Who here is a Vet?
 

While my personal goal is to find a team captain, I'm keeping the question general so that this thread can stand alone information-wise. (Though if there's a previous thread answering my question, I'd be glad to have it pointed out to me.)

That said, who here is a vet?

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

You mean like a full list? I dont think anyone has ever made one. It might be interesting to have like a full list of players and what they consider thier own rank or something.

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

Well, you can always look at the hall of fame or old NVV games.

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

I have considered many times if it's worth having a thread where every player gets one post to name three players they consider vets. And then when a player has enough votes or points (if the votes are ordered and allocated points) then they get added to a list of vets.

I think a high number of votes/points would ensure no surprise or rigged entries. Say 30+ votes or 100 points (1st=3 : 2nd=2 : 3rd=1). And there also wouldn't be a viewable running total of current votes/points either. As that should stop any "oh look, XYZ only needs another few votes/points to become a vet, so I'll help make him a vet".

I'd be happy to run and maintain a list like this if enough people thought it was a good idea. Or run and maintain any other type of vets list if someone has a better idea of how to do one.

And there also probably needs to be some line drawn between vet players and good players, depending on what the ultimate purpose of any vet list is. Since there are several players who are vets, as in have a lot of knowledge of the game, but are self proclaimed poor players. So being a vet and a good player doesn't always go hand-in-hand.

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

I don't think you need to make it so complicated. When it comes to most vets it's quite easy. For example no one would deny that QM, Baalz, Micah, Ironhawk, archae, atul, Jurri etc are vets.

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

From my direct experience in games (and hence a fairly small sample) my vote is for Calmon as the best player I've come across. QM gets mention as putting in some of the best mods and theory discussion...he'd be a top-notch player, too, if he'd just stop turtling now and again. =)

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

I was about to reply to this thread that no I wasn't, but I do work with animals.

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

Maybe it's just me, but I would rather go through a process to obtain something, rather than just say...

"That's the list of vets. Why? because it just is".


To a new player / forum member, what we have above is just a bunch of random names being mentioned by a random name. Some of those names tie in with the HoF, some of them don't. So new players might wonder how or why certain players have been labelled as a 'vet', and who it was that labelled them. Many probably view the vets as some sort of secret mason-like society, especially with the growing trend of vets only playing in games with other vets.

The HoF maybe isn't all it could be either, with some wins being of different relative value to others. So that's possibly not the most reliable source of vet info, or the best tool for vet identifying as result.

Baalz is probably the most well known vet due to the fantastic guides that he writes. So maybe some then make the distinction that anyone who writes a guide must be a vet. But as many know, that is not necessarily a correct link to make either.

Some of those mentioned above also don't post too often. Jurri for example, while being a mighty fine player, is someone most on these forums have possibly never come across, or even heard of. As they would only really have done so with a visit to the IRC. So to just label an unknown player (to most) a vet might seem like a strange idea to some people.

But if there was a thread dedicated to a list of vets, and a transparent process behind how it was obtained, then players could see clearly why or how players became a 'vet'. (Especially if a few words had to be mentioned on any player being voted for by those voting for them)


So as I said, I am happy to post and maintain a list of vets if it is considered a useful thing to the community. But I would much rather obtain a list via a transparent process that would have a visible post/thread history, rather then just slap-up a list and say....

"Here is the vet list".

Edit:
There's no way Micah can be a vet due to his natural hatred of turtles :)

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

Really, unless we want to go through some system like Calahan is proposing, the only real way to figure out who the "vets" are is just to spend time on the forums. Even then, its a pretty ambigous designation.

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

Eh, well, vet = veteran I guess, so the only real qualifier is has been around for some time/played a lot of Dom3 games. I don't really see why you should need a list of it nor why you should need any explanation.
Unless you are thinking of making a list of skilled players, but that's practically impossible short of personal opinion considering how unbalanced/different games can be, unless you are only counting the top 5 HoF.

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

I would like to state here that it depends on what you mean by the term.

