Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game. Game on!
 

This is a small Warhammer inspired game to celebrate the addition of Bretonnia to the Dom 3 WH mod community.

NEWS:

Game is up on the llamaserver.


Players:

Burnsaber - Ogre Kingdoms by Sombre
Llamabeast - Bretonnia by Burnsaber
Trumanator - Skaven by Sombre
Sombre - Tomb Kings by Llamabeast
Squirreloid - Chaos Undivided by Panpiper
DrPraetorious - Itza by Sombre

Rules

Players: 6
Settings: HoF 15, renaming on, otherwise normal
Mods: Warhammer_Six_Nations
Diplomacy:
1) Extremely Machieviellian and non-binding, spiced with the bitter taste of betrayal and agony
2) Trading of magical items banned (gems and money are fair game thought), to encourage national differences
3) What happens in the name of the "Sign of the Hammer" does not spread to any other games in no shape or form.

Map: The NI map "Fields of Battle" attachted to this post.

Other rules:
1) Roleplaying by characteristic posts (both in-game and in this thread) is heavily encouraged and appreciated.
2) Fighting to the last breath is expected in this game. If you are too time strained or unmotivated to play, please at least try to find a sub.

Hosting:
26h until people feel that it is not enough, at which point we will move 48h. Hopefully a 72h timer will never be needed.

Delays granted on request.

Victory Condition:

1) Ruling 3 capitals for 3 consecutive turns.
2) Concensus from other players

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A warhammer mod game. (2 open spots)
 

I'm in.
You can't touch this.

Itza, or if someone really wants Itza, Chaos.

Edit: Screw it, Chaos. Can't... resist... dark side...

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A warhammer mod game. (1 open spots)
 

Damnit, llama already called brettonia....:(

I'll take skaven in that case methinks :)

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A warhammer mod game. (1 open spots)
 

The Hammer is a slaves tool. Fitting that as we rouse ourselves from our tombs, the world should see its future writ in the night sky.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game. (1 open spot left)
 

I'll take Sylvania or Sangunia (if they are worked into the Mod) or lizardmen if it does not.

On which subject, should I package the combined mod? Do we want any CBMitude in there as well?

Oops: Hammer.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game. (1 open spot left)
 

If you want to compile the mod, please do so. Brettonnia mod might be incompactible with the script (due to the mad mod haxoring with the battle summons), like the rest of my mods seem to be, for some inexplicable reason. But after compiling all other mods, I think that you could copy-paste Bretonnia into it and give it to me. I'll sort out any clashes.

As for CBM, I think that CBM 1.5 is fine. Let's include it now. I won't be 100% sure that CBM 1.6 be released in time for this game.

Also the Chaos mod has an seriously overpowered national pretender, I'll take the opportunity to nerf him while I fix the possible clashes.
I chose Ogres as my nation.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Damn, I'd like to get in on this. Is it all mod nations? I don't care, I just want to be involved in a pure RP game (I hate trying to RP other MP game communications at this point - you start with, "Greetings! We are the slaves of Lord So-and-So the Terrible..." - and wind up reduced to "OK, what booster do you need to cast that Ench-6 spell?" etc.). Especially want to play in a game with "real" diplomacy, meaning nothing that is binding (No, "sorry Hitler, you agreed to that NAP-3 with Stalin, so no Barbarossa until Winter of 42 for you!").

Plus a small, cozy 6 player game seems nice right about now :)

Don't know squat about "Itza", but I'd happily take them for a spin.

Oh, almost forgot, "Hammer Time".

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Sorry, but the game is full. We already have 6 players.

If you want a roleplay-tastic game, I advise to start your own. I think that there is a demand for that kind of game, as long as the RPG aspect isn't too "extreme", so to speak. Perhaps just dictate that all messages should be in character? You should fill up with 6 players in no time.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Crud. If anyone bails, let me know :)

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game. (1 open spot left)
 

Now that we have the glorious CBM 1.6 available, it would be a shame not to use it. If it's still possible, it might best if we use it in the mod compilation.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Whats with all the hammers?

