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Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
[/b]:bug: First I REALLY hate to beat a dead horse and I'm sorry if someone gets upset for continuing an "old" thread (OT),
(Dated 10-03-08 and active now.) with a new one. This transport issue has been bothering me for sometime (:rolleyes:We never would have guessed!) especially after having been around the ones "we might or not be carrying" aboard the various classes of subs I've served on. What is the MOST basic thing needed to launch ANY missile? Yes - power! Who ever allowed the Dutch (see OT) to have transport whether he realized it or not was on the right track. By rights NONE of the Patriot systems in the game should work without it because the tractor supplies all the power required for the trailor to include launching the missiles. Case in point, U.S. Patriot missiles (Through PAC/3 in use now.) are carried onboard the M860A1 semi-trailor specifically designed for the Patriot. It is transported in the field by the M983 Tractor (Shown I believe as the U.S. Tank Transport Tractor in the game.). And like that card this missile DOESN'T leave home without it because the altenator of the M983 supplies the 100amp power needed for ALL launcher fuctions via the M860A1 semi-trailer. Therefore transport and launching are all inclusive. And it takes no longer to transport then field arty as the game operates now (Or how it treats the DUTCH Patriot units.) Also a modified M983 Tractor flat bed provides field supply and reloading capbilities. I would refer you to the pictures (Many showing the two together.) provided in the "OT" or online and JANE's Worlds Military Transport book which provided the power info among others. Also I found an excellent site @ FAS.ORG/SPP/STARWARS/DOCOPS/FM44-85/Appe.HTM that goes into detail on transport loading requirments for the M983 and M860A1. And look out for MEADS which will replace the Patriot. This is a joint U.S., German and Italian project. Essentionally MEADS is a Patriot PAC/3 on steriods on a mobile 5-ton truck platform capable of launching 12 missiles with, combat field reloading just like the Patriot. Will be in launch field testing in 2011 and expected to be fully operational and in the field by 2014. Thanks for your time and patience!!! Pat |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
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Attachment 8851 So here I am, just finished battle #2 as the USMC vs Russia. Completed the repair phase, changed a couple units, punched out and the AI wants me to play against Iran (One of my standard 17-21 gen battle campaigns over a years time.) for B3. Shop for support units and thought let me check out what the Marines are using for SAM Batteries (Patriots yes I know.) They come in two choices static (WRONG) and with prime movers (RIGHT) as I discussed above and in my original Patriot Transport post. As far as the U.S. is concerned normally the USA gets all the new toys before the USMC gets them. This just looks like an oversight issue and I would think it might be an easy fix(?) so that like the Dutch and the USMC, that all countries that possess the Patriot have the same capability as again referred to above. Just a thought with all due respect. Wished I could've caught this sooner, as mentioned in the MRAP post I've just never played this game using the USMC until this week after all these years.
With Regards and a Good Night, Pat:yawn: P.S. Andy I do remember the post in the MRAP one where you indiciated this would be reviewed for the Winter. Can see if others already have the transport option available in the game beside the Dutch and USMC? |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
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Good Morning! Some pictures as provided by GlobalSecurity.org.
Attachment 8870 M983 with M860A1 Semi, note this system can be left unmanned and still be launched via data link (DLC) from a launch station. Attachment 8869 This is the M985E1 its purpose is to provide resupply to Patriot Batteries in the field. It has it's own integral crane for transfer of the Patriots with a carry capacity of four missiles. It is designated as a Guided Missile hauler. Hope this is useful. V/R Pat |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
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A SAM element simply is a representative element for the launcher. It is carried by a heavy truck (as patriots will be when we sort the carry cost). The element can be assumed to contain any number of auxiliary vehicles, not represented in the game. All the game needs is something that launches a SAM. We don't care a whit if Sam-X has 2 APU vehicles, a tea trolley and 2 different fire control radars. Those are unnecessary detail that the game abstracts. Nor does SP have any concept of battery fire control, for SAM or arty. The launcher is "it" for game purposes, as is the individual "self-plotting" field gun for on-map indirect arty. Cheers Andy |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
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Attachment 8880
Andy, Fully understand the need for "KISS" from the software and more importantly the play of the game. Just wanted to "illustrate" the point I was trying to make earlier in regard to the operational importance of the transport unit to the launcher and it's operation. It's all good! Regards, Pat:happy: |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
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Just thought it made sense to post further PATRIOT Pac-3/MEADS info here as some info has come to light in the testing area. This IS NOT to rehash old issues which I believe have been resolved in the 5.0 patch.
