Noobs, Vets, & AIs: An evolving concept for a new series.
 

By the gods, i've had an epiphany! It is nothing short of divine inspiration I tell you. :angel

In the aftermath of the great Noobs vs. Vets series, I had some ideas for possible follow up games. One of these ideas was a Noobs vs. AI concept where a small team of noobs would face off against twice their number of computer players.

Another of these ideas (not completely mine in origin) was having multiple small mixed teams of noobs and vets compete with one another.

While I think either one of these ideas has merit individually and could prove to be valuable learning experiences, combining these two ideas of mine, seems to make even greater sense and with twice the benefits:

1. It makes sense thematically: With the defeat of the vets, noobs and vets now co-exist peacefully. This explains why they can be on the same teams together.

2. The rise of a new menace (this time led by the AI) brings noob and vet alike together to confront this new threat. But the new teams are quarrelsome and can't get along so after dealing with the AI threat they vie for dominance.

3. 4 teams composed of 1 vet champion or hall of famer (acting as captain), 1 intermediate level player and 2 noobs allows for players of all skill levels to join in on the action.

4. The fifth team of AI players allows for some compstomping action, provides an interesting twist, and can be placed in between the competing teams forcing the teams to deal with the AI menace first.

5. At 20 nations (5X4) a series of games could be played in each of the era's without having to worry about water nations. Beginning in EA and proceeding to LA, the AI menace could be made increasingly more difficult.

6. A complete custom made map would not be neccessary, this could be done with either a random map or a suitable pre-existing map.

7. Noobs would gain greater experience vs. the AI and would benefit from learning directly from the more experienced players on each of their teams.

Feel free to post suggestions and to join in on the discussion. This post is a work in progress and will be updated to reflect game settings as they are formalized.

Thanks.

IMPERATOR.CAESAR.LVCIVS.SEPTIMIVS.SEVERVS.PERTINAX .AVGVSTV.SPIVS

Re: Noobs vs. AI's: New series. Conceptual thread/discussion.
 

Re: Noobs vs. AI's: New series. Conceptual thread/discussion.
 

Good luck with this one Sept. The NvV games were great :)

As far as I am aware actually making a map from scatch inc. the map picture will be a lot of work. While simply making a map file with set starts and perhaps some special sites and possibly boosts for the initial AI armies is far easier and quicker.

I am also not sure of the virtue of a symetrical map in these circumstances. You have a team and your opponents won't care if they are being cheated or boosted. Mixing in sea like you are is likely to help human players more than AIs (who may not be able to handle the switch between the two well) and gives a huge boost to amphibious player powers. Remember what happened in NvV3? Those powers with easy access to water could get a dozen or so extra provinces almost for free. Even one AI sea nation changes this. And the choke points are both probably in the wrong place (not where the AIs will meet the players) and even if they were will simply be a big boost for the players who will use them and artificially boost certain powers with good PD.

So if you do have a problem getting someone to design a map for you then just pick a map you like and ask someone to set the starting locations for you.

I could do this. I can also make the AIs allied, add some special sites (if desired) and give the AIs some starting boosts if needed/wanted. I think the AI Pretenders can also be designed (but I am not sure) so I can probably give decent scales or blesses to the AIs.

But I can't design the whole map.

Re: Noobs vs. AI's: New series. Conceptual thread/discussion.
 

Thanks for taking the time to read and respond with your input.

You are correct. The introduction of water is intended to be exploitable by human land based nations, though I wasn't sure how good the AI is at actually getting into the water. In the case the human players need an additional edge, this would give them one.

The custom artwork on this map will require some work and is the toughest part of the map making process. AI setup and placements will be the easy part. I am no artist, so I was hoping to get one of our resident Dom3 map artists to do the graphics. I believe Pasha, Ballbarian, Lutes, Cleveland, have done this type of work.

If not possible, the closest thing may a modified version of one of the WOG maps.

Re: Noobs vs. AI's: New series. Conceptual thread/discussion.
 