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Just confirming I'm playing.

I wonder if three capitals is too few? I'm about to get three capitals in Crusaders, and I'm not that strong. If we were to increase it, I'd suggest four.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

It is the number after three. But I'm also worried that testing may reveal it to be the number before five.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Aw, I missed it :(. Well, I'll be watching this game, hopefully there will be enough trash talk going on to get some idea what's happening.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

We'll you should notice that we only have 6 players. The idea is that the all of the winners of their first war (aka when we have 3 players left probably sometime after turn 35) have a shot at the win.

With 3 players controlling 2 capitols and three required to win, things will get very intresting ;).

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

You know given that more people have shown interest in this than there are spaces available, perhaps a second warhammer game should be started shortly after this one with identical settings. It could then use the same combined mod, same NI map etc.

It would be an interesting experiment to see how differently the two games played out. Of course the major difference would be the players, but it would also allow for different builds etc for the mod nations and obviously result in more feedback.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Okay, so - CBM 1.6 plus the various nation mods?

I'll set the packaging up some time this afternoon, will post here if I have problems.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Here it is. I deleted the crazy pretender from Chaos Undivided, but have made no other changes.

If we want to make a few further changes beyond CBM 1.6 + the six nations, I suggest changing this file directly?

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Oh, and I decided I really liked the lizard artwork, so I'm Itza.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

I believe Burnsaber had some ideas on how to make the 'crazy' pretender from Chaos undivided reasonable.

That said, I'm not especially interested in using him, although if thematic is important he really is my only decent choice.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

I was going to say, a number of these nations are missing expanded pretender choices, would people mind if I added them?

Nehekara and Bretonnia both have extensive options presumably picked out consciously.

My suggested addition list (not meant to complete):

Skaven has a national pretender (although he isn't the Great Horned Rat, which he should be), but still: Lord of the Summer Plague, Lord of Rebirth, Ageless Olm, Monolith, Carrion Dragon, Dracolich, Destroyer of Worlds.

Itza should be allowed to get: Phoenix, Mother of Serpents, Mother of Monsters, Sphinx, Glyph, Ageless Olm, Risen Oracle.

Chaos Undivided should be allowed to get: Lord of the Summer Plague, Son of Fenrir, Drakaina, Moloch, Lady of Love, Mother of Monsters, Deva, Great Black Bull, Lord of the Wild, Lord of War, Forge Lord, Destroyer of Worlds, Nataraja.

Ogre Kingdoms should be allowed to get: Son of Niefel, Lord of Rebirth, Skratti, Bog Mummy, Monolith, Great Mother, Lord of Fertility, Father of Winters, Virtue.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

I was honestly wondering about the lack of Moloch for Chaos.

I wouldn't mind those additions at all, although the agartha specific pretenders seem slightly weird for Agartha... (So does the lady of love without some reflavoring for Chaos.)

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

There are several issues why the Great Horned Rat isn't in the mod. First and most important, Warhammer gods aren't really the same thing as pretenders. They're actual gods, not just big things with lots of magic. Secondly I don't really like doing big graphics and since verminlords are in his image, I guess he'd be a huge scaled up one of those. Though he is mentioned to take thousands of unspeakable forms, it's not like any of them are really depicted anywhere, because he's a proper God, with the whole omnipotent but not physically present thing going on. Also I don't like doing pretenders more generally.

I don't agree with most of those you list. I mean Virtue for Ogre Kingdoms? What? Risen Oracle for Itza?

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

I tested the complimation mod real quick and found no clashes. Even Bretons battle summons seem to work as intented. Nice job :up:, Dr.P!

As for the additional pretender choices, I'd leave them out for now. If you want to see them, I'd suggest to make a case for it in the mod thread. IMHO, at least chaos and Ogres could use some additional vanilla pretender choices. But adding/testing them isn't the point of this game.

