Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

Better Know a Pretender: the Stillborns

I debated whether or not to do the Wyrm next. For the most part, any regular viewer on this forum knows that the Wyrm is an excellent early expansion pretender, but since he's such a classic he needs to be included. Yet, thinking about the Wyrm got me thinking about why he's so great, but thats a two way street. Thinking about what makes some Pretenders great led me to think about what makes other pretenders “bad.” In the spirit of “off the beaten path,” I decided to devote this posting of Better Know a Pretender to some of the biggest waste of points to ever entice players.

The Manticore

This Pretender has to be a case study in “almost, but not quite.” Just looking at his stats he seems to have a lot of what players look for an awake, Turn-2 expander. He has more HP than Dragons and almost as many as the Wyrm. He comes with Fear standard for routing independents and synergizing with Awe (obtained through Dominion-9 or 10). He also has two attacks per round shortening the combat so as to not let fatigue accumulate. More over, he can fly giving players a lot more options in which independent province he attacks next so as to not slow down expansion. Best of all, he costs ZERO pretender points. Only the Crone and a few immobile pretenders share that distinction, certainly no other flying expanders.

So, why is he on the failure list? Primarily, because he can't stay alive. His immediate competitors for fast expansion have the right properties to survive a horde of independents whacking him or it. For example, the Wyrm comes with 11 protection and 10% regeneration (which is a lot with his high HP). The Manticore has a meager 6 protection and no HP saving regeneration. Dragons have 18 protection and a lot more Fear to make Awe more effective. The Ghost King has 18 defense and is ethereal. The Manticore makes do with a paltry 12 defense. Making the picture worse, our beleaguered friend Manty has four encumbrance, which may not seem like a lot, but it adds quickly enough to mean more hits to lost defense and criticals slipping past his already meager protection. Then, his second attack has only 12 Attack Skill, meaning it misses a good portion of the time. Finally, he only has a base Dominion-2. Which means his cheaper base cost is eaten up by having to pay more points to get him to Dominion-10 which provides Awe-2, the only way he stays alive to kill more than 3 chaff. Adding a path for 50 points is an option, but it all comes back to “opportunity costs.” The other traditional expanders do not need an extra path to expand, thats just gravy to help the nation out.

The obvious thing to do is put Manty asleep (as a setting, not a euphemism for death), add a path, and when he awakes your nation will have researched some spells and maybe have some handy forged items. Yet, this is where some of his other weaknesses come to light. When dealing with a low protection chassis, the obvious solution is to add armor. However, the Manticore does not have a chest slot. Or hands or feet for that matter. There are other Pretenders while not offering the same HP none the less can utilize more of what your nation has to offer a year in while giving more in return.

So, is there any purpose to picking up Manty? Well, his Stinger attack does look good on paper. It has 17 Attack Skill to hit opponents, is Armor Piercing, and delivers a dollop of Death Poison. That is ideal to potentially take out high value targets like enemy pretenders. To reduce risk, the Manticore could be scripted with (Attack Monster)x5, retreat, and have some cheap defensive gear like an Amulet of Luck. Death Poison seems to inflict about 30 points of poison damage. That will put down most Pretenders not immune to Poison or with regeneration. Unfortunately, the Wyrm, a major competitor in the early game, has both. The Prince of Death is also Poison Immune, though his smaller HP total makes him otherwise more vulnerable to a 27 damage AP attack. However, the Manticore will eat an unaugmented Cyclops for breakfast. Also, the Manty is a big fellow, size-6. If the player is up against Caelum, Arcoscephale, and Bandar Log, this is the cheapest possible counter to tramplers. Yet, the best Dominions 3 strategies typically get a lot more out of their pretender than either of these uses combined. This entire section might as well have been Wyrm>>>Manticore.

The Freak Lord

He's the kind of Pretender you don't take home to mother. Or use often. Or use ever, really. OK, he's a rainbow, which is admittedly a class of pretenders that see less playtime than the bless chassises or the Super Combatants. Yet, even when the situation calls for a rainbow, players have to search their souls for a reason to click on him.