I can be considered a veteran in terms of Dominions 3 knowledge and insights into parts of the game. I am definitely a veteran mapmaker and have above average knowledge of modding, though not as much practical experience as some of the more prolific modders (e.g. Sombre, Burnsaber, Amos and others).

This often translates into people mistakenly ascribing me veteran status as a Dom3 multiplayer, when I actually have all of one MP game under my belt and would get crushed flat in no time even by people who only have a few games under their belt.

If we're talking strictly MP games, some of the names mentioned above and even posting in this thread are a good start but by no means an exhaustive list.

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

That's pretty interesting considering your near inflammatory stance on the use of Mists of Deception in multiplayer games. ;)

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

You don't need to be a master chef to say that the food is bad. Luckily that behaviour is fixed and the thing is of the past.

I never liked the idea of a group of vets, implying that with experience comes great skill. Some people learn fast, other never. A post count tells only that you post a lot, and if I started with Dominions: PPP it only means I've learned a lot of bad habits I should forget already.

If there must be a group that knows better, let us call them Illuminati.

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

also, due to some bizarre accident of racial make-up, Finns get an automatic +1 to veterancy.

:)

true fact

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

Wohoo! I am a 1-point veteran!

The times thanked is btw one way to look who are veteran, or at least post insightful ideas. If somebody has been thanked about fifty times, I for one consider their posts to be usually informative even before I read the actual post :)

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

Wohoo! I'm informative!

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

I am a vet, if you would have it so, at least by my post count. I have played dozens of MP games. That said, I suck at the game itself, and have only won one game, and that was a team game. It's a very experiential thing, to try and count the true vets.

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

Well, there is that. :)

With some things you don't need to have the experience in order to be able to see the implications, especially if you're familiar with many of the mechanics of the game. That one had such obvious implications that I had no problem taking a firm position on it, just based on how I would have felt about either using it myself or having it used against me in a hypothetical situation.

Some other issues have allowed me to form an opinion on a similar basis. I do read MP related posts (such as Baalz guides, which are geared toward that), but my actual practical MP experience is just that one game.

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

I'm not a vet.

I think being thanked a lot only shows that you write posts that people who like to thank like. I have seen some seriously worthless exchanges between people where they were just thanking eachother alternately.

I try to offer people an appropriate level of help (which sometimes means RTFM) but because I don't gift wrap feelgood answers to stupid questions I don't get thanked a lot. Also I'm a bit of a ****.

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

Some of the most ancient of players would definitely be "veterans" but far from any "expert opponents" list. Im not sure that would meet your needs anyway.

For the purpose of the original post I think you might have wanted to ask for people who are consistent winners in a specific type of game. Veteran lists in the past have often aimed toward kill-all games with CBM on medium maps. Since its a team game being created you might want veterans with proven histories in the areas of diplomacy and allied play which I think would be a very different group. In fact I can only think of maybe 1 or 2 people that I would ever consider for both lists. :)

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

lawl at qm thanking me.

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

Yeah the definition of a vet is elusive. To me - it really just means a player who's played a fair amount of MP. That they have a really strong grasp of the core strategy, commonly used tactics and key spells, and some underlying mechanics. Enough so that they can innovate and adapt to problems instead of caving to the first trick tactic they are hit by. But they by no means have to be the best player out there.

I would add some of the folks from the roster that Pasha uses to invite to his games, too. They are generally pretty good. So lets say:

Pashadawg, Atul, Calmon, WraithLord, Okin, DonCorazon, Zeldor, TheDemon, Zlefin, Namad

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

JimMorrison, Executor, atul, Dr. P, Baalz

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

Thats right for this post. AlgaeNymph is looking to recruit one :)

But it is also a fairly good definition for this site. You can quibble with the name but most mp games organised on this site are not blitzes or vast epics or team games or detailed scenarios. There are no sp game of the months (as at the Civ forums) or puzzle scenarios run. With a few exceptions, games are all against all with 8+ players here. These games dominate this site even if blitzes organised elsewhere and sp games in general are played more. Most of the guides and many of the strategy discussions on the site are focuses on this large free for all mp type game too.