Amonchakad was apparently designing another warhammer mod game and apparently has a nice complimation of changes to the Chaos mod to make it more thematic & balanced. I'll look into his ideas and implemet those me and squirreloid see necessary.

I've generated a nice looking and somwhat balanced map with 84 land and 4 sea provinces. I'll release it as soon as I manage to give it the "NI" treatment.

As for your nice idea Sombre, yeah. I'll create a duolicate game once the mod and map are finalized.

If things go even somewhat as planned, the game will likely be up on the llamaserver by Sunday (sorry, but I'm pretty busy with school before weekend).

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Re: Risen Oracle for Slaan. I was using it as a "placeholder" for a Slaan Lich. It seemed closer than the saurolich.

Re: Virtue for Ogre Kingdoms. Yes, okay, that was a bit of a joke :).

I'm going to manage with a vanilla pretender, I suppose.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

I uploaded the map to the first post.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

*bump*

Are we playing? If so, post whatever modifications you've made to the Chaos Mod, I will mix it in and we can start this week :)?

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

the hornblower shows up as a pretender - I'm trying out that package, hoping to familiarize myself w/ the nations in time for whenever the next WH game is (hopefully soon!). Is he displacing some national? I certainly didn't see any chaos god pretender choice. I do have CBM 1.6 enabled...

also, the sprites in some of these mods are simply amazing. I didn't think such artistry and attention to detail was even possible, given the limitations.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

the magic paths for itza and chaos commanders are messed up. I doubt that the 1 gp chameleon skink scout is supposed to have 1a 4s, or the skink priest 4d 1n 3? (also warchief and oldblood have hvy paths) - and, strangely coincidentally, 3 of the 4 chaos "lords" have no magic at all... for 400 gp that seems a bit steep ;)

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Ok, i've reviewed the amonchaos version

Lord of the Endtimes should be corrected to the version we discussed burnsaber. Also, with those corrections, new paths should also be reduced to 50 instead of 80. The amonchaos version is unplayably expensive (and has encumbrance too, so its 150pts for probably a 50pt chassis). Not that I plan on using one.

I've come to the conclusion that the lords are all priced wrong and far too high, with the possible exception of tzeentch. The champions are probably also poorly priced too. Details:

General: All the lords should have at least H1.

Nurgle Lord isn't even that good. He can't SC, and he has no magic, so he's just a glorified thug. The lord is lucky if he's 200g good, which gives me doubts on the 200g pricetag of the champion. Fix: I don't know man. Dropping the price to 200g would mean needing to seriously re-evaluate teh champion.

Slaanesh was somewhat playable in the original, but not amazing. Amonchaos then goes and nerfs his enslave attack to be easily resisted (at least i think it was changed - before amonchaos i had 80-90% success using it against indies), and now its mostly useless. Drop the price to 250 and restore the enslave attack to not be easily resisted. (even with the dropped pricetag, its not exactly an attack that chaos will be *spamming*)

Tzeentch Lord: Agree with 500g pricetag, given caveat on H1 above.

Khorne: The 3 fatigue per turn absolutely kills the utility of this unit early, and its a glorified thug later. probably 200-250g.

That brings us to champions:
With the exception of Tzeentch I'd drop the champions to 100-150g tops. Probably Slaanesh >= Khorne > Nurgle, but rated at something like 125g, 115g, 90g or something like that. I might also consider giving them H1 at those or slightly higher prices. (Compare to jotun herses/jarls. Yomi may also be a decent nation to compare to). Tzeentch may deserve a mild price decrease, say 175.

Basically, the chaos lords and champions are priced as if they had halfway decent magic. Tzeentch meets that expectation, but the others definitely don't. I suppose the alternate fix is to give them reasonable magic, but that strikes me as harder. (I suppose Nurgle Champions could have D2H1 and the Lord have D4H2, with W2H1 and W4H2 for Slaanesh. Giving Khorne magic is sort of out of the question, and that's not an exciting amount of magic - probably still worth a mild price decrease, eg, 175 and 350ish pricetags. It would also make the Nurgle Lord actually good at some point since eventually he can cast Soul Vortex). Under this theory, Tzeentch Champion should keep the 200 pricetag and probably become S2 + 50%S + 33%S, as H1 seems less thematic for Tzeentch, but the current state of the Tz champion is acceptable.