First a more recent overview of both programs: http://www.army-technology.com/projects/meads/ And an update reported this month on the testing program: http://www.defense-update.com/produc...2010.html#more Pics: Attachment 9904 Attachment 9905 Regards, Pat |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
MEADS in trouble? A little light reading that touchs on issues that have been discussed in threads before concerning new or joint weapons development issues.
http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/561/ this is from a fairly new source for me I've added to my arsenal. Enjoy and have a great weekend!! Regards, Pat |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
I was wondering for the next patch if we could have pictures and icons of the HEMTT trucks for the US heavy truck. The current icons seem to be of a generic deuce and a half. Thanks
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Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
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Andy |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
Ohh,OK. Well thanks for the reply though.
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Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
MEADS reaches 75% Critical Design Testing (CDT) stage and is on track for final flight testing in White Sands NM. in mid 2012. It will use at this time use a common truck based launcher developed by Germany.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/15202/ Regards, Pat |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
Amid Russian concerns, the U.S. deploys the first Patriot battery to Poland.
http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/579/ Regards, Pat |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
MEADS reaches a critical milestone. But before I go further MEADS will be on a truck mounted platform as developed by Germany who's primarily handling the launcher system, will track this and present it when finalized.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/16290/ Have a great weekend! Regards, Pat |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
NATO missile defence linked up.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/17091/ Had to clear my head as these things where rolling around as I took a break from things here. Regards, Pat |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
Interview with Mr. Gregory Kee the GM in charge of the NATO MEADS program. I found it interesting that he says of the system that it's at least eight times more efficient and capable then the PATRIOT system. Apparently it's still on track for missile testing in 2012. One of it's big advantages is that it will be more mobile with a larger missile load (12). I believe the system will see the light of day because of Russia's increase in anti-air/anti-missile systems (S-400 and S-500) and units.
I'll have to check but I believe there will be a game issue here also, but that's for later. http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/647/ Regards, Pat |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
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USA completes first SLAMRAMM FMTV launcher firing test. The FMTV will replace the HUMEVEE as the Army's launch platform for SLAMRAMM. I believe the FMTV is manufactured by OSHKOSH
(M-ATV etc.). Successful completion could lead the FMTV to be the platform for the AIM-9X and other systems (MEADS?). http://www.defpro.com/news/details/18169/ On the opposite end of the spectrum, I present the following; the B-1 we know the missile is fairly new. http://www.defpro.com/news/details/18160/ and deserves a pic: Attachment 10448 Regards, Pat |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
MEADS successful in interoperability testing with NATO defence shield program testing. This was a landmark test as this was the first time it has been tested outside of the U.S., Italian and German sphere. This mobile system is still on track for final flight testing in 2012 @ White Sands NM test range.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/18245/ The Oshkosh FMTV (See above post.) might be considered as a possible mobile launcher for MEADS as well but, it's only a rumor. As a quick side note Russia kills the S-300 deal with Iran last week IAW latest UN sanctions. Regards, Pat |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
MEADS prepares for it's next critical phase when the C&C vehicle will be unveiled and tested in Italy, this will be important and I'm sure will be done in a timely manner before the U.S. and it's partners (Germany & Italy) decide on whether to proceed with the program or not. Program for now appears on track for complete systems integrated testing to start in mid 2012 @ White Sands, NM.