This may seem surprising. Yes, he has some odd bonuses that don't make much sense on a low HP rainbow pretender. Namely, fear and trample. Some of the apprehension about choosing the Freak Lord may be due to not wanting to “pay” for these bonuses. This, however, is unfounded. The Freak Lord's price tag, 40 points, is right in line with other rainbow Pretenders. The Frost Father and Great Enchantress cost 55 points, but do come with two starting paths and some other benefits. The other common mounted rainbow pretender, the Archmage, costs only 30 points, but the Freak Lord has a third miscellaneous slot which more than makes up for the slight price difference.

Plus, he has a couple of handy things other pretenders don't. It is true that fear and trample don't come in handy very often. However, in the case of a rout, trample will let the Freak Lord escape by running over his fleeing men. Not much, but something. Being Mounted is more impressive. It means extra encumbrance from armor will not add to his meelee encumbrance. OK, he's unlikely to ever be risked in close combat, but its something. Mounted also adds +3 defense, and with a base defense of 14 and the +3 defense of a Quarterstaff, that comes to a total of 20 defense. Thats nice to have should something go terribly wrong. Finally, being mounted gives the Freak Lord three Map Move, which is probably its biggest advantage. Did I mention he has three miscellaneous slots? Because that's a big advantage as it lets him equip more boosters, lack of feet aside.

So, am I suggesting the Freak Lord has been misjudged and should get more playtime as a viable rainbow pretender? Unfortunately, no, and for one reason: Blood magic is the weakest magic to have on a pretender. You see, Blood Magic is different. It requires a steady supply of blood slaves to work. To get blood slaves, a player needs to blood hunt, which requires national blood mages to do efficiently. So, you are either a blood nation or you are not as blood mages are rarely found as independents or mercenaries. If you are playing a blood nation, then your nation will have enough blood slaves to just empower your pretender and spend the points elsewhere. It is possible for non-Blood nations to “boot strap” in by somehow getting 50 blood slaves either through trade or a host of commanders blood hunting inefficiently.

Or, you might put some Blood Magic on your pretender. For the most efficient use of points, the amount of blood magic needed on a pretender for boot strapping is exactly... One. Basically, there is a check based on level of Blood magic. A non-Blood mage has a 10% chance of finding any blood slaves while blood hunting. Blood-1, 50%, Blood-2, 90%, and Blood-3 and better 100%. Wait, you say, doesn't that mean we should buy Blood-2? No, because your pretender only needs to find 5 Blood Slaves, at which point it can forge a Sanguine Dousing Rod and will then effectively hunt as a Blood-2 mage. If your nation “needs” blood slaves faster than that, the Fountain of Blood is a better choice. For a rainbow, you want just enough blood to prime the national pump and then move your pretender onto more important duties.

Meanwhile, other paths have much more pressing needs to buy higher. Astral needs three levels to be optimally effective. Air magic should probably be as high as four levels. Then, one of the most important roles a rainbow pretender plays is site searching. To efficiently site search, the pretender should have 2 or 3 levels in a path. However, Blood sites are very rare and the points spent on blood magic are points underutilized while the rainbow goes site searching. And thats what the stigma of the Freak Lord adds up to, points. Its better to start with a chassis with paths you need to get to two, or three, or four or even higher and then just spend the 10 extra points to pick up a level of blood.

So, is there any reason to pick the Freak Lord? Well, the three miscellaneous slots (along side still having a head) bodes well for Astral magic. The Freak Lord can equip Four Astral boosters, without having to have access to uniques. That means he only needs Astral-5 to cast Wish. Or with enough Air magic, the Freak Lord can forge Robes of the Archmagi, a universal magic booster which the Freak Lord can equip for a total of 5 Astral Boosters without a unique. However, the most useful Blood item is the Blood Stone, an Earth booster and gem generator requiring Earth-2, Blood-3 to forge. Some players might want to start out with Blood-3 to start forging this ASAP. Yet, I wince at putting Earth magic on a pretender without feet who will be unable to equip Earth Boots. More importantly, when I use a rainbow I want four to five paths, sometimes more. Its almost always more efficient to pick another rainbow chassis.