Yeah, unless the AI is playing a naturally amphibious nation it does tend to suck at getting into the water. It basically has to luck into amphibious indies. So bearing that in mind, I have a suggestion (which will also make the game a little harder). Make a random map that is either tall and thin, or a map that is very wide and fairly short. Put the noobs in the middle with AI nations on both sides. You will more or less get the funneling effect since each player will only have to defend a certain number of provinces, and you can do this without needing someone to make a map for you. If you are set on having the map come out to your specification however, I think in all probability you'll have to make it yourself. So if you have any games with a map editor you think might be able to do what you want....

I would aim for making this game as hard as possible. Pre-set gods for each AI with sensible builds would help, as well as setting them to impossible. I believe that is doable with mapping commands, though you'd have to ask someone more knowledgeable about mapping than me. Set the AIs aggressive, low indies... I would not recommend putting the resource multipliers too high though, actually I would stick to normal.

The only problem with giving the AI "powerhouse nations" is that it actually tends to do pretty poorly with them. If you want to give the AI strong bless nations, I recall someone having made an auto divine bless mod that would be a good idea to use. And, probably the nation that the AI is best with is LA Ermor ;).

Re: Noobs vs. AI's: New series. Conceptual thread/discussion.
 

Well, if you are going the gods by hand I guess maxing the resources of all units the AI shouldn't build (like the mid-cost warriors for Mictlan) really helps.

Re: Noobs vs. AI's: New series. Conceptual thread/discussion.
 

Yes, apparently according to the mapedit.doc file and advice I received from Gandalf and others, the AI players can be set up entirely via map commands such as:

#computerplayer
#allies
#specstart

at a minimum, and further customization via:

#god 40 1026 -- Carrion Dragon
#comname "Komm Poast"
#dominionstr

and other commands which can be appended or added to the .map file.

If you'd like to handle this portion once a map is created or selected let me know. Of course if custom pretender builds are used this information would have to be kept from the human team to avoid spoiling any surprises or giving us another advantage. Since players won't see the .map file, it shouldn't be a problem but whoever does it would likely have too much information to actively participate.

I wonder if the computer would choose a random god is none is assigned via map commands.

Re: Noobs vs. AI's: New series. Conceptual thread/discussion.
 

A random map or a pre-existing one would have to to if I can't get a custom one made to my liking. Your right, I'd probably need to do it myself.

I think I understand the basics of it:

Create a tga or rgb file using GIMP, Photoshop, or some other suitable graphics program. Probably need like 4 layers, one for the underlying land and sea masses, 1 for province locales (indicated via white pixels), another for the province borders, and another for the drawing or placement of trees, mountain ridges, and other graphics.

The file can then be loaded into the map editor where the appropriate terrain masks and province neighbors can be added.

I might try and give it a whirl, though I think I may lack the artistic skills to make it look realistic rather than artificial (coastlines would need to look like actual coastlines with crags and irregularities, rivers wouldn't be totally straight, etc.).

Still hoping some worthy might step up to assist us.:D

I would like the games to get progressively more difficult if possible.

That being said, making custom pretender builds for 10,12, or even 14 AI nations each time may be a lot of work but would certainly add to the difficulty. I'd be fine either way really. Plain random gods, scales, and such would seem more like what one would encounter in a quick single player game though, which is sort of what I was aiming for.

Re: Noobs vs. AI's: New series. Conceptual thread/discussion.
 

You could start the first game with quick random gods for the AIs, sprinkle in a few well-designed ones for the next game, and then fo the last game have all pre-designed gods. That is one of the largest factors in AI difficulty anyway. Another would be to start the AIs off with some thugs or useful magic items.

As for the map, you could maybe ask elmokki for tips. He made a bunch of custom maps based off of... cradle of dominion? I don't remember which map for sure, but he was able to make very nice-looking maps using pre-existing map images.

Re: Noobs vs. AI's: New series. Conceptual thread/discussion.
 

Heheh, I can sense the hand of Gandalf in this game :)

Some comments:

1) Play EA -> MA -> LA. The computer will do worst in EA (high magic) and best in LA (good troops)

2) Consider the NI (No Independents) mod. I have heard SP players swear that it makes the AI far more functional since they do not uselessly spam garbage indies.

3) Give the computer premade pretenders - if you can, particularly give them non-crippling scales

4) Indies 3-4. Enough to make human players do *some* investment in indy forces, but not enough to confound the AI.

