New Nation: The Monestary of the Way
 

I've been working on this new nation for a short while, I've finished the easy part, making the source file with the units and their abilities, and all that is left is the unit graphics and some play-testing. So, let my introduce you to "The Monastary of the Way".

Themed off of far eastern monks, the nation consists light to unarmed monks with less in the realm of armor, but higher levels in thier skills. Three of their seven units are sacred, with 1 of those Cap-Only. They only have 4 commanders, but they are all sacred, with three of them having levels of holy magic. All units have 10hp and a Str of 10 and a base resource cost of 1. Their equipment is all very low in resource costs, so they are cheep to mass produce, but can be quick to perish., They have an assassian, the ninja, and a single mage, the Wu Jen, who can be skilled in Air, Water, and/or Earth. The short list of their units/commanders are:

Unit 1 Monk Student (Fist, Fist, No Armor)(Att/Def both 10, Morale 12) (5g)
Unit 2 Initiate (Fist, Fist, Throwing Stars, Robes)(Att/Def/Mor & MR 11) (10g)
Unit 3 Staff Initiate (Quarterstaff, Kick, Throwing Stars, Robes)(Att/Def/Mor & MR 11) (10g)
Unit 4 Blade Initiate (Katana, Throwing Stars, Robes)(Att/Def/Mor & MR 11) (10g)
Unit 5 Staff Expert (Quarterstaff, Kick, Kick, Throwing Stars, Robes, Sacred)(Att/Def/Mor & MR 12) (25g)
Unit 6 Nightblade (Katana, Throwing Stars, Master's Robes, Stealthy, Sacred)(Att/Def/Mor & MR 12) (25g)
Unit 7 Master (Fist, Fist, Kick, Kick, Master's Stars, Master's Robes, Cap-Only, Sacred)(Att/Def/Mor & MR 13) (40g)

Commander 1 Ninja (Katana, Throwing Stars, Master's Robes, Sacred, Assassian, Stealthy, Spy)(Att/Def/Mor & MR 13) (50g)
Commander 2 Monestary Leader (Fist, Fist, Kick, Kick, Master's Stars, Master's Robes, Sacred, H2 magic, Good Leader)(Att/Def/Mor & MR 14)(100g)
Commander 3 Wu Jen(Fist, Robes, Sacred, H1 Magic & WAE 100/.75/.5/.25 Magic, PoorLeader) (Att/Def/Mor 11 & MR 15)(150g)
Commander 4 Grandmaster (Fist, Fist, Kick, Kick, Master's Stars, Grandmaster's Robes, Sacred, H3 Magic, poor leader)(Att/Def/Mor & MR 15) (250g)

The throwing stars almost all are equipped with are AP attacks but are a max damage of 1. They are included primarily for
appearence, but they can weaken their opponents and might cause morale checks.

I'm tempted to remove all magic items slots except the Misc slots from the commanders as a show of their beliefs, haven't decided yet.

They have 2 sites that in combination allow recruiting on Masters, Grandmasters and WuJen, while giving 1A1W1E mana.

The have 7 national summons, 4 unit and 3 commander.
The unit summons consist of:
Wandering One (similar to Master but with skills 1 higher)
Earth Spirits (Can throw bolders and strike with fists)
Water Spirits (Throw AP javelins of ice, strike w/ fists, amphibious)
Air spirits (Throw AN blasts of sand, and strike w/ lightning storms, flies)

The spirits all require 1 Holy + 1 Air/Water/Earth to cast, limiting them to the Wu Jen, but only cost 2 gems for 1+ to respond.

The commander summons are three unique dragons of Earth, Water, or Air and are powerful mages (E4 or W4 or A4) mages in their own right. Their mere presence summons a spirit of the appropriate element, and they can recruit another 2/turn if they aren't needed to do anything else. They are difficult and expensive to summon however, requiring someone skilled in 3 levels of the appropriate element and Holy 3, meaning only a Wu Jen profit or an empowered gransmaster can summon them, for the 75 Gem cost. Being unique, they can be resummoned when killed.