The Vampire Queen

Apparently, in the long gone days of Dominion-2 before I joined the Illwinter faithful, this damned monarch was one of the most popular choices for a Super Combatant. Now, she lives in a Florida retirement community off of royalty checks that still trickle in from her glory days in the spotlight. VH1 had a special, maybe you saw it. Surprisingly, she really looked like she had a lot going on. Yet, much like the Manticore, it just does not come together. Her biggest advantage is immortality. Thats a huge benefit to any pretender. Attack without worrying about death. Cast a powerful global, don't worry about her dying on the battlefield and loosing it. She also has flight, regeneration, stealth, and all the benefits of the undead (cold immunity, poison immunity, and zero encumbrance). She also gets a slow trickle of vampire free spawn based on Dominion. Finally, her basic attack is Life Drain, which restores fatigue and HP.

So, whats so bad? This package costs a whopping 175 pretender points. The only other Pretender off the top of my mind even close is the All Father, and its much easier to make a case for his 150 point price tag. And for those 175 points, the VQ only has a base dominion of 1, which effectively raises the cost even higher no matter what the player needs. If the player wants to use her as an awake Super Combatant, the player will fail. Regen means nothing in the face of low HP, 23, and 0 protection. She dies even faster than the Manticore while killing far less. Sure, she'll be back ready to try again, but even with Awe-2 (purchased with an obscene amount of points), she will die without taking out any of the opposition. Even with protective equipment, she just doesn't have the margins needed to stay alive. And those Vampire free spawn she gets? They die just as easy unless massed in great numbers and buffed.

Sure, players can add paths. Nevermind that other pretenders that cost less can be effective without paying for additional paths, at 50 point apiece. So, what path makes her effective? You already know about Blood magic impotence from the Freak Lord. Is death handy? Buying up to Death-5 grants Fear-0, thats something. Yet, she still won't live long enough to rout the opposition. Earth magic will booster her protection, but not nearly enough. Water magic is good for defense and later lets her cast the very powerful Personal Quickness and the still useful Breath of Winter. Still won't survive against chaff.

So, awake is out. What about asleep or imprisoned? The flaw remains the same: it ties up a lot of points into something that won't be productive until later. This can be acceptable if the return on the wait is worth it. I don't think its possible to get 175+ points in value back. The VQ would need to leverage her immortality and be able to either wipe out armies with a degree of support, or consistently damage them without equipment and be back next turn to continue the attrition. I engaged in some thought exercise on this matter, considering various options from Soul Drain to spamming Death to Dust. The problem with either option is either of the games two lich pretenders would do them just as well while costing less. And that freespawn just doesn't come fast enough to tip the tide in her favor.

As with the others, I end by asking if there is any use for the Vampire Queen. Sure, first find a mod that cuts its cost down to be competive with liches. Then, play Late Age Ulm, a rare nation that can use death magic and blood magic from the get-go. Finally... profit?

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

Good points. Nitpick: "To reduce risk, the Manticore could be scripted with (Attack Monster)x5, retreat, and have some cheap defensive gear like an Amulet of Luck." When you script a one-round Attack, you don't get to pick a target, so you can't script [(Attack Monster)x5, Retreat].

-Max

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

Sleeping Manticore should use Alt. 3 spells instead of/with items. Say A2 Mant. can cast mistform and go to party against indie chaff.

Awake Manticore is owned big time by the Wyrm. Well, perhaps it can be more useful on maps where flight is extremely important that don't have lots of water provinces, but even then I'd probably go with the Wyrm. Another annoying aspect of the Mant. is that even if it stays alive it tends to accumulate afflictions like crazy.
I can see it used with dom 10 and no paths with a priestly nation (so losing it every once in a while doesn't hurt that much)

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

The freaklord may perhaps be useful in games that allow only human pretenders for nations that need an awake SC.

VQ is flat out broken since IW has overreacted to it's dom-2 usefulness ( and I say that with all due respect to the true gods of dominions so don't stone me :) )

I have started at least two thread in the past begging for her to get some loving (b/c she is an interesting pretender) but w/o any success :(

Didn't try it in CBM. Is she any better there?