5) 1-3 Starting provs. Will prevent AI from crippling resource shortage w/ resource heavy nations

6) Step up resource multiple as you step up AI difficulty. You will be amazed at the armies it can build (however not feed, alas!)

Re: Noobs vs. AI's: New series. Conceptual thread/discussion.
 

I have to say, this is the least interesting of the ideas you were floating at the end of NvV III. You might want to make sure there is sufficient player interest in something like this before spending the time making a map.

Re: Noobs vs. AI's: New series. Conceptual thread/discussion.
 

I think starting EA and working up is more or less the way I would take it, and contrary to Squirrelloid I like the idea myself.

Especially if I was a really new player.

I never played SP and jumped right into MP, that's why I am so bad at it (LOL) and ask so many questions (hence the Captain rank).

If you where taking Terrible somewhat experienced players I would be your guy!!!!

Good Luck:up:

Re: Noobs vs. AI's: New series. Conceptual thread/discussion.
 

It is good to hear from my former teammates on these matters.

Thanks rdonj, Ironhawk, and Grudgebringer for the progression suggestions. EA seems a good starting era, as is using custom gods incrementally.

Squirelloid is correct, I do need to discern interest before I set about the time consuming work of creating a map (which would take some time) but of course that is part of the purpose of this thread to "gauge interest and feasability".

I myself do love a good compstomp every now and then. We had many extremely talented and energetic noobs in NvV, I consider Squirreloid one of them, so AI players may not be much of a challenge to them. But for players such as myself, Grudge, brand new players, and those older players with the courage to admit it, whose skills aren't top rank, might benefit from and enjoy such a game. Who knows, I may even get my beat by the comp.

Since there are many other players who like myself jumped into MP without mastering SP, I may loosen the MP qualifications to 10 full games or less.

On my other game ideas, I am waiting for former noobs from all the games to get more experience under their belts before going for the alumni idea and the multiple mixed team idea which is also good will require plenty of available players and so I'd like to wait a bit.

Re: Noobs vs. AI's: New series. Conceptual thread/discussion.
 

I'm not sure I'd count as a newbie for this kind of game. I do enjoy killing AIs, but I'm still not sure I should take someone else's slot. I do think that on the whole this is probably the least interesting of the options you proposed, and arguably the most work, so I'd keep that in mind.

I agree with most of what's been posted so far in the thread. You want to set independent strength to 3 or 4, you want to use Better Independents (you may even consider modding nations to make their crap troops too expensive or resource-intensive to build, but that would be a *lot* of work), EA<MA<LA in terms of how well the AIs function, and custom-designed pretenders will make the AI much, much stronger. In general, AI pretenders need to focus more on scales and blesses than on other aspects because the AI doesn't know how to use other types of pretenders as well. If you need someone to do some pretender design, I'll volunteer.

Re: Noobs vs. AI's: New series. Conceptual thread/discussion.
 

Yes, I hope I will have the time to do something unique mapwise.

Would like to hear from more people. If someone else has an opinion, speak up and don't be shy. Currently one can play against AI nations via one of the open games on the dom3minions server but not with the numbers of computer players I am suggesting.

Does anyone think that a team of 4 or 5 noobs would have too much difficulty defeating 8 or 10 AI's even without custom AI builds?

There must be some interest in playing against the AI, as quite of few of the available games on the server are filled and active.

Does anyone think that the AI would fair better in LA vs. EA? If so why?

Re: Noobs vs. AI's: New series. Conceptual thread/discussion.
 

Something else worth considering is possibly combining this idea with that of the multi-team mixed Noobs vs. Vets idea.

2 teams of 4 noobs each led by a veteran placed on a random map with a team of 4 or 5 extremely tough AI players (with custom builds) in between them.

We could even do 4 teams of humans arranged around (N/S/E/W) the AI player "team".

The presence of the AI players would introduce an interesting element to the game. Communication from the vet team captains to their noobs would be essential in not only defeating the other human teams but in also dealing with and defeating the AI team.

Let me hear from all those interested in this possibility.

Re: Noobs vs. AI's: New series. Conceptual thread/discussion.
 