There are 3 hero's for this nation, the Master Ninja (as ninja w/ greater skills), the Great Wandering Master (a Holy 4 grandmaster), and an ancient Wu Jen (Holy 3 + 1 element at 3 (random)).

I want to add some national spells, but I don't know the spell effects # I need to use for them. (when can I find this?)

Those spells are:
Ki Meditation -- H1, Area 2+, Makes attacks magical
Focus Ki-- H3, Area 1+, attacks get Armor Piercing
Flow with the River -- W1, Area 1+, boost to increase Defense (+2)
Great Rapids -- W3, Entire army boost to Defense
Run like the Wind -- A1, Area 2+, boost to movement (+8 ap)
Windstorm -- A3, Entire Army Boost to movement
Roots of the Rock -- E1, Area 1+ Boost to Protection (+2)
Roots of the Mountain -- E3, Entire army Boosts to Protection (+2)


I have yet to decide which era to place the nation and they won't have any unique pretender, but I plan on making the oriental themed pretender's available to them.


Any thoughts?
Hopefully I'll get to the graphics soon.

Re: New Nation: The Monestary of the Way
 

Interesting work, just a small pointer: the correct spelling is "Monastery":)

About the spell effects, I found somewhere on the forum a spreadsheet that lists all that you need...but I can no longer find the thread, so I'm attaching the file here, and if someone knows who did it, give him the proper credit:D In the files(there's both the Excel and Openoffice version) you'll find all the spells of the game with their effect and damage.

Re: New Nation: The Monestary of the Way
 

My first impression is that the nation needs a power-up.

The capital gem income is a little on the light side, even if you place the nation in the late era and the Wu Jen being tied to a capital site means that your only mage with paths in non-holy magic is capital only.

The first thing you should do is probably make the Wu Jen recruitable everywhere and up the capital gem income to adequate levels (standard is 6 EA, 5 MA and 4 LA).

Furthermore as the only mage, the Wu Jen is not good enough. You have no access to astral, nature or death (or blood for that matter), which limits the nation severely, but it could probably be handled if the presence in the elements were stronger. Instead you have no fire access and the chances for a powerful caster in the three paths you do have are too small.

Adding a little astral or nature magic would go a long way, but if you insist on keeping the access to air, water and earth, you should probably make the paths less random.


When it comes troops, you seem to lack anything usable against ranged attackers. Considering this, the spell making attacks armour piercing should probably have a greater area. As is, your troops will mostly have trouble going through armoured foes. With multiple attacks they will not have much trouble hitting, but with 10 strength, fists and kicks will not do enough damage. The katana-wielding monks have better damage but not multiple attacks, so a lot of their hits will be shield hits. Taking down medium to heavy infantry will take quite some time and since all you have is lightly armoured troops without shields, this is time you do not have as bows will make very short work of you.

Have you considered this? I find it very much harder to evaluate troops than it is magic, so I may very well just have missed something blindingly obvious.

However that may be, you nation seems rather interesting.

Re: New Nation: The Monastary of the Way
 

Gem income:
I didn't want to favor any of the three elements I chose for the nation, and I initially thought 2A2W2E was high. If placed in early era, this is doable, all 1's would be Late era.

Wu Jen:
- I admin this is where I was doing the most pondering. The nation is holy magic heavy, and intended to be so.
- My original desire was for 2(AWE) and then .5/.25 (AWE), but you can't give 2 levels at one with #custommagic and #magicboost doesn't do exactly what I want.
- My other options are:
- - A. starting w/ 1A1W1E and then #custom magic AWE 100/.5/.25 This would guarantee 2 in one, and a chance for 3 and a rare 4
- - B. Having a #magicboost 1 is all three areas and then having AWE of 100/.5 This would guarantee 2 is one area, and possible 2 in other area or 3 in one area.
- Recruitable everywhere.... Maybe I'll make an Apprentice who's AWE 100/50 and not proficient in Holy magic.