The troops, on the other hand, do seem relatively reasonably priced.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

When you are using the mod, make sure you DO NOT enable cbm 1.6, as it is already incorporated in the mod. Otherwise you get weirdness like Archae did.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Ok, here we go. (Sorry for the delay, I was away from a computer for a while). Here is the final version of the chaos mod. I didn't go as radical on the Chaos commanders as Squirreloid suggested, but went in the general direction he presented.

Also, I got struck by an odd bug. The game crashes when I try to start a game, saying a message "too many sprites in a mod". Which is extremely odd, since I started many, many test game with the mod before. The problem is probably on my end.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Hmm, I don't know that the lord of khorne was really so bad off. Last time I played chaos, a lord of khorne was easily able to solo almost any province. They do still have innate fear and weapons of sharpness, right?

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

yah. against crappy indies, maybe. I guess the berserk helps... but really, killing indies isn't much to speak of.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Hmm... i got an error - can't find clandwarf? In the chaos mod? Do i need to be using the other combined mod? Why would that involve clandwarves anyway?

Edit: I suppose relevantly - is the new chaos mod already incorporated into the starting mod? Is it meant to run companion to it?

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

:doh:

My bad. Fixed version in this post (I didn't inlcude graphics, just .dm file, because that is where the error was)

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

I have this sense that even with the changes you've made, Lord of Tzeentch and Champion of Tz are among the only playable options for chaos lords.

I'll agree, the Lord of Nurgle *looks* like he has a lot going on. But have you tried to *use* him? Even the khornate lord outperforms against weak PD.

Stats (Lords)
Khorn: 300g 49r; Str 17 Att 17 Def 22; HP 30 Prot 21; Berzerk 6 Exh 3
Nurgle: 375g 50r; Str 15 Att 15 Def 18; HP 34 Prot 20; H1 Regen20% Fear+0 PR100 Undead PlagueCarrier Rejuvenation
Slaanesh: 375g 49r; Str 13 Att 12 Def 19; HP 24 Prot 20; H1 Awe+3

All have a magical weapon. Slaanesh has a magical ranged attack (enslave mind).

Stats (Champions)
Khorn: 175g 33r; Str 17 Att 17 Def 12; HP 35 Prot 21; Berzerk 5 Exh 3
Nurgle: 250g 33r; Str 15 Att 15 Def 17; HP 30 Prot 20; Regen10% Fear +0 PR100 Undead PlagueCarrier Rejuvenation
Slaanesh: 175g 33r; Str 13 Att 13 Def 16; HP 24 Prot 20; Awe+1

(all are sacred)

Some comparison stats:
EA Atlantis
BQ: 250g 1r; Str 20 Att 12 Def 5; HP 48 Prot 14; H3 Amph F+0 FR50 CR50 DkVis
BK: 500g 1r; Str 21 Att 13 Def 12; HP 51 Prot 16; F1W2E3 +110%? Amph F+0 FR50 CR50 DkVis

A straight up comparison of hte BK with the Lord of Slaanesh reveals that 125g extra for the BK is well worth the price. Stats are reasonably equivalent (BK takes a lower Def in exchange for much higher str, and trades a few pts of prot for almost double HP), but the BK also adds 7.1 magic paths, and trades Awe+3 for amph, Fear, partial resistance to fire and cold, and dark vision. The BK comes out more than 125g extra good compared to the Nurgle Lord as well.

The BQ compares quite favorably to the identically priced Nurgle Champion. H3 is an amazing advantage relative to the Nurgle champion's total lack of casting.