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

I think I made a pretty good case for a vamp queen in my MA Aby guide. I was rather proud of that, and it wasn't a matter of shoehorning her in just to say I did. What she brings to the party above and beyond a lich:

Blood access. Specifically she blood and death, with obvious access to vamp lords which give you a strong entry into both blood and death(!). Sure you can add blood to a lich, but a lich with blood 3 (for vamp lords) starts looking a lot less like the cost winner.

Flying. This is particularly nice on a nation with no easy way to forge winged boots, and doubly nice on an immortal who you want to be able to use without fear of losing your equipment.

Stealthy. This is doubly important for an immortal because it allows you to 1) push your dominion someplace before you attack it. 2) Hop over hostile dominion stuff to where your priests are pushing your dominion on the far side. Combined with flying it gives you huge strategic flexibility.

Life draining attack. This is specific to the build I was going with for MA Aby, but if you add fire to the vamp queen you pick up phoenix pyre. Soul vortex is a must of course, but the down side is you have to sit and take at least one round of melee attacks before it triggers. Not so with the life draining attack. You kill her, she explodes. She immediately flies in to attack again, regaining a large chunk of fatigue *on her attack*. Even if she keeps getting popped immediately by whatever she's fighting she can often just explode her way to victory.

So, yes, there is a niche use for the vamp queen.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

How is stealth on a pretender going to help push your dominion in enemy territory? Via its 1 domspread?

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

Pretenders have more like 3 domspread, and specifically for MA aby they have flying, stealthy H2 preachers that can go get their preach on as well. Add in blood sac capability to push your dom in general and a few specifically targeted candles could quite easily flip a province your way. If that's really worth your pretender's time is another question, but it is certainly possible.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

MA Abysia have no stealthy preachers. Demonbreds are H2 and flying, but not stealthy.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

Ah, thanks, my mistake.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

Yeah, obviously its an uncommon situation where it makes sense to deploy your pretender just to push dominion, but it's not that hard to think up a couple times that's a nice trick to have up your sleeve. Perhaps as your NAP is in the middle of expiring and you're pretty sure there's gonna be a big fight right there on the border where there is a massed enemy army and weak enemy dominion. Or where you're expecting to fight enemy immortals.

Also, another advantage to having stealth is it lets you avoid most ritual spells. Being immortal, this isn't a huge deal most of the time, but it allows you to play a little aggressively out of your dominion if the gain is big enough. Say you just really need a flying heavy hitter to jump behind this huge enemy army to cut off their retreat route but it's out of dominion. Risky move, but sometimes moves like that can win you the war/game and you don't have to worry about a dozen seeking arrows dropping on you the turn after as you sneak away.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

Pretenders get 1 automatic, + 2 temple checks. I actually find its a pretty huge deal as a pretenders strength, hp are related to dominion. Against squishy (1-2) dominion a pretender will almost always flip dominion.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

I've started at least two threads suggesting AI improvements, many which would be quite simple to fix... unfortunately also zero success.
:banghead

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

@MW, Thanks for the catch, I'll have to fix that.

@Wraith Lord/Manticore, you sort of hit the problem with the Manticore, the Wyrm is almost always better. And even on rough terrain maps, the Dragons can provide flight and real SC status that make them worth the extra points.

/Freak Lord, he isn't an awake SC, at all. 10 HP, 0 protection means a single arrow can kill him. That, and trample isn't that great on a size-4 chassis. Which means he needs spells and equipment to survive, and even then with only 10 HP would do so on a very slim margin. And loosing a rainbow (and 1 in every path) is very painful.

@Baalz, OK, you made your a case and its enshrined for prosperity. I actually had your "exception" in mind when I wrote her up, but I double checked and it seemed like you were writing her with CBM in mind, which drops the costs to 100 point, which makes her competive with liches, which was one my contentions at the end. Otherwise, I think its still a very close call between her and a Master Lich. For example, the ML has has Base Dominion 3, which can really help your blood sacrifice dominion spread. He also gets Fire much cheaper. And your Exploding Phoenix Pyre+Soul Vortex+Immortality trickes looks great, but requires some high level spells. So it goes back to my contention of points going "unused" for to long.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

Ah, the outrageously overpriced VQ of Dom3.

