M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

If I could recommend two small changes to the British OOB:

1. Change the name of the Tank Destroyer M10 (unit 187) to ‘Wolverine’ or ‘Wolverine M10’ or ‘3in SP Wolverine’.

2. The Achilles (units 44,155, 223) supposedly had additional armour added, during the conversion from M10 (3in gun) to Achilles with 17Pdr.

US names
M10 3in GMC (Gun Motor Carriage) I/II, was the USA designation for this ‘Tank Destroyer’ with M7 gun.

British names
‘Wolverine’, was the British name for the above unconverted M10’s in British service, but Achilles I/II was the official British name for unconverted M10’s, aka. 3in SP Wolverine.

Achilles Ic/IIc, was the British name for M10’s converted to 17Pdr gun. aka. 17Pdr SP Achilles.

Armour

The only other change carried out on the Achilles was the addition of 17 mm thick armour plates welded to the front and sides of the M10 to increase armour protection, as well as a 20 mm thick shield fitted to the top of the turret to provide protection from overhead threats that resulted from the M10 having an open top turret.

Source:
http://anonymous-generaltopics.blogs...abel/Wolverine

Apparantly, 1,100 of the 1,648 M10's, that Britian got from the US, were eventually converted to 17Pdr Achilles.

The above quote makes it sound like the additional armour was part of the standard conversion process. But I've not seen this before, so I guess it's possible that not all 1,100 were up-armoured; perhaps only some. Anyone know?

http://dc172.4shared.com/img/1385477...Achilles_1.jpg

http://dc172.4shared.com/img/1385477...achilles_2.jpg



Cross

---

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

This one looks like it has additional turret armour:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/damopabe/3322864425/




.

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

Would the basic M10 Wolverine be deserving of a bunp in Fire Control from 3 to 4? The Achilles has a 5, but compared with the regular M10 it has the same crew layout and open top for enhanced spotting.

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

I’ve looked at a few more photos of the Achilles, and I don’t see a clear case for a covered turret.

You can identify the Achilles 17Pdr, from other tank destroyers/self-propelled guns, by the large muzzle brake and the counter-weight just behind it.

The two photos in the OP could have been a field mod. The additional armour looks the same in both photos, but perhaps it’s photos of the same vehicle, or an Achilles field modded by the same workshop.

I did find another site/source that talks about the extra 17mm and 20mm plates, but they suggest the 20mm was just added to the front of the turret top, not covering the whole turret.

Here:

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.p...anks&Itemid=57



/Cross

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

The fire control increase for the M10's had already been addressed and I will put the rest of this on the list to investigate

Don

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

Note that under Achilles in their data list there is nothing entered for top armour. I think all they did was weld a bullet shield to the top of the turret to help protect the crew. It's not an "additional" 20 mm, it's just 20mm of steel where none existed before

Don

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

I think you are right.


/Cross

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

Please don't :) These names were something created in the British Department of Tank Design as part of a general naming scheme for British and US tracked vehicles. They never caught on outside the department and you wont find any contemporary sources using them. In fact, even manuals for these vehicles do not use these names.

If you want to use the proper British names for these vehicles, they were simply

SP, 3-inch, M10
SP, 17-pr, M10

Even your internet reference alludes to this fact: "The name "Achilles" was however not a wartime designation; at the time the vehicle was called 17pdr M10, or 17pdr SP M10, or even occasionally, "Firefly"."

Not as a rule. I'm aware of one or two pictures of 17-pr M10s with add on armour, but the bulk were just plain old US M10s with a different gun.
Incidentally the original US vehicle was prepared for bolt-on armour from production, hence all the bolts on the front (all) and side (only early production vehicles). It appears to have been used very rarely.

See above - say Achilles and Wolverine to a WWII vet of any sort and he wouldn't know what you were talking about. :)

The turret top protection in the two pictures was a US invention, apparently improvised locally in Europe in 1945. Again a feature very rarely seen on US M10s and to my knowledge never on British M10s.

The British M10s did occasionally come with a so-called blast roof, which covered only the front part of the turret and again, it appears to be something developed in the winter of 1944/45 and rarely seen on M10s.

The roof you see most often in pictures of M10s are on M10s converted to M36 of which the very late production vehicles recieved an armoured roof. The roof appears to have been retrofitted to other M36 in post-war use in Korea and with the French and Pakistani army. I do not recall if the Yugoslavian Army M36 had roofs?
In any case, it is feature that probably did not make it to the front in WWII.

cbo

In the spirt of .." if I make one guy happy I make one guy unhappy " I have renamed it M10 Wolverine. The Achilles stays Achilles. If I started using the "official" designations I'd end up with things like "Truck,3-Ton,GS" :)



Don

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

Hi CBO,

Names

I respect your purist, and historical approach. No, really I do. :D

But I don’t think what the troops of the day did or didn’t call equipment should be the criteria with which things are named in the game; but I do agree that this should be taken into account.