The system is still on my delete list though, only Italy has it. Also it's shown as a static and not mobile system in the game. The Osh-Kosh FMTV is still the likely launcher platform and ammo supply vehicle due to it's armored cab. If again the system survives the budget cutting ax, we won't see it fielded until 2015 - 2016 time frame. Lockheed Martin is making a strong case with the PATRIOT PAC-3 but backing out of the MEADS program could cost in the 100's of millions of dollars, it's a toss up right now. UK MOD is the latest not to back out on a program, they will continue with building the two QUEEN ELISABETH Class carriers that are, not planned to go operational, only because it would cost more to stop the program then continue on with it. http://www.defpro.com/news/details/20770/ Regards, Pat |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
UAE and TAIWAN get the PATRIOT PAC-3. PAC-3 is the most advanced version of the PATRIOT Missile System. Lockheed Martin and it's partners in the program are lobbying hard to defeat the MEADS System Program developed by the U.S., GERMANY & ITALY which is also a SPAA platform.
http://defense-update.com/wp/20101224_pac3.html Regards, Pat |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
Now that SLAMRAAM is dead (See APC post #85) and MEADS for now is hanging in there, here's an article from the end of Oct. 2010 that provided the "heads up" on the topic at hand.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/18942/ The political rangling has started but when the Senate Minority Leader (Republican Mitch McConnell.) comes out to support the SECDEF publically on his recommendations it's pretty much a done deal. Regards, Pat |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
Note to Self: Continue following Fastboat Toughs' threads, excellent info!
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Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
Have been talking about MEADS for a long time now. Funding here is has now become conditional for further funding of the program. It's a quick update at the top. Some might remember my "three legged stool" analogy.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...0639/#more-639 The day before though it cleared another major milestone, program is on track. http://www.defpro.com/news/details/21630/ This completes two weeks worth of news for this and others as just posted today. Regards, Pat |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
This is the raw data only as submitted from the last patch post I submitted. It's been my policy to repost these into their "home" threads for comment or not.
TRANSPORT FOR U.S. ...UPDATE! D1. DELETE: ITALY/MEADS/UNIT 182/ The reason for deletion is that the MEADS is about 4 - 5 years out from being fielded providing there are no delays in testing and as follows. This program is under so much pressure that if any one of the three legs holding this up falters (U.S. 58%, Germany 25% & Italy 17% of funding.) this program is probably done. As I noted in the "JET..." thread it was not mentioned in the JAN 06, 2011 speech by SECDEF Gates as one of the programs to be cut, also no news out of the other two partners of any move thus far to do likewise with their defense budgets even though they are making major cuts as well in defense spending. Lockheed Martin is also pushing hard against it (MEADS) as well with the major success seen in the PATRIOT (Upgrade.) PAC 3 missile. But this could survive all because of the cancellation guarantees that could run into the 100's of millions of dollars at the point of termination in development. It should be noted however that the program has been very successful to date. This will allow for a mobile platform to be properly modeled as this is NOT a static system! Also each mobile launcher will have a dedicated ammo unit paired with it, and will actually be bought as a unit in this manner such as the ARCHER SPA System and the USA with PALIDAN. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...744/#more-5744 FMTV based on this to be the new launcher, supply and component platform. http://www.olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_photos_fmtv.php http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...KEYWORDS=meads http://www.reuters.com/article/idCNN2726097420101027 http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...s-0639/#conops Posts: Page 1; #6 & #7, Page 2; #11, #12, #15, #17 & #18. D2. DELETE: USA & USMC/HUMRAAM/UNITS 816 & 513 Respectively/ Program cancelled on 06 Jan. 2011 by SECDEF Gates. http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/...5f3882e1791d50 SECDEF Gates kills SLAMRAAM & EFV etc. https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportun...1f966&_cview=0 Dated: 02 Sep. 2010 @ 1041. This is to show how long ago and fast a program dies. This document is the final solicitation notice to incorporate the FMTV as the launcher platform and complete the testing to final system operational demonstration of SLAMRAAM as it goes into low rate production. https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportun...1415a&_cview=0 Dead. Dated: 22 Sep. 2010 @ 0909. Posts: Page 2; #16 & #20. S-400 TRIUMF Page 4 TO&Es C1. CHANGE: RUSSIA/S-400 TRIUMF/UNIT 295/Fielded date to JAN 2010vice JAN 2007/ This program suffered from delays as well and I suspect was entered based on developmental data. This is mounted on a mobile platform as well as it should be. Will transfer this info to the SPA/SPAA thread when done here. http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ssia/s-400.htm As of 2007 it was not deployed due to technical issues. Some reported it had but as this touches on it there was confusion in the west between the S-400 and an upgraded version of the S-300 early on as well. http://www.defpro.com/news/details/12012/ S-400 completes trials in Nov. 2009 as reported in Dec. 2009. http://www.defpro.com/news/details/14918/ This article would almost suggest a later date then I have given above based on production and combat launch testing to not have been completed/or started until this past fall. I still like the date above as Post #1 supports this as well as the AUSA (Which in the updated section supports Post #1.) source I used recently in the Jet... thread. Post: Page 1; #1. End Part 1 Regards, Pat |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
News of the week.
S-400 TRUMF slowly still coming on line as Moscow gets it's second battery. http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20110216/162635663.html This also came off the "did".com site. Well I've been watching this program for a long time now and warned in the patch post that if one leg leg of the 3 legged stool faltered the program will likely be killed. Well you better get off that stool right now, two are faltering real fast!! These countries stand to lose in the 100's of millions of dollars or more by canceling MEADS now. And parallels to the F-35, EFV and other programs are not hard too make here. All are troubled programs, with cost over runs, R&D issues and questions arising over are these the right systems for the times? Though MEADS has had some major successes over the last couple of years, like the EFV the cost has finally maybe caught up to MEADS as well. You have to really step back if you live in the U.S. given what's happening here politically and ask is the F-35program really that safe if if the cost over runs continue? I do know my Federal taxes are going up on 1 Mar. and on 4 Mar. the government will shut down without a compromise on the budget we've here yet to pass for FY 2011. If this keeps up the F-35 could easily find itself going the way of SLARAAM (w/European partners.) , EFV, and now MEADS (w/European partners.) if it doesn't "fly right" and get it's costs under control. The MEADS radar system is so advanced it might cross over to the PATRIOT PAC III making a much improved PATRIOT system better. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...639/#contracts A perspective. http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/...0a3d0df2434e95 Regards, Pat |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
The news of the last week.
This next is going to cause me to review within the game who has the PATROIT systems PAC 1 to PAC 3 and who doesn't and should. UAE again. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...390/#more-4390 Track and investigate for the 2011/2012 campaign. That's it for this week. Regards, Pat |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
The news of the past week.