Troops:
I actually designed the nation to have a temporary weekness to missile attacks. There are already existing spells that can be researched that can help defend from ranged attachs as well as a possible bless for the sacred troops.
The national summons were specifically designed to fill out the ranged attacks role with increasing levels of strength. (Bolders, Armor piercing, armor negating)

Their robes give minimal protection, but increased defense, giving them better chances at avoiding attacks, and almost no encumbrance. The quarterstaffs will boost those troops defense even higher. Again, blesses for the sacred troops can boost these areas as well.

As for offensive power, the nation is designed for large numbers of multiple attack troops. With the open ended 6, the multiple attacks, while having trouble w/ armor will eventually break through, with their high morale, Def, and MR able keep them on the field. Also, if the player is willing to go for a strong bless outside the nation's magic focus, the sacred troops have 3 other optional areas to boost damage output (fire/death/blood).

I left fire & death outside of the nation's magic specifically to force the player to have to choose between choosing a pretender of the nation's magic area or for going outside the nations focus for the bless.

Generic change:
As all commanders are sacred, perhaps I should make discounted temples, but I don't remember if this is possible.

Given the human focus, i'm assuming this is a LA nation.

If Wu Jen is going to be capitol only I'd seriously make it A2W2E2 + 100%AWE + 50%AWE. Most LA Mages have low average path level, but also have a lot of different paths - being as focused as the Wu Jen is, greater depth is almost certainly justified. I don't think such a mage would be too out of line even if it were recruit anywhere given its your only mage.

@Amorphous - it would appear the nation's answer to heavily armored troops is Rusting Mist and/or Ironbane. (Ironbane being so essential for this nation, I against strongly urge A2W2E2 base for the Wu Jen so you get sufficient E3 casters).

Units: if they're relying on defense to stay alive, 10-13 is not going to cut it, that's pretty low defense values honestly - many nations can get 11/11/13 with better armor trivially. I'd up the lowest defense to 13, and scale defense up by 2 per grade (so 15 on the initiates, 17 on the experts, and 19 on the master). These are perfectly reasonable defense totals for characters who are supposed to be good defensively, as opposed to the rather mediocre numbers you've given them. (leave attack and str as is, those are fine).

Roots of the Mountain and the lesser version don't increase protection enough. Seriously, barkskin gives +8 protection (same effect as Protection, Wooden Warriors, Mass Protection). I'd see that as a minimum for the spell to be useful.

Gems:
4 is really a minimum for capitol gem income. Perhaps an H1N1 +10%NS recruitable anywhere called Contemplative? Then you can give 1a 1w 1e 1n gem income for an LA nation (+1s for MA, 2a2w2e for EA, but this definitely doesn't look like an EA nation).

Even with those changes, an F9W9 pretender is virtually mandatory to actually make good use of those sacreds, and the non-sacred troops aren't going to take you very far. Combine that with a barely passible mage chassis (after my suggested improvement) and you're looking at a fairly weak nation that has to play bless to do anything. You might consider the scales you think the nation should end up with, because i'm seeing Tu3 S3 Temp+-3 D3 Lk3 Mg1 with an F9W9++ blessing (A or S maybe).

Edit:
Also, X3H3 summon is stupidly hard to acquire. Exceedingly stupid. Do you actually want people to play with these? At 75 gems it better be able to own fully-equipped Tarts naked, and that's assuming a national mage can just throw one down whenever. Needing your prophet to be an appropriate Wu Jen or the player to gratuitously waste gems empowering a non-mage besides means summoning one needs to make you win the game or its just not worth it.

Re: New Nation: The Monestary of the Way
 

I agree with Squirrelloid about most things.