In my opinion, the game should use names that are universally accepted and recognized by the players. ‘M10 Wolverine’ is far more recognizable (in the 21st Century) than ‘M10’. The OOB can be confusing enough for new players; let’s make it a little easier for them. :)

The Wolverine name is widespread and universal. Today, even the Americans have adopted the name, often referring to their own M10’s as ‘Wolverine’ in books and on websites. I guess similar to how many US (non-purists) call their M4 ‘Sherman’.

Don't worry, I'm not suggesting changing the US OOB to use 'Sherman'.

BTW, most sources I have seen do include ‘Wolverine’ and ‘Achilles’ in the ‘Official’ WW2 designation for the British M10.

Ps. Are you also suggesting (to be consistent) we should not use the name ‘Achilles’ in the British OOB?

Armour

Thank you for the additional info on the armour. You have confirmed my suspicions about the photos and local field fits.

I had heard about the M10 being originally prepared for additional bolt-on armor. I wasn’t sure if this is what the Brits took advantage of during the 17Pdr upgrade. But the source about the additional armour specifically said ‘welded”. I guess history is a mystery…


cheers,
Cross

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

British Names

I’ve long used the names ‘Wolverine’ and ‘Achilles’ when playing wargames – but I don’t think those names were actually used much during WW2 – if at all. Here are three different sources on the subject.

British Armour in the Normandy Campaign, 1944 by John D Buckley:

M10 and M36 Tank Destroyers 1942-53 by Steven J. Zaloga:

British Tank Destroyer Achilles 17-pdr M10 SP by Wojciech J. Gawrych:

The names ‘3-in M10’ and ‘17-pdr M10’ may be more historically accurate than Wolverine and Achilles – but the names Wolverine and Achilles are better known by most wargamers.

Armour

I don’t think the 17-pdr M10 received additional armour. The Gawrych book on the Achilles looks at the vehicle in great detail and does not mention any additional armour being added as standard. The photo of a 17-pdr M10 taken during Operation Varsity shows a RA vehicle that has been fitted with a field-expedient sheet metal roof. The Gawrych book also has a photo of a 17-pdr M10 fitted with appliqué armour, but it makes it clear that the additional bolted plates were of a “provisional field based design, since auxiliary armour plates intended for the M10 were never manufactured.”

A New Suggestion - The LBM

The LBM for the British 17-pdr M10 ‘Achilles’ clearly shows an M10. There is a LBM for the Achilles in winspmbt which could be used instead: PM07025. Any new LBM could also be used for the Canadian and Polish Achilles.

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

What I'm objecting to is the notion that Achilles should be used because it is an official name. It was, but only within the walls of the DTD. Everywhere else, the official name was SP, 3-inch, M10 and SP, 17-pr, M10.

Wolverine was never an official British name for the M10 of any sort, perhaps not an official name at all.

As for names being "universally recognized by players", it would seem to me that after the game has been out there for nearly 15 years and its SPCamo incarnations for 10+ years, the names for the M10 that are in the game use work just fine :D

I've never heard anyone complain that they could not find these vehicles - as opposed to finding out what hides under the PZFNWKTH in the German OOB or the CarArmGrGa in the italian :D:D

Sure. Achilles is known because someone back in the day stumbled upon that name, probably in the DTD archives, and used it in his books. Later it was used in the "Armour Profiles" and "British and US Tanks of WWII" in the 1960ies, and the it stuck. And since everyone is copying everyone, it still used all over the place.

The issue was dealt with extensively by Dick Harley in a series of articles on the M10 in AFV News back in the 1990ies, using British archival records. Harleys research did not find any mention of "Wolverine" in the DTD records or anywhere else, so exactly how that name came to be is anyones guess. It would fit the Canadian practice of naming AFVs after wildlife, so perhaps that is the source. Your source "anonymous" seems to think along those lines, as he suggests that Wolverine was a Canadian M10 prototype based on the Ram chassis. Never heard of that one before though...?

As for the "Achilles", you wrote:

There was not, to my knowledge, ever a M10, 3-inch GMC I/II. I'm not sure what the two roman numerals would indicate?

As for your description of British names, it makes no sense to me? Wolverine was British name for unconverted M10s but they were officially called Achilles as well?