Yomi:
Oni General: 130g 33r; Str 17 Att 13 Def 11; HP 30 Prot 20; D+100%? FR50 PR50 NNE Demon MtnSurv Glutton

A rather comparable chassis to the champion level units, including similar HP, protection, and slightly lower stats - but it also comes with some magical ability. Setting the chaos champions to approximately this price seems emminently reasonable by comparison.

Dao Oni: 500g 39r; Str 20 Att 16 Def 12; HP 50 Prot 20; F2E2D3H1 +110%? F+3 FR50 PR50 NNE Demon MtnSurv Glutton

If 8.1 magic paths beyond H1 isn't much more than 125g good than the chaos lords, i don't know what is. The chassis is otherwise comparable, trading defense for improved str and 80% more HP. Also has fear *+3*, as if it wasn't already a strictly better buy per gp than Nurgle's Lord.

Fomoria:
Nemedian Champion: 140g 25r; Str 13 Att 15 Def 18; HP 15 Prot 10; A1D1H1 Stlth+25 DkVis50 Glamour

Another reasonably comparable chassis to the champions. Note the few shortcomings are probably more than made up for by the magical paths.

Fomorian King: 500g 37r; Str 25 Att 12 Def 13; HP 70 Prot 15; A3D2H2 +110%? PoorAmph CR50 Sailing

Sailing is pretty amazing - it and 6.1 magic paths + an extra holy level go a long way to put it more than 125g beyond the chaos lord choices.

Jotunheim:
Jotun Herse: 60g 41r; Str 21 Att 12 Def 13; HP 32 Prot 17;

This is a perfect comparison. Same HP, not much less protection, more strength at lower att/def, merely sacred with no holy level. And its *1/3* the cost. Based on this, none of the champions should be much over 100g (excepting Tz who has magic).

Basically, there's no way to justify gold costs as high as they are for what those units do. I mean, if you leave it the way it is i can guarantee i'll be playing almost pure Tz and sorcerors for commanders, because they'll be the only ones worth buying.

The best fix is almost certainly to hand out some magic while cutting prices until those units are reasonable.

(The exalted sorceror is probably overpriced at present as well, since for 320g you're expecting quite a bit more magical oomph - compare to Shinuyama's bakemono sorceror).

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Using a unit's performance against PD 'naked', perhaps isn't the best measuring stick on performance. The nurgle guy has poison cloud, that alone gives him a niche against armies of few elite units.

I lowered his gold cost to 275 gold in the latest fix.

As for your insightful posts, I just really want to get the game started. If you feel like only the Tzeentecth guys are usable, just use them then. I don't have time and/or patience to give the lords and champions extensive magic pick and cost revamps and to test them. Chaos is pretty powerful enough as it stands, with its diverse magic, insane pretender chassis, good summons, strong troops and national late-game SC summons. You have some 'dead choices', which is a shame, but we really need to move along here. In hidsight, I should have taken a better look at chaos before starting this game, but what is done is done.

As for your unit comparisons, I find them quite insightful. You are forgetting one thing thought. Context. A lot power of the chassis/unit comes from the other choices you have in the nation. Example: BK would be a lot more powerful chassis in MA Ulm, since ulm has a *lot* better ability to forge gear for it.

Also remember that a nation that would have chassises which are somewhat equal to BK, Dai Oni and Fomorian King (respectively) would be serious candidate for overpowerdness. These units are absolute stars and selling points of their respective nations. You can't just compile an "all-stars" team of SC chassises and expect it to be balanced. There needs to be "diversity cost" added to each of them, where you pay for the options you have. Being diverse and having a lot of good options is also a national strenght, just like being able to bloosac, getting extra points due to temp scales and so forth.

Don't take this wrong, some of the Champions and Lords could probably use a boost, but you should also think of the context when estimating prices. IMHO, you probably should list your thoughts and comaprisons to the Chaos thread, I'm sure that he will find them insightful.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Yeah I agree with burn. Rebalancing chaos is a different issue. Should either be a new project with the permission of panpiper, or submitted in feedback in panpiper's thread.