In Dom2, she used to be a popular choice for a super combatant chassis (albeit a somewhat fragile one) and many people used her to moderate success in MP - not to the degree that they dominated the game, but it was an overall safe choice, everybody loves immortality on a pretender, and besides, we had all heard about the great success others had with her. A few used her very well, and one person, who was always willing to point out her weaknesses in public, did very well indeed with his nations in MP in general and very frequently used the Vampire Queen.

She got clobbered with the biggest nerf bat this side of seal-clubbing and was relegated pretty much to the dustbin of history.

Now, it needs to be said that the one person who was mentioned the last in the above was a most unique personage - namely one who was ultimately revealed as a cheater who had managed to add considerable resources to his nations in MP play, presumably via modifying the turn file (or possibly the host in his hosted games: he once boasted of having strong abilities at reverse engineering c compiled files). The revelation came, if I recall correctly, for 'tis 5 years ago and my memory is imperfect, with an undead Ermor that had to have gained many, many, hundres of bonud death gems to summon the leaders it sported as revealed by dissecting the turn files.

And thus the great cheater was cast out of civilized society when he failed to come up with a plausible explanation and his name was held accursed by the majority of posters and, unless he has rejoined the forum under another name, he lurks in the shadows still.

And it came to pass that various attempts at cheat prevention were enabled and the angels played a jazzy tune while smiling on the world, for the Vampire Queen never recovered from her undeserved clobbering plus changes from Dom2 to Dom3 affecting her indirectly (EDIT: such as gold/magic rebalancing, life drain nerf, etc). And so on and so forth goes the tale of yesteryear.


With the rebalancing in CBM to bring her closer to her old self, she probably has a niche role nowadays, but since I am playing my very first game using CBM right now, I obviously don't have the experience to make a general evaluation; still, I'd be surprised if it was more than a niche role.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

Yeah, the guy above me pretty much summed up why the Vampire Queen was nerfed. The last time this was brought up though there was an uprising of vet players that said she deserved to be nerfed so intensely. I agree with Peter though because part of the nerfing was her being removed from Ermor, which is the nation the cheating guy always used.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

I feel like I must have accidentally stumbled into Hogwarts. Are we worried he may come back if we use his real name?

Stop withholding gossip from us newbs!

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

here is the thread. No comments are necessary, lets keep this one on topic.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

I just want to make it known I felt really bad for Stormbinder once the truth came out. He constantly caught smack on the forums for accusing Tom Riddle of cheating and even in that thread people were still lowrating the poor guy.

But ultimately, it's a shame that the Vampire Queen was a mostly innocent bystander that was punished for his evil. One of the first things I did was change her back to her earlier glory with a little bit higher price tag than before.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

You mean you felt bad for all the flack he got before it came out, right? I thought afterward he got a lot more appreciation.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

yup. I mean before and during the first part of that thread. He wasn't the only one; a few other guys got caught a lot of slack for saying it as well.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

Hey ya listened on my treelords/vinemen yah!

On a related note QM most of the spells like mother oak, earthblood deep well - thematically make sense, but they unbalance the game.

The game would balance better if there were no same gem globals.
ie., let fire do earth blood deep well.

Yes, its less thematic, but it ends the traditional problem of being very difficult to overcast gem generating globals.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

If I recall, immortality death still breaks the ritual spells the chassis casts regardless of revival in domain. Correct me if I'm wrong but I used the VQ pretty often.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

You mean globals? If an immortal dies in friendly dominion and is resurrected in the capitol, then any globals the immortal has cast stay up. Up until the last patch, if an immortal cast a global and died in friendly dominion, but was unable to be resurrected in the capitol, the global would stay up until dispelled.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

Sorry for OT but I have read this thread and am amazed that all that blatant cheating went on when I was actively playing dominions w/o me knowing nothing about it. Oh I later heard rumors and half hints but never really knew what went on there.

Last OT remark. Cheating didn't die in dom-2. I personally raised the flag and with the help of good ppl and IW flushed another one in dom-3 days. After that IW improved their anti cheating methods(in what way I honestly don't know). Now why oh why would someone choose to cheat in a game???- It's sooooo annoying. Way to go StormBinder, you're my hero :)

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

Personally, I like using Freak Lord in SP (with CBM). Probably just me though.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

Am I imagining things, or maybe my memory is hazy, but doesn't the freaklord get a bonus to crossbreeding? I thought he had a unique skill that improved the effects of crossbreeding somehow. Was that a DOM1 thing?