So when people talk of mp veterans on this site, I think the sort of person AlgaeNymph is looking for is what they mean. That does not mean that they are any more than that - the very good players of the sort of mp games organised here.

And I don't really like any other criteria in any case for veterans.

I think the Thanks button is good for what it does and in general those people who get a lot of Thanks are those who give helpful advice in threads or have done mods, guides or maps. So people like Edi, gandalf, Baalz, Burnsaber and Sombre quite rightly get plenty of thanks. But I certainly thank people for funny lines or simply to show support in a row/reasoned discussion as well. And I have yet to thank someone for slaughtering me in mp (so bad luck Dimaz, Atul et al) and I am not about to start :) More likely to thank someone who was useless and I rolled them over early on :p So I am not sure how much of a guide it would be to how well they can play.

Those of us who have been here a long time are still waiting for our 5 year Gold Pen icon to appear next to our username :D And I sometimes wonder if Gandalf is only here now to get his Gold Watch icon when he reaches 10 years :p But I am not sure it is a guide quality of play wise.

Number of posts would be a poor guide too. Especially as no distinction is made post wise (or length of time on the board) between Dominions and other games on the board.

So go for it Calahan. I think your idea on recommending 3 people each is great :) Although I would ask for a sentence or so explaining why you have made your picks. Mentioning a game they played well in or tactic they used very effectively. Otherwise you may simply get a lot of people recommending 'famous' names even if they have never played them (or indeed those famous names never actually play mp....)

And finally can some Vet - self appointed or voted in - please sign up to the game AlgaeNymph refered to in his first post. Your team awaits and the rest of us can't start without you :D

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

Don't think I saw them mentioned, ano, kuritza, dimaz, meglobob & karnoza.

IMO, each name on this list can give even Micah a run for it :)

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

Psycho, Amhaizer, Jazzepi

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

If I get a few more nudges on this, then I'll try to get something started next week if I have the time.

In my head I can see several ways of how 'vet voting' could work. So if I do go ahead and do this, what I'll probably do is get my head down and think about it properly (as it's just an 'idea' at the moment), come back with some thoughts on how it could work, and canvass opinions on them.

One thing I'll probably do though is to divide 'vets' into two groups. One with "good players" in, the other containing "highly experienced" ones. Although being on either list is of course not mutually exclusive. And if the term 'vet' is to be associated with the "good player" group (which seems best IMO), then I'd happily welcome suggestions for another term that can be used for the "highly experienced" group.

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

I say it's a fine idea, go for it.

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

Go for it. It's a good idea, as long as you keep it simple. That is, not too much variables. Simply something like 3 points for the first nominee per person, 2 for the second, one for the last, and perhaps a few words why the person deserves that position in their books.

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

I definitely like the idea of a vet thread.

How will you account for continued skill developement? We can't all be the best, but it's conceivable that one day there will be few or no new players - at some point, everyone who's left is probably experienced enough to be a "vet."

(1 set of votes per poster) + (no new posters) = no vet status for the newest vets

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

There are some that would be automatic for a good players Veteran list whom I would shudder as a consideration for a team leader, or even a team player for that matter.

Here is an idea.
Since the goal is to find Team Leaders, one way to find one might be to scroll thru the MP Games forum and look at who started game threads and how smoothly they ran. Look at some of those threads to see who was capable in communicating with the players, suggesting compromises, and eventually making a decision which quickly ended arguments. The people who can handle thread management would make good leaders. There are people here who I love to see managing a game thread even if they are not the frequent winners of those games.

Of course you can bounce that list off of the recommended veterans list for people who have also been recommended as good players.

Gandalf Parker
--
Leading does not always mean being first.
In fact, it often means making sure that YOU are NOT first.

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

Hhhhmmmm, that's a good point. While myself and many others hope the day will never come when the flow of new players into the community would actually stop, I guess it is certainly a possibility. Even if it would be unwanted :( I'll find some way of dealing with it I guess. Perhaps everyone can be allowed to re-vote after 12/18/24 months?