The reality is that there was one US version of the M10, the 3 inch Gun Motor Carriage M10.
When the DTD was labelling them - and they apparently did not do so until 1945 - all M10s, converted or not, were called Achilles. The Achilles I being vehicles with the early turret (V-shaped turret rear), the Achilles II being vehicles with the later turret (flat rear turret). When converted to SP, 17-pr M10, they became Achilles Ic and IIc respectively.

Still, the names probably never existed outside the DTD - and in misguided postware litterature ;)

I suggest game designers do whatever works and make them happy. :)

Or perhaps we should be carefull using as reference an unreferenced post by someone called "anonymous" and "Mr. Bunny" on some interweb blog :D

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

...and that would be so nice! :);)

cbo

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

I've already added a better photo as PM00412

Don

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

While I kind of agree with you CBO, I don't want to be the one Don asks to do all the research and make all the changes.:sick: I'm sure that Don would appreciate any help on the project if you wanted to volenteer. ;):D

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

Hi CBO,

Well at least you recognize that ‘Achilles’ was an official name, but it obviously didn’t remain within the walls of the DTD, because now – like it or not – it is widely recognized. :)

But this is all academic, as it doesn’t much matter which department where called what when; or which source trail backs it up.

The fact is, the British M10 is widely recognized around the world, in books and on the internet as the ‘Achilles’ and ‘Wolverine’.

After this thread I looked at SPWaW, and the 3in version is called ‘Wolverine’ the 17Pdr ‘Achilles II C’. I don’t mention WaW as reputable source, not at all, but as another example of common usage.

Armour
As for referencing a site which has “anonymous” in the title, well I didn’t claim it was a credible source, in fact I was suspicious of the info. When you are talking about WWII trivia, you can find seven sites with eight different opinions; and half those sites have very official sounding names. :doh:

cheers,
Cross

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

If its misguided most tank museums get it wrong to, Cross lists its full name correctly but in the field it tended to be called Wolverine or M10 plus gun as in M10 17Pdr
This helped us poor Brits tell what it was as naming equipment by a number did not seem to work well with the Brit mind set I guess, its a what so many Ms:)
Achillies implies its got a soft spot
Wolverine its fast & American as in the animal, perhaps a bit cunning to. Though luckily Baldrick was not around at the time

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

Nah, I've done my stint of several years as an SPWW2 playtester, including a fair bit of OOB fiddling of this nature :)

cbo

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

Revisit my first post - I'm saying the same thing I've been saying all along.

...and I have just told you why it is so. Doesn't change the fact that it was never used during the war outside the DTD and Wolverine has no official origin and no one - not even on the Interweb, seems to be able to agree on what Wolverine is actually referring to :)

But I can see that you subscribe to the "if 1.00.000.000.000. flies like ****, then **** must be the greatest thing"-school of thought ;)

In my world, SPWaW is not a reputable source for anything :)

Also, in my world, reputable sources are those which has their references in order, which excludes 99,9% of Interweb pages which cannot even be bothered to list the books from which they are illigally copying pictures and information.

Why, then, do you think its take on names are credible....?:)

Dont get me wrong, in this day and age, you sometime have to rely on Interweb for information on obscure things, but the basic rules of research still applies. What Mr. Bunny thinks and writes without reference to anything is useless dribble that no one should bother much about. At least go for webpages which has a known author and have some kind of references. They are out there, you know :)

cbo

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

It may be news to you, but museums gets lots of stuff wrong - often they just use the information available to you and me, primarily books, and they will, like any one else who has not had the time and opportunity to dig into the matter, get it wrong.

I would like to point out redcoat2's post, which clearly shows that the naming issue regarding the M10 is being dealt with in books, showing that not everyone is satisfied endlessly repeating the same old info.

He does?

..and this you know how?

Actually, judging from manuals and wardiaries, the British were perfectly capable of using silly things like M10, SP, 17-pr M10 and such :)

And you know this how....?

Seems more likely that the DTD decided that self-propelled anti-tank guns should have names beginning with A - like Archer, Achilles and Avenger...:)

There is nothing fast about an M10, nor does Wolverine fit what appears to be the DTDs naming conventions for SP anti-tank guns. Maybe there is a reason why it wasn't used in WWII.... :)

cbo

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

Hi CBO,

I don't. I never used that source to suggest anything about names. That source was merely showing where the armour quote came from. And my reference treated the source with scepticism.

Look, I have constantly agreed with you that 'Wolverine and Achilles' were probably not used by WWII troops. My very first reply to you made that clear, and I've continued to agree with you. :)

My assertion (stated in my first reply and subsequently) is that the game should use names that are universally accepted and recognised by 21st Century players.