I don't think 4 or 5 noobs would have any difficulty defeating 8 or 10 random non-impossible AIs, unless they were of the completely green and untested variety.

Ironhawk said they'd do better in LA due to LA having better troops. However, you should really incorporate at least the better independents mod into the game if you're goign to do that or they will just recruit massive amounts of chaff indies.

Re: Noobs vs. AI's: New series. Conceptual thread/discussion.
 

Oops, sorry meant to say does anyone think the computer would fair better in EA vs. LA. In other words, are there any opinions to the contrary? and if so why?

Re: Noobs vs. AI's: New series. Conceptual thread/discussion.
 

i'm interested to play another team game

Re: Noobs and Vets vs. AI's
 

By the gods, i've had an epiphany! It is nothing short of divine inspiration I tell you. :angel

Combining these two ideas of mine (AI menace and multi-team noobs and vets) makes a great deal of sense:

1. It makes sense thematically: With the defeat of the vets, noobs and vets now co-exist peacefully. This explains why they can be on the same teams together.

2. The rise of a new menace (this time led by the AI) brings noob and vet alike together to confront this new threat. But the new teams are quarrelsome and can't get along so after dealing with the AI threat they vie for dominance.

3. 4 teams composed of 1 vet champion or hall of famer (acting as captain), 1 intermediate level player and 2 noobs allows for players of all skill levels to join in on the action.

4. The fifth team of AI players allows for some compstomping action, provides an interesting twist, and can be placed in between the competing teams forcing the teams to deal with the AI menace first.

5. At 20 nations (5X4) a series of games could be played in each of the era's without having to worry about water nations. Beginning in EA and proceeding to LA, the AI menace could be made increasingly more difficult.

6. A complete custom made map would not be neccessary, this could be done with either a random or suitable pre-existing map.

Sounds like the makings of a new game and thread if people would be interested.:D

Re: Noobs, Vets, and AI's: An evolving concept for a new series.
 

Random idea: teams of noobs led by a vet racing to kill AIs? (That might be interesting, if the victory condition involved killing *your* AIs first--of course, you could interfere with the other team directly if you thought that was more beneficial than going after your own AIs.)

I'd be more interesting playing in a game like that than a pure against-AIs game, I'll admit.

(We cross-posted, SS.)

I'd be interested in that format, potentially, though I'm not sure how much of a noob I count as...

Re: Noobs, Vets, and AI's: An evolving concept for a new series.
 

Yep, that's the idea. The teams would sort of have to work together to defeat the AI team first (as the AI team would be physically located between them and would be attacking all non-computer players) before destroying each other. They could initiate early remote or flying attacks vs. other human teams but it would be in everyone's interest to tackle the AI menace first.

If you have more than 5 complete MP and 5 SP games under your belt you could qualify for one of the intermediate positions.

We'd need 4 top ranked or very experience vets, 4 Intermediate level players, and 8 noobs to comprise the 4 human teams.

And a non-playing person to design the 4 AI builds. One of those builds could be more powerful than the others effectively giving the AI team a captain of their own.

Very exciting prospect. The independents mod rdonj mentioned would make for an even tougher AI menace.

Re: Noobs, Vets, and AI's: An evolving concept for a new series.
 

How does one stop the AIs from fighting each other?

Also, ultimately 16 people vs. 4 AIs sounds to be a very fast game. Bless-rush nations are going to be at a premium. I'm not convinced anyone even gets to real remote attack spells in any notable quantity before the game is over.

Re: Noobs, Vets, and AI's: An evolving concept for a new series.
 

A simple map command keeps the AIs from attacking one another.

The defeat of the AI team is only the first objective or hurdle of the game.

The actual victory condition is to eliminate all other teams (including the AI team).

Re: Noobs, Vets, & AIs: An evolving concept for a new series.
 

you could make super-powered mod nations for the ai. then it might be a challenge to defeat them.

Re: Noobs, Vets, & AIs: An evolving concept for a new series.
 

That's possible, it will certainly be a challenge for any one of the teams to defeat all the other teams including the AIs.

Re: Noobs, Vets, & AIs: An evolving concept for a new series.
 

I'm going to start a new thread for the game and we will see who is available and interested.

It can be found here: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43928