Flagships
 

Don't know if this has been discussed before figured I'd bring it up. If you look at any of the great sci-fi out there ie: star treck, star wars, bab5, etc. There is always a flagship. Take the super star destroyer Executor from the empire or the Enterprise from the federation. That is something I think that SE4 is missing. The ability to build a flagship for a fleet. Obviously there would have to be a limited amount an empire can build if not just one. But maybe tie it to population or something. Every 20B people you have you can make a flagship for a fleet. As for the size of it. Make it ship research 12 after baseships and make em bigger then baseships but not as slow. Also they should use the dreadnaughts pic not the baseship. Of course this ideas probably will never be used in SE4 but it's still fun to discuss for SE5 http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Flagships
 

Here is an idea for that.

Instead of having a flagship as being ship construction 12 and only available late in the game (since historically there have been flagships in all times) have a checkbox that can be checked in ship design [ ] IS Flagship
this would add say 20% or so extra space to the selected hulltype at extra cost and would only be available to be checked at certain conditions IE 20B pop or whatnot.

Additionally I would rather see it being based on the number of ships you have rather than the number of pop. Every 100 or 50 ships etc.

With this as the setup you can limit peaceful empires with lots of pop but few ships having almost nothing but flagships. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif
It would also allow for flagships at a much earlier point in the game with cruiser sizes etc and allows for more varied flagships later in the game as races that prefer smaller more manueverable ships might prefer to have a BC flagship since all their ships are BC rather than some slow clunky massive thing like their neighbors do.

[This message has been edited by Cyrien (edited 21 October 2001).]

Re: Flagships
 

Doesn't "flagship" just designate the ship with the fleet admiral, and not a special design? If anything, it'd be the Fleet Leader in each fleet, and there should be severe consequences of having that ship destroyed in combat (or, for that matter, of transferring it to another fleet -- either the fleet experience should be reduced, or it should stay but the ship's experience is reduced).

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: Flagships
 

In games I play, my flagship is one ship, the biggest hull I have the tech for, and a separate design loaded with special components and defenses.

Take a ship of the line, and replace one weapon with specialty equipment. Then add 50% to the price by installing P&N Buckytube Gel Armor, and/or using premium components.
That gives a typical, basic flagship design.

Re: Flagships
 

Why not add a flagship component that has abilities that would be found in a flagship.

Re: Flagships
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Why not add a flagship component that has abilities that would be found in a flagship.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>A moddable component is a good idea, since you'll never get a consensus on what abilities it ought to have.

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Cap'n Q
My first mod! Hypermaze quadrant
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

Re: Flagships
 

problem with a component is that u can then build them on any ship. Actually Cyrien basing it off of number of ships would be better http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif good point. And yeah the flagship is basically the command ship and would have a captain on it but it is also usually the most advanced, beefed up, toughest SOB in the fleet http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif. Thus, I agree that it should bring a small bonus to whatever fleet its attached to be it by way of exp or morale if thats ever put in. Cyrien a check or whatever to designate a design as a flagship would be a good way of doing it and allow for any size ship which i suppose would be more practical.

Re: Flagships
 

You can do this yourself Chewy027. I have added several class of ships to my personal game:

Juggernought
Capital Ship
Gun Boat
Cutter
War Cruiser.

I then designed 5 new ship images for all the races I use.

I increased the cost of production of the Juggernought to be very expensive. (VERY).

I did not like the idea of Base Ships, so I deleted them, and used the images for the Juggernoughts.

I also increased the cost of researching ships by adding 2 extra zero's to the research cost in the research data file.



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New Age Ship Yards

"We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats! They invade our space and we fall back -- they assimilate entire worlds and we fall back! Not again! The line must be drawn here -- this far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!" -- Captain Picard STNG

Borg Breen Species 8472 Cardassian Dominion STNG Ferengi Klingon Romulan
Trek Movie era TOS Illuminati Starwolf

Re: Flagships
 

yikes that is real expensive http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif I kinda knew i could do it myself but thought it would be a cool feature too http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif You know something maybe put in by MM some day.....

Re: Flagships
 

I like the idea of flagship, how about if you could add a "command control" addition to this ship, one per fleet, this could increase the chances of PD's hitting. fleet given a defensive bonus, take out the command ship and every ship is then on its own... This addition could be expensive to add and take up ? amount of space. This would make it worthwhile to have and also for a fleet to protect it in combat.Also makes opposing fleet target it for high priority

just some ideas mac

[This message has been edited by mac5732 (edited 23 October 2001).]

Re: Flagships
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>this could increase the chances of PD's hitting<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why would you want that? I know that PD does miss occaisionally, but it happens so rarely that I can't recall how long it's been since I've seen it.

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Cap'n Q
My first mod! Hypermaze quadrant
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

Re: Flagships
 

How about arranging it so you could not actually use Fleet tactics without a command ship?

Without a command ship it's just a bunch of ships loosely working together in an attack. With a Command ship (or a ship with a Command Component, "Flag Bridge") better Fleet Tactics are available?