If they're overpowered or underpowered it will probably come out in this game and that's fine - there's a degree of experiment about any mod nations game.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

with just the 6-pack mod enabled, I am still unable to see any "insane pretender chassis." Also, while those champions/lords do seem over-priced, rebalancing, as was said, needs to be done in total context. Simply comparing one to an EA BK does not do much.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

I suppose my point was mostly that anything anywhere near this cost tends to have *substantial* magic, and that the differences in power between having 6-8 paths in magic and having no magic was large enough that they were clearly and grossly overpriced.

And the jotun herse is probably the most damning comparison, since its (a) MA and (b) has just about everything going on that the chaos champions do at 1/3 their price.

But that's fine, we can play as is.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

A combined mod with the revised Chaos nation is attached.

I tend to agree with squirreloid about the costs of the chaos units (in fact, I think I said much the same thing in the thread to discuss the mod originally,) but those concerns do need to be counterbalanced, and I don't think we should hold up the game over it.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

I have a "name2spell: No such spell" error that causes the game to crash when trying to create a pretender god with the combined mod.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Yeah, sorry about that - have to combine the mods in the correct order or bad things happen. Gimme a minute to sort it out.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Well, that doesn't make any ****ing sense but this order works. Doublecheck all those #d Bretonnian nationals again to make sure that the script handled them right? I'm rather worried about extreme strangeness.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Oh god, is this a ****ing joke? Chaos gets 'Dark Citadel' everywhere - which is an admin 20 UW fortress type for 1200 gold. Seriously? A nation of high gold high resource units that are going to underperform for their cost - exactly what they needed was a high gold long build time fortress everywhere that has crappy administration.

Finally, I keep trying to make this work, but Chaos has so many systematic flaws its ridiculous. It really wants to be a nation of blessed troops, but it has no good way to actually bless them (no priests over H1, and they fail to bless all of *4* troops on a regular basis. A single prophet is not good enough). The non-sacred troops are either insufficiently good to even expand routinely or too resource intensive to field in sufficient mass to accomplish anything. And chaos has none of the good army-buffing schools to improve their performance. Not to mention its hard to mass anything when your real commander choices start at around 200g.

I think I've resigned myself to losing this - there is no way chaos is even really playable without a major overhaul that addresses army synergy and commander costs.

And i just took a look at Itza - Morale 13 Prot 18 mega tramplers with archers on top *and* mages that are ridiculously cheap for what they do? Those mages should be 1k and 2k gold respectively, at the least, and the trampler should probably be near doubled in price since it has no real weaknesses. (What are the disadvantages of elephants? Oh yeah, morale and protection... no such problems here, which is just amazing - and Itza's stegasaurs have a mere 3 enc on top of that so you can't even count on fatiguing them out). Then their scouts are 1g(!) and have glamour(?!?) and stealth *+65*(!!!), and their Ld40 commanders are a mere *20g* 16r with a *magic weapon* (!!!) and good stats. What the hell is this? I bet they get cheap castles somewhere too. They could probably win just by spamming castles and building as many of theose 20g commanders as they can - they don't even need equipment (which they could certainly be provided). They also have cheap researchers, H3 priests, and all of their melee units have magic weapons (!!!). And they get to mass them for peanuts. What *doesn't* Itza do well? I feel like rdonj discovering his enemy has immortal death summons of stupidly awesome.

You know, there was a lot of whining about the Lord of the Endtimes before we nerfed it, but honestly, that's about the only thing Chaos had going for it. (And even he would just die to virtually anything Itza chose to field.) Now he's a glorified 50pt chassis with a 125pt pricetag.

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I'll die on the field of honor, but i think this game could greatly benefit from a serious rebalancing of nations to some standard, probably somewhere in the Bretonnia end of the spectrum, although *any* one standard of balance, even Itza levels of crazy, would be acceptable so long as *all* nations were balanced there. (I think by Itza standards Chaos Lords are like 40-50g units, except for Tz who might rate 200g).