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

Might be on the wiki. lch would be the person to ask anyway.

I suspect he does not.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

Huh. maybe?

I used freak lord to do a series of crossbreeding.
I always got 1 good result, 3 medium results and tons of crap.

Never compared that to other casters..

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

I'm no master at this, but I have found the Freak Lord to be useful. I started taking him with LA Jomon (mainly in vanilla because they need more help there). He is a rainbow pretender, but can be used as a light SC for early expansion once you get alteration 3.

This assumes you give him some air, astral, and earth. He can mistform, invulnerability, etherealness, attack rear. He tramples human sized opponents and spreads fear. Of course he needs a decoy element on the other flank to distract the first wave of melee troops, but even if he ends up attacking them, I have yet to see him come to grief against reasonable indies. He can reliably and safely add to expansion in this way, and then start site-searching when expansion is done. The one blood can be useful, or can be ignored. I like him for the trample, the fear, the cost, and the low cost of adding paths.

Sure a real SC is superior to him, but remember he has the added advantage of being a rainbow.

I guess I find him to be the only hybrid rainbow/SC expander available. He can do both if used properly, and the extra misc. slot can be an advantage as Omnikron pointed out.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

I am very surprised he doesn't die a horrible fatigue death about a round after he starts doing that.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

I tried a Freak Lord, and used similar buffs:
- Summon Earthpower
- Invuln
- Mistform
- Personal Quickness
I probably threw in a Regen too.

He was wearing rainbow armor, and had a reinvig ammy. Even quickened he didn't work up too much fatigue.

But he was total crap at killing stuff, and he has low HP even if he trapezes from high dom. He got killed by some big Shin warriors. I suppose he could have killed indies, but by the time you're at Alt-4 Const-4, there aren't a lot of indies to kill.

Trample sucks if you don't have a whole bunch of tramplers.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

Well, if I remember, I went Alt-3, Conj-3 for summon earthpower. This is also a legitimate research strategy to benefit your national mages: aim, protection, eagle eyes, earth might, summon power spells, etc.

Yes this delays his expansion timing, but he's researching in the interim. As I said, you pick reasonable indies to use him against. He's like a Helkarl used for expansion except no glamour but he tramples+fear.

I consider the Freak Lord a hybrid rainbow/SC. He's not the greatest SC, but he adds just enough oomph to Jomon's expansion that I think he's worth considering. If you're careful that is.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

What turn do you get Alt-3/Conj-3 on? How many provinces does he take in the first year? And could you get more with him asleep and better scales for more troops?

An SC for expansion is most useful very early. Preferably from turn 1 or 2. Maybe, under some circumstances, long enough to research a single level in one path, or forge a couple of trinkets.
Beyond that, in MP, indies will be gone before he can take enough to earn his keep.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

Indies may be gone, but after early expansion, he is still a rainbow and is useful in the late game with his paths/slots.

He doesn't have to earn his keep all upfront.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

I agree. Yes, he's not an SC right out of the box. Yes, a better SC could expand earlier, and yes, after the research needed, the expansion phase is well underway/winding down, but...

He moves 3 provinces a turn so as soon as the research is there he can quickly switch to offense. Jomon and other nations that need a 40+ soldier army to reliably expand spend tons of money on expansion teams, but the Freak Lord will give you one cheap expansion team for the mid-late expansion phase. He's cheap to design too, so good scales.

I have also taken him asleep in SP for more paths/better scales, but to get his full benefit you need him awake. He speeds research, then speeds expansion, then speeds sight searching, then becomes an astral master with three misc slots.

For a long time I was obsessed with unlocking Jomon's seemingly great potential in Dom vanilla. Jomon has trouble expanding, and trouble funding large expansion parties (because I take disorder and production scales). The freak lord is the solution in that situation for Jomon in my opinion. He even gets Jomon into death magic for Oni Generals and Dai Oni's, and blood for potential bloodstones for your dragon mages (assuming you get into the water).