Russia is staying busy as are many in improving and coming up with new AAGM Systems to counter the growing threat from the air with the advances being made in that area especially with the push towards 5th Gen fighters to try too match the F-22. Some we've discussed such as Russia/India PAK FA, Chinese J-20, U.S. F-35 with Japan and S. Korea starting working on their own fighters. Russia lead the news this week with their very capable S-300 and S-400 systems. It should be noted work has already been started on the S-500 which we should be hearing more about in the next year or so. 1. The S-300 systems I reported on a while back indeed look like they are going to Venezuela. If the deal holds up and it looks like it will, this will have a major impact on air defence in the region. Note the last line. Off "DID" site. http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20110222/162713838.html All you ever wanted to know about S-300 & S-400. AUSA is a very well respected air power think tank a "JANES" if you will in this area. http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Grumble-Gargoyle.html 2. Russia is going on a massive arms build up of their own not seen since the end of the "Cold War" here's a small piece of that pie, their improved S-300V4 this year. http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20110228/162790155.html http://www.deagel.com/Air-Defense-Sy...000372006.aspx It is after all very "Hush Hush". 3. The third S-400 regiment is to stand up in the far east the second as already reported in the 'patch post" will be stood up in the Moscow area by the end of the month. Note para 3 for unit make up. http://defense-update.com/wp/20110221_s400.html 4. I didn't quite put all this together on how the MEADS Launcher (And PATRIOT PAC-3.) were going from 4 AAGM's (Standard PATRIOT AAGM.) to 12 AAGM'S for MEADS/PATRIOT PAC-3 from basically the same launcher, but again para 3 of this article clears it up better then some I've read. And PAC-3 has been around and is operational as stated earlier I'll need to sort this out for next years "patch post". http://defense-update.com/wp/20110303_pac-3_ms.html TRACK and follow up on for the 2011/2012 campaign. A bit tired so I'll call it a night, take care all! Regards, Pat |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
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fighter planes, SSBNs, SAMs etc you need something new eventually to mantain a viable force. |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
News of the last two weeks:
Well Don probably did the right thing to take the time to make MEADS a mobile launcher system (Thanks! , I'll have to get you to do the same for PATRIOT someday!?!) and keep it in the game for Italy though if it does survive (Oh yes apparently it still has a pulse!), the unit is ready to be transferred to the U.S. and Germany. Even after the U.S. and Germany have announced the cutting off of funding, they will keep it funded through the developmental stage, but this process is allowing the opportunity for continued success with now the possibility of a couple of new partners to get involved within the next two years that could in combination save this program. http://www.defpro.com/news/details/23038/ http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...639/#contracts Go MEADS! Regards, Pat |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
Finland gets the first of it's SISU 8x8 NASAMS FIN launcher vehicles.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/23345/ NASAMS FIN is the export version of the SL-AMRAAM former U.S. system that was cancelled at the end of last year as announced by SECDEF Gates on 6 Jan. 2011. The following is for background only, note the 2009 date. For more on SL-AMRAAM see earlier posts this thread especially as transferred from the Patch Post thread. http://www.raytheon.com/newsroom/fea...aam/index.html Follow up on this! :capt: Regards, Pat |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
News from LW...
Before anyone gets too excited, this should not come as a surprise given the international scope of the project under it's various different names, see last weeks post here, but SLAMRAAM has successfully moved on in it's funding through the developmental phase, again as with MEADS it's cheaper to fund it through that stage then be liable in 100's of millions of dollars in program termination fees as would be the case for MEADS and as has been brought up many times in this thread. http://www.defpro.com/news/details/23514/ Note the OSH-KOSH armored FMTV is the launcher platform for the U.S. as pictured in the ref. Regards, Pat |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
News of the LW+
1. I think some will find this interesting, PATROIT vs MEADS. http://www.defpro.com/news/details/24263/ 2. This next I believe will be an ADD for Finland on the next Patch Post. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...Systems-05398/ FOLLOW UP ON THIS!! :capt: Regards, Pat |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
This will be my final entry to this thread, all future posts will be put in the SPA/SPAA thread. It is still my mission to get the PATRIOTS mobile as they are in the real world. The door was left open when MEADS went mobile in the last patch for Italy, though again I'll be putting it up for deletion as funding will be stopped once the developmental stage has been completed in 2013 to avoid the massive program termination fees as discussed for quite sometime here. This decision on my part is due to new info since the last imputs were accepted for the patch. This will be posted to SPA/SPAA thread later. Note user countries.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...in-shape-02968/ I just need to consolidate all this info in a logical manner. Thank You! Regards, Pat |
Re: Transport for U.S. Patriot Units-Update!
See the following...Page 3/Posts #23 - #26 as posted in the SPA/SPAA Thread.
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Grumble-Gargoyle.html OK, the first S-400 Battery did achieve IOC during the 2007-2008 time period. However the first FOC+ battery wasn't assigned to the Moscow District until JAN 2010. There's your answer. "Reindeer games" are over and we get "to keep our jobs". :) Time for some sleep!! Regards, Pat :capt: |
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