Anybody familiar with the "Honor Harrington" series of books would understand what is possible with a good Fleet Commander on board!

RhineStone Cowboy

Re: Flagships
 

whatever it may be component or just a designated design i think it would be a cool feature. like the idea of it effecting the whole fleet that would give it more of a commandship/flagship feel then. and i also like the cowboy's idea. that would add some more tactical thought to the game and give more importance to a flagship.

Re: Flagships
 

Cap, I was just trying to come up with reasons for a command control ship. If PD's ok they way they are, then what if the CC componet did something like cowboy said, or make offensive weapons more effective no matter their range, say increase effectivness by 2-5% with CC, normal without, or maybe even lose a % for the effectivness of the fleet fire power including PD's if the ship is lost? A CC ship has to have something worth its cost or why bother to build. Also should there be a limit as to the number you can build? max of 1 per fleet, but what about the overall total? I don't think it should be unlimited as to the overall number, this way makes them even more important to build and protect in combat...

just some ideas mac

Re: Flagships
 

Cyrien suggested having the number of command/flagships tied to the overall number of ships you have. Say for every 50 or so you are allowed 1 flagship. Another way this could be done is by pop although i like cyrien's suggestion. But for every XX billion pop you can build a command ship. But yes there has to be a limit and a determinant as to how many can be built.

Re: Flagships
 

Here is an idea for its importance.

Fleets may be formed without a flagship but and use tactics and recieve no penalty etc...
BUT
only flagships carry fleet exp. A fleet without a flagship has 0 exp always. As soon as a flagship joins it gain exp equal to the flagships fleet exp. This represents the fact that it is the flagships commander giving the orders to the fleet and establishing a fleet exp bonus.

This gives good cause to knock out that flagship if it has a high fleet exp.

A limited number I would agree on. I would say base it on the number of ships available. Make it a setting that can be changed when creating a game like the max number of ships to be built etc. Thus different players could have it range across different spectrums. 1 flagship to 1 ship or 1 flagship to 0 ships or 1 flagship to 100 ship or even have it disable for those that dislike em.

Just some ideas.

Re: Flagships
 

Keep the maintenance cost high on the flagships and people won't build so many. as well as (If it can be arranged) have it so only 1 flagship works in a fleet. Either thay can't be joined in a fleet or the bonus is reversed (Two flag admirals that have big Egos!) or only the biggest modifier applies.

That way it does you no good to have every ship a flagship....

RhineStone Cowboy

Re: Flagships
 

The more I read the Posts, I think maybe we should incorporate 2 different type ships. 1st, we already basically designate which ship moves 1st in tactical, what if we make this the Flagship of each fleet? Give the experience or whatever bonus automatically when you designate the ship with the number 1. All fleets have a flagship so I don't see limiting these. It would not pertain to single ships. The problem would be in strategic battles but if you designate which ship moves lst as currently done, this would automatically make it the flagship or be able to assign a number which correlates to its movement. example, flagship designated #5, would move 5th and be flagship. I hope I make sense here, 2nd, the CC ship would effect, increases or decreases in different fighting abilites of the fleet and would be limited to a specific number to be built overall. This way a flagship would increase/decrease moral, experience etc, the CC would affect increases/decreases in fighting abilities. In order to accomodate these or similiar ideas, we must keep simple with the least amount of hard code changes as possible.

just some ideas mac

Re: Flagships
 

I love this idea of fleet experience being tied to a flagship. That could be an option at game startup, and possibly set values for number of ships per flaship and maximum number of flagships there as well.

A couple of questions, though. What minimum number of ships would be necessary to build a flaghip? (Could I make the first ship I build a flagship, or what I actually need to mass a fleet first?) Also, if the number of available flagships is tied to total number of ships (i.e. 0-49 ships = 0 flagships, 50-99 = 1 flagship, etc.), would non-warships be included in this total?

I can see pros and cons to each question, so I leave these to the powers of consensus. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Quikngruvn

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Stay alert. Trust no one. Keep your laser handy.
--from the RPG Paranoia, now my PBW mantra

Re: Flagships
 

to keep it simplistic i'd say count all ships for the determinant. So say every 50 you can build another flagship of course the number would be changeable. I like the idea of having the fleet experience tied to the flagship as well. Gives more importance to them. I also agree only 1 flagship per fleet should have an effect. If you put two in a fleet only one's exp gets counted. So it would be a waste of exp to have two in a fleet. And if we would ever get morale implemented into exp it should boost morale as well. Mac i see what you mean about all fleets having a designated flagship already but they really only pertain to movement and formations. One of the suggestions was that without a flagship there could be no tactics used, ie formations. This combined with the exp a flagship would give would make them very valuable. So i think that the flagship would take the place of what is in existence now.