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Edit: I see we nerfed the stats of the Tz Lord at some point too. Well, now they aren't worth 500g anymore, so Chaos officially has *nothing* worth buying. At 500g it should be an SC out of the box. I suggested increase the price or nerf the unit, certainly not both. I feel like the things i thought were a little overpowered have been nerfed into near uselessness, and the things that are underpowered haven't really been improved at all.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

burnsaber/archeo/et al: What would you like me to compare to? I was trying to choose units near the same price point and with vaguely similar advantages - but there are no 400g units without magic. There are no 300g units without magic. Hell, I don't think there are any 200g units without magic. its hard to find decent comparisons when the units in question are so poorly designed that they fall vastly short of everything else remotely near their price range.

I could compare to the brettonian grail hero, which is much better than the Slaanesh lord at 150g less. (only Awe +1, but strictly better stats and *flying*, not to mention not cap only)

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Compare to some nation other than Jotunheim? Giant werewolves and hirdmen are *ridiculously* good thugs. I agree that Chaos is presently, probably weak enough that it won't be fun for Squirreloid. Given how long we're taking anyway I think it's reasonable to take 1 day and make the game at least kinda fair for Squirreloid:
* Lord of Khorne -> 100 gp, lose the exhaustion
* Lord of Slaanesh -> 200 gp, H3, stealthy
* Lord of Nurgle -> 150 gp, H2
* Champion of Khorne -> 80 gp, lose the exhaustion
* Champion of Slaanesh -> 100 gp, H1, stealthy
* Champion of Nurgle -> 100 gp, H1
* Chaos Cultist -> 40 gp
* Chosen of Khorne -> 60 gp, no exhaustion
* Chosen of Slaanesh -> 75 gp, stealthy
* Chosen of Nurgle -> 60 gp
* Chosen Chaos Knight -> 60 gp
* Chaos Knight -> 30 gp
* Foo Chaos Warrior -> 12 gp
* Marauders -> 9 gp

That said, I think you could make the current army work just fine as all Tzeentch all-the-time. Ethereal heavy inf. are *insane*.

Fortress should be a Jewelled City in his horribly decadant capital, and then Citadels (probably the best all around fort in the game) everywhere else.

In the long run, I think Chaos should probably kill population like the evil LA powers?

Itsa is certainly good, but those huge mages have no slots. Compare to an archtheurg -
costs 380, has 7 total picks, maxes out at 4A3B2C1D.
vs
costs 650, has 10 total picks, maxes out at 3A3B2C2D2E2F

I think that's pretty fair. He's not capital only, he's not old, and is certainly somewhat better overall, but those lizardmen are a poor substitute for Legionaires, and the shaman cost more than communicants.

Stegadons cost 2.5x as much as an elephant. I think elephants are better.

I agree that Itsa is much better than Chaos in this setup.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Wow, some of those changes do seem a bit over the top. Exhaustion on lords of khorne in particular is a killer. I have a few ideas for you though squirrel, I'll pm some of the effective expansion parties I've come up with.

As to itza, they don't get anything other than 1400 gold forts, so you do sort of have them beat there. On the other hand, their forts all have a decent admin value. Quite a bit less defense though. Having magic weapons on all their saurus (but not skinks) is a pretty major advantage. But I wouldn't say that you could build an army of unequipped saurus veteran thugs and win the game. They are a bit cheap for how good they are, but even playing NI, it's hard to give up a skink priest for a mere commander. And 1-2k gold for slann? I really hope you're joking, I should show you my turn file for tourmaline and let you see how often those 4th gen slann end up with anything resembling decent paths. Getting anything above level 2 costs a fortune. That said, I can appreciate your frustration. The old chaos seemed a little overpowered to me, but comparing them to some of your competition now, I can certainly see how you could question your chances.

As to what Itza doesn't do well - forge, use death magic, and kill immortal SCs :D. They also don't really make very good thugs, though perhaps they make decent anti-thugs.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

I like the oldbloods - if their forts didn't cost 1400 a pop, they'd be a light thug option