But I want to stress that archers will be a problem as far as I can see. I was unclear, but my intention was not to say that the troops are useless against medium to heavy infantry - bump the defence up a bit and they will do fine - but that they are nowhere near good enough to make up for their vulnerability to ranged fire. You have no national blockers and requiring a substantial air bless just to make do is not good for a nation that also requires high dominion (to make use of the bless) and has next to no magical diversity. You cannot count on the pretender to do everything.

Spells really does not cover it as it will take quite some time to research the necessary ones. Arrow fend and fog warriors are ideal but come late and earlier than that storm and to a lesser extent mist will help. But you need time to research them.

As is, there is also the problem of lack of access to thugs and SCs. Squirrelloids suggested nature mage would help a lot here.

Re: New Nation: The Monestary of the Way
 

There are limits on the spells you can make to boost defense and protection. I don't think you actually can boost defense, apart from via quickness, and protection can either be barkskin, stoneskin or ironskin, nothing else. However you can couple these spells with appropriate elemental resists (again, most of them 100%) so that your troops don't get elemental weaknesses. For example the "resilience" spell in Tomb Kings is meant to make troops resistant to the danger and heat of the desert, and is Barkskin + Fire resist, which for some reason ends up giving them the protection bonus and 25% fire resist (not sure where the number 25 comes from).

Re: New Nation: The Monestary of the Way
 

I think it is cool to have mages only in your capital, but these should be really good in that case. Then you would be forced to use the masters in combat.

Grand master should be non capital or it will never be recruited in favor of your only mage. Make it expensive enough that you still recruit mostly masters.

Make holy reseachable self buffs for your masters, so they become viable thugs. If you want to remove slots, remove hand slots to emphasise unarmed combat.

Re: New Nation: The Monestary of the Way
 

How about Invulnerability, can that be used in modded spells?

I suppose 75% fire weakness from barkskin + 100% fire resist = 25% fire resist? Maybe you could add a second fire resistance effect like fire ward.

Re: New Nation: The Monestary of the Way
 

Research is big problem with cap only mages, regardless how strong they are.
I would make the mages recruitable at every fort and the grandmasters so good that you want to use your capital spot for them.

Re: New Nation: The Monestary of the Way
 

Agree with illuminated one. You need a non-cap-only mage to be able to compete in research.

Re: New Nation: The Monestary of the Way
 

the name Monastery gave me an image that maybe it would be a nation built around a turtling strategy. It would be nice to have a strong turtling nation that can be used as an AI opponent.

Re: New Nation: The Monestary of the Way
 

Oh yes, invulnerability too. Basically you can use the effect of any spell from the base game, but there are limits to what new effects you can create. Specifically, buffs are generally limited to existing effects, i.e. you can't make a +3 strength spell (+4 only IIRC).

Re: New Nation: The Monestary of the Way
 

Thanks for all of the input guys. Let me examine the numbers again and I'll see what tweeks I'll make.

One comment I 'll make is that my original reason the dragon's were so expensive was they were are effectivly free casting of the unit spells for as long as you keep them alive. With your advice I will probably switch them to X5H1 requirement to cast, leaving any Wu Jen with some boosters able to cast.

Get back to you w/ more

Re: New Nation: The Monestary of the Way
 

Pased off of the opinions I've heard, I've made the following changes:

Making Late Era, Capital Gems are now 1AWES

Increased Defense of most units, and I also decided to add minimal base protection (represents training to endure hardships 1-4 depending on the tier of the troop) and minor HP increases(2-6 hp). These aren't much, but may equal 2 hits to kill instead of 2, I should clarify that the robes worn aren't just for show. (see below)

Wu Jen magic increases to 2AWE1H + 100% AWES + 50% AWE. They are still CAP-only.
Added Apprentice, an anywhere 1AWEH + 100% AWE w/ Research bonus 2 ("So into their studies to become master Wu Jen, they often stumble onto forgotten lore.")

As to the Great Dragons, they are each 300hp creatures w/ 5 attacks + Dragon's Roar (an AOE1 Paralyzing attack). They also have Awe (+0), an appropriate resistance for their element, & spread domain like the juggernaut, in addition to magic skills and auto-summoning. I did change them to X5H1 to summon, but left the Gem cost high.