I've had enough pushes to get a vets list done now I guess. The rest of this month is going to be busy in work, so doubt I'll get anything going before October now. But I'll put it on my to-do list for October. So keep an eye out for something then.

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

The problem here is that your trying to apply a binary system to people, who are each unique in their own way. Each person has their own list of strengths and weaknesses, as well as their own interests. Its not really easy to digitize people as 'vets' no matter what standard you use.

I for example think I'm pretty good at running my own nations from early game to late. There have only been a handful of games where I did not see the very end of it, yet I've only won one of my games. I also don't seem to have a whole lot of luck with team games for one reason or another. Yet most of the games I've managed have run quite smoothly in my opinion.

I think it would be better to have a list of players where people nominate what their qualifications are. Qualifications could include things like accomplished modder, small game winner, effective rusher, dominions loremaster, and so on and so forth. A system of nomination would also allow for people's qualifications to increase over time as they improve their skills.

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

Thanks for the feedback and ideas AreaOfEffect. I can certainly see the benefits of asking each person to list a few of their talents and skills, and then pooling that data together in the first post (to allow updating)

Although not sure if that approach will work with everything though. Things like Modding Skill and Dom Knowledge should be fine, but if a system existed where all you had to do to be considered a 'vet' (or good rusher, turtler, nation manager, late-game player, call it what you will) was to say "Hello, my name is Paul, and I'm a Vet" then I can quickly see problems appearing.

The one thing I really want to avoid is to have constant questions raised, either on the public forum, or via private PM, about who should be called a vet. The one thing that would derail this project is posts or PM's like "ZXY said he's a vet so you put him on the list. Why? Surely you know he's rubbish". And the best way I can think of at present to avoid this happening is to have a voting system where a large percentage of players would have to agree with a persons 'vet' status before he/she became one. Although I'm certainly open to suggestions if anyone can think of other ways this scenario can be avoid.

But please keep the thoughts and ideas coming everyone. All very much appreciated. Real Life work pressures and commitments mean I'm a good week or two away from even thinking about this project yet, so the more ideas I have to work with when the time comes, the better the outcome will be (hopefully :))

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

Like I said, determining who is a vet is clearly ambiguous and extremely subjective. In a system of qualifications I would never apply 'vet' status at all. Also, a system of nomination means that someone other then the player in question must bring up the vote to grant a qualification. Then a minimum number of players need to second the motion. Finally, the player up for nomination would have to agree that the qualification describes them.

Just a thought.

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

It might help to avoid some of the distaste for such a system if you widened the categories to other areas where the request for a "vet" comes up. Mods have been mentioned and of course some people come to mind right away such as Sombre. Others might be Maps, Game Generation, Graphics, Installation, possibly even as far as listing specific nations to get some idea of who people automatic think of when someone says they have a problem with that. That would give less of a binary "on the approved list or not" situation for more of a "everyone can be good at something" compromise. Rather like the various tv/movie awards :)

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

Yes, I should've been more specific.:doh:

Who here feels like enough of a vet to captain a team?

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

Gandalf has 158 thanks - he's clearly your man :)

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

clearly ambiguous ... lol = )

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

chrispedersen, your a complete oxymoron. :)

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

AlgaeNymph, your goal is clear: After all those failed attempts at "Dom3 ranks" and "Dom3 ladders", you will have to host a "Dom3 MP Battle for Vetness" to determine the outcome. :p

I'm a veteran timewaster.

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

Wasn't that the Artifact game? ;)

(Hint: Micah won)

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

No. No-one won artifacts. No-one but father time.

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

That's why it must be replayed.

Again and again.

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

I'll have the sense to just lose early and go win 2 other games in the time I save. =)

Re: Who here is a Vet?
 

To that I say: ladder :D

Makes little sense for some vet to go bashing newbs like there's no tomorrow :)

BTW, I used to play online chess on Yahoo-games. They have a cool built in ladder system that adds a lot to the experience.