In CBM Jomon is much easier to play, and should probably take the Celestial General (with auto-spawn shield bearing troops to complement the samurai archers, and mounted archers to complement samurai cavalry).


BTW, after struggling with vanilla Jomon for so long, CBM Jomon feels like I'm cheating!

Keep in mind, I'm new to MP games, so I certainly respect/take seriously OmniKron Warrior's assessment of the Freak Lord's flaws. I disagree with him, but that may be because I have a SP perspective and he a MP one.

I am waiting for an LA game I can get into as Jomon to implement some of these ideas. If it's a vanilla game, and I'm playing Jomon, you can *almost* bet your life that I'm taking the Freak Lord.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

A celestial general is certainly helpful for jomon in the expansion phase... I used him in a game and was more or less tied for 2nd fastest expansion. Used his freespawn as arrow catchers/lancebreakers and jomonese cavalry to do the actual killing.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

Samurai archers? Ew. Do not buy. Useless, and more dangerous to you than your opponent.

Go-Hatamoto, Aka-Oni, cavalry, and Yamabushi basically cover all your truly worthwhile units. Samurai with naginata are an ok replacement for Yamabushi away from your capital. Everything else is crap.

I like pure scales play with Jomon. Although you can also bless your yamabushi - 7 W9 yamabushi expand just fine. I've certainly never had a real problem expanding with them.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

Well, there are different ways to play them. I agree Go-Hatamotos are good. Never tried a major bless with them, doesn't seem right, and I am surprised 7 yamabushi can do anything even with a bless. What if the enemy has archers?

Samurai archers are OK, and useful for many situations, just be careful with placement of your un-shielded infantry, or better yet use all archer or all infantry armies in the early going.

How are you summoning your Aka-Onis with no death mages and they're conj 3 I think in vanilla? I suppose you could have your pretender start summoning them, but 3 for 10 fire gems?

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

Pretty sure Aka-Oni is the unit you can buy with red armor.

Samurai archers are not OK. They cost too many resources for a weapon that is crap against 85% of the units other players will be fielding, because armor is heavier in LA. Longbows don't cut it anymore. And as with all archers, massing is key, and at 20+ resources each, you just can't mass them acceptably. I'd take shortbows at 3-4 resources apiece over those, because they'll be much more effective with flaming arrows since they're far more massable.

Regarding yamabushi vs. archers
I might have archer pulled in the games i tested them with using a couple ashigaru.

It may also be the case that they were simply fast enough to not notice/care about archers. Indie archers are shortbows after all.

I'm not saying i would normally take a major bless for Jomon, I like pure scales. But it can work for a smaller game.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

I have to agree with the squirrel on this. Samurai archers are not really a good use of resources. The only unit that takes more in your entire lineup is samurai cavalry... which has much more kick per unit than the archers do. IMO, with Jomon efficiency per resources is extremely important, and as squirrel says that does not leave you with many options. You either go with the cavalry (quite decent under CBM but very offensively-minded... probably your best non-sacred early unit), go-hatamoto (very efficient, map move 1 doesn't hurt expansion too much when you're starting out, and their high armor is enough to shrug off anything short of crossbows), or aka-oni (more skilled and faster than go-hatamoto, but worse armor... I'd wait to use these guys until after initial expansion honestly). It could be interesting to go with a bless with jomon because they have so many sacred summons though, so while I agree again with squirrel about focusing on scales, that doesn't mean it couldn't be fun to take a nice bless, luck 3 for the extra gems, and pretend you're a bless nation.

Edit: yes, aka-oni are the red armored guys. They are your goto unit once you have good buffing abilities due to their higher skill and general utility.

And remember that jomon has death access through nushi! It's still not necessarily a bad idea to have some death on your pretender though, just to get searching started on it earlier.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

I always feel like aka-oni should be restricted in some way. They're a famous and specific group of troops under the command of a heroic leader, but essentially they make up 75% of Jomonese armies. Bit weird. Wouldn't mind seeing them cap only or something.

Re: Better Know a (Bad) Pretender: the Terrible Three
 

I agree. But I rationalize that Jomon re-organized the entire army based on the that one unit.