Basic troops now sit at:
Unit 1 Monk Student (Fist, Fist, No Armor)(Att 10/Def 12/Morale 12) (5g)
Note: The only reason the studen is hear is as optional chaff, similar to a couple other nations.
Unit 2 Initiate (Fist, Fist, Throwing Stars, Robes)(Att/Mor/MR 11 & Def 12) (10g)
Unit 3 Staff Initiate (Quarterstaff, Kick, Throwing Stars, Robes)(Att/Mor/MR 11 & Def 12) (10g)
Unit 4 Blade Initiate (Katana, Throwing Stars, Robes)(Att/Mor/MR 11 & Def 12) (10g)
Unit 5 Staff Expert (Quarterstaff, Kick, Kick, Throwing Stars, Master's Robes, Sacred)(Att/Mor/MR 12 & Def 14) (25g)
Unit 6 Nightblade (Katana, Throwing Stars, Master's Robes, Stealthy, Sacred)(Att/Mor/MR 12 & Def 14) (25g)
Unit 7 Master (Fist, Fist, Kick, Kick, Master's Stars, Master's Robes, Cap-Only, Sacred)(Att/Mor/MR 13 & Def 16) (40g)

I didn't do all the math, but most the unit are 2-3 resources cost.

Note on robes, they had prot and def not from actual protection but more to represent the ability to turn an blade or arrow from hitting the defender, as I've seen in too many movies ;)
Robes: Prot 3, Def 3, Enc 0
Master's Robes: Prot 5, Def 3, Enc 0
Grandmaster's Robes: Prot 7, Def 5, Enc 0

Still designing National spells, having to research the spell effects, the spreadsheet and my lack of sleep aren't making it easy.

Re: New Nation: The Monestary of the Way
 

Oh, the robes *add* defense? Hmm... didn't realize that before. May want to tone the inherent defense down a little. Actually, scratch that, I'd tone the defense bonus for the robes down because that's easier to balance. If you insist on them providing defense, i'd go with Def 1 for Robes/Masters Robes and Def 2 for GM Robes. (Most armor takes away from defense, or is otherwise neutral). But def 0 robes would actually be fine.

(While a robe can be used defensively, that's more the skill of the person rather than the quality of the robe itself, and is better reflected in the natural defensive skill of the person wearing it).

Re: New Nation: The Monestary of the Way
 

Well, I calculated the Def from the robes into my final goal values for the unit/commanders. I'll actually leave the Def values in the armor for another reason.

I've been pondering wether or not to take away the item slots from the commanders (and units) and have decided not to. The reason I have been thinking about removing them was to keep the idea of their training in unarmed combat (or staves/katana), and didn't want them to stray from these options. Doing so, however, takes away from the players options.

So...

I will be making new Fist and Kick values for the Units, which will be marginally better than the normal fist/kick weapons. The reason is that I will shift some of their attack/defence skill into their custom fist/kick attacks (maybe I'll just name it Martial Arts). So, they will be more skilled with their default weapons/armor, but if a player chooses otherwise, they can do so, but will lose some of the attack/defense skill for the magic of the equipment. This will represent their lack of training in said items.

Example: Player want to armor up his Temple Leader.
Their normal Protection is 3 inate +5 Armor, and Defense 17 inate 3 Armor (20 total).
Slap Black Steel Full Plate on them and ...
Protection is 3intate + 22 Armor, and Defense 17 inate -5 Armor (12 total)

How does that sound for making a way to balance their skill with their trained attacks vs giving options for equipping other items?

Re: New Nation: The Monestary of the Way
 

I think "martial arts" weapons bosting attack and defence is a great idea! Agree on the robes as well, monks should be very reluctant at taking their robes of :P

I thought of the possibility to have cheap researchers without magic instead of non cap mages. Then you could compete in research but would still have a strong case for the masters in times of war.