Advanced Squad Leader: Wolverine and Achilles

Battlefront and Flames of War Minatures: Wolverine and Achilles

Bovington Tank Museum: "Precise Name: 17 Pounder Achilles Mark IIc"

But BTM lists this vehicle as "M10 (17Pdr)" which is historically correct.

CBO, remind me never to play ancient Eygyptian/Roman wargaming with you: "Dude, it's not a catapult it's a Catapultae Marcus XVII." :D

peace,
Cross

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

We will leave it as you seem to be getting a bit heated & it is after all a game so as long as most people can recognise it thats all thats really required.

As to naming conventions Archer probably implies its a stand off weapon Achillies as in Greek God. And speed compared to the average Brit medium tank of the day yes it was fast. So was the Cromwell & some other rarer beasts

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

lmp, Cross

When arguments fail, one hears only mockery and silence :)

I might want to remind Cross, that he initially wrote, as a argument for changing the names of the M10 in the British OOB:

British names
‘Wolverine’, was the British name for the above unconverted M10’s in British service, but Achilles I/II was the official British name for unconverted M10’s, aka. 3in SP Wolverine.

Achilles Ic/IIc, was the British name for M10’s converted to 17Pdr gun. aka. 17Pdr SP Achilles.

As I think we both agree now, Wolverine was never a British name for anything and that Achilles was a name only used within the walls of the DTD, not even being used in manuals for the M10.

In your initial post you never made the argument that the game should use these names because they were in common use or well known by players in the 21st Century.

Hence my argument that it would be silly to change the name from something which obviously works to something which is simply wrong in the case of "Wolverine".

I have no real beef with your revised position that the game should use names that players recognize when possible.

Personally, I would go for something as close to what the vehicles were actually called, if possible, as I see no harm in a game being educational and aid in dispelling old myths, be it with regards to tactics, performance or, in this case names. :)

cbo

PS: lmp, I'm not getting "heated", I'm just persistent. But I must admit, perhaps, to a slight intolerance of people arguing on the basis of pseudofacts and thing they just make up :)

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

With you three going at it , it's like having Chucky back with the echo on.

Point 1--- where I to actually subscribe to the idea that all names of all units in the game should adhere to whatever it was referred to in the "official" field manuals I would, quite often, bump into the hard as bedrock unit name limit on more than a few occasions which would necessitate I deviate from the "official" to make it fit, once I do that a few times any pretext at keeping the game "pure" in this way goes right out the window

Point 2--- One problem we have had in this game was multiple OOB designers using varying naming conventions. We have database checking utilities to help us find things but when one unit or vehicle is named one way in one OOB, another way in a different OOB and yet a third way in a third OOB it makes finding them a PITA . In this case there are variations on M10 17 pdr and "Achilles" and that's just in the commonwealth nations. In the Italian OOB is "Semovente M10" ( there's that "National flavour" some people like and some don't ) and in the US OOB it's M10 (early) and M10 (late). I doubt very much that was the "official" way it was known in the US army at the time but for GAME purposes it helps players spot which was which ( not everyone's a historian ) This has been a problem in SPMBT where occasionally we've had to update some bit of info on some bit of Russian Kit ( for example....) then found someones decided in a couple of OOB's to use the "local" name for it or name it Txx in some and T-xx in others and that's how we end up with the same vehicle with two different stats. We've being struggling to correct all this since the Windows version were released

Point 3-- I will take all of this into consideration and there will be changes made to the next patch and I can promise you that someone is going to be unhappy no matter what I do but from my POV I need all these units with SOMETHING in common in their name so if I need to find all of my "M10's" I don't have to recall all the different nicknames they picked up in the intervening 60 odd years


Don

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

Ouuuuch :ghug:

:yield:

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

Whatever they're called - it's so nice when you immoblise one with a burst of MG34 fire!

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

Are you talking about the M10,or Imp,Cross and cbo?

:)

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

I took a quick look at some other nations in the SP OOB, and I see what you mean:

UK: M10

US: M10 GMC

Canada: M10 3-Inch (30,43)
Canada: M10 17-pdr (44)
Canada: M10, SP 17-pdr (155)

France: M10 Wolverine !!! (82,83)

Don,

I genuninely don't mind what you decide. I naively thought I was making a helpful suggestion, particularly for newcomers.

If you do decide to change anything, you may want to look at the above OOBs if you want to make them consistent.

cheers,
Cross

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

All this was done last week. All M10's and their derivatives in SPWW2 are now named "M10" , (whatever gun they are mounting)

No "wolverine" no "Achilles"

Don