Re: Flagships
 

Making flagships very expensive to built and to maintain coupled with only one being effective in a fleet should be enough without tying it to some artificial milepost that allows you to built one. 50 ships, what kind of ships? I can build empty escorts with no engines to keep costs down and make them easy and fast to build to get around the ship limit. And what happens if as a result of a battle you drop below the threshhold of 50, do you lose the flagship? The point is, if they are expensive, you could never afford to let them alone, they would always have to have escorts which further drives up the costs of maintaining a fleet having one. And you could never just build them for a rainy day like you do fighter/troops/satellites. The cost should serve as an adequate limiting factor. Additionally, flagships should be so full of command components, etc. granting the fleet whatever bonuses it receives to leave little room for weapons, meaning it needs and should have a lot of friends to do the fighting and even a fleet of flagships shouldn't be near as good as a single flagship and same number of the best attack ships. Further the happiness/experience/morale of the race should be seriously affected by the loss of one as this represent the pride and joy of your armed force, the best of the best so to speak and its loss would reasonant throughout your empire.

Re: Flagships
 

I don't know if assigning a number of ships needed before being able to build flagship would work. Questions from other Posts here bring up valid questions, as to what happens when you fall below that number etc. Also what would we do with the training facilities if we base experience or attach experience to flagships and still make them important in the game? Maybe base it on fleets. If you have say 5 fleets, you would be able to build up to 5 flagships, as your fleets increase, this would allow you to build up to that number but no more. Then you would have choice of either building them or not depending on the cost and what you could afford. once built, they remain in the game and count towards whatever number is assigned even if you fall below the number of fleets. The training facilities could still train up to whatever limit is set, but with a flagship present it would give an experiece bonus above (pick a number) above what it currently has. Therefore, you could train your fleet but would pick up the additional bonus only with a flagship present...I hope I explained this right....

just some ideas mac

Re: Flagships
 

yeah mac that makes sense. Good ideas. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Flagships
 

OK Modders, Here's the challenge....

Within the existing Game (newest Patch) Can we implement what is being discussed?

Or something simlar to:

New hull Designs (i.e. Command Cruiser): With a high Maintenance cost and that are the only hulls that can accept new components such as:

Flag Bridge(Used in addition to regular bridge. Must exist before any bonuses from other components are applied)

Fleet Fire Control: Bonuse to Attack

Fleet Defense Control: Bonus to Defense (or if certain mods are in use a bonus to Point-Defense)

Fleet Communications: Bonus for combat movement or xperience?

Any others?

Only bonuses from 1 ship can be applied per fleet.


So Can something like this be done?


RhineStone Cowboy

Re: Flagships
 

In many mods I get Messages along the lines of "component cannot be used on this ship type". It seems important to me that the new components should only be used on the special "command-hulls".

The command-hulls may not be super expensive to build, but should be very expensive to maintain (is maintenance calculated directly from cost?) because all the best cuts of Alberta beef would go to the Admirals ship. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Realistically tho, all the new equipment and excellent personell would end up on the command ship, so it should have a fantastically high maintenance cost compared to the other ships.

Finally, I like the idea from Beck, only one of the special components should have a combat effect on the sector. This will keep people from loading up on just command-ships in a particular sector.

Just my thoughts,
Jimbob


&gt;Typo&lt;

[This message has been edited by jimbob (edited 25 October 2001).]

Re: Flagships
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>OK Modders, Here's the challenge....
Within the existing Game (newest Patch) Can we implement what is being discussed?
Or something simlar to:
New hull Designs (i.e. Command Cruiser): With a high Maintenance cost and that are the only hulls that can accept new components such as:
Flag Bridge(Used in addition to regular bridge. Must exist before any bonuses from other components are applied)
Fleet Fire Control: Bonuse to Attack
Fleet Defense Control: Bonus to Defense (or if certain mods are in use a bonus to Point-Defense)
Fleet Communications: Bonus for combat movement or xperience?
Any others?
Only bonuses from 1 ship can be applied per fleet.
So Can something like this be done?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1) Flagship equals major maintenance.
So totally done http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
Use the 50% maintenance ability from bases, but multiply the "value1" amount by -20.
That gives Flagships 10x more maintenance compared to regular ships.
I reccommend putting this ability into the "Flag Bridge", so that the standard hulls can be reused.

Having separate fleet-bonus-generating sub-stations would make it difficult to limit their use to flagships.

You could put all of the abilities into the FlagBridge, and make it 150KT in size. That would guarantee that they are only used on flagships by definition http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

It may also be possible to come up with a scheme of +ve and -ve maintenance changes to limit their use.

It could also be set so that the maintenance on Flag equipment is extremely high, but one is required in every fleet in order to have a chance of winning.
If not having a flagship saves you 20K per turn, but drops your accuracy against flagship-using enemy fleets to 1%, you're toast.
If flagship parts were made as expensive as SM, you would limit them nicely. Forcing them to use a Flag Bridge could be difficult, unless you included that space in the specific bonus components.
IE, have "Flag Bridge + Fire control", "Flag Bridge + Defense Control", "Flag Bridge + Fire/Defense Control combo"... etc, all as single (large) components.

IF component restrictions by hull are possible, that would work great, but I don't think the patch included support for them.


[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 25 October 2001).]