MA Man in latest CBM
 

In CBM 1.6 MA Man was given a long-needed upgrade. Most notably, Wardens and Lord Wardens are recruitable anywhere, which makes decent bless a more reasonable choice, especially considering their mages are sacred too. Also, I noticed that Lord Wardens were given H1, and can now bless Wardens and self-bless (this is strangely not mentioned in CBM 1.6 features in related post). There were other improvements too, of course.

In short, what strategy can be used for the new and better MA Man?

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

That is because it was intended (and advertised) in a previous version, but I had overlooked MA and only changed the LA version at that point.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

Its become another one of those E9N4 bless nations, which is actually quite disappointing and dull. The standard thug bless is optimal for your new army of stealthy thugs. Good luck.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

While I do agree the prevalence of e9n4 blesses is quite annoying, I think a really workable thug army of lord wardens would be quite a feat.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

I wish the Knight of Avalon had been given a hoof attack. As it stands this capital only unit is all but redundent. The Knight has been improved with the general cavalry changes in CBM (all very welcome!) but the KoA just doesn't give a 20 gold boost over the knight. I know it's magic weapon and speed might make it an occasional neiche buy. But for a capital only unit with high resource and gold costs that is not sacred I don't think a hoof attack would be unbalancing. Especially as Man remains - even with your changes - neither one of the stronger, varied or flavoursome powers.

Hopefully you will consider it for 1.7?

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

While the recruit anywhere Wardens and Lord Wardens are a welcome boost for MA Man, I don't think a bless strategy can be based on them. If nothing else than because the moment you have any decent number of Wardens massed, they become a pain to bless with only H1 priests. Main aspect of the Wardens now in CBM 1.6 is that the Lords are recruitable anywhere, as the Lord is a potentially decent thug chassis at a cheap cost (that may be worth a few X4 blesses). But he never got used before due to being cap only. (and so never got recruited ahead of cap mages)

Possibly a bigger boost is the increase to 25% on the second Crone random, as that increases the chance of getting those critical A4's (meaning you won't need an A4 pretender just for Air boosters). Would still like to see it at 50% though :)

And I second Hoplosternum's call on the Knights of Avalon. I brought this point up a few weeks ago on the IRC. The unit as it stands is pretty much pointless, as it will never really be recruited over the regular Knight. But if given a hoof attack, like most (all?) other heavy cavalry in CBM, then they suddenly become useful.

Hard to think these additional changes would overpower MA Man, since even with the recent CBM 1.6 changes, they still find themselves lurking at the bottom-end of the MA food-chain.


Edit: Just noticed the Knights of Avalon now cost 65 instead of 75 in CBM 1.6. So that increases their chances of being recruited. Still think they should have a hoof attack though :)

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

From a question of efficiency, perhaps, but it really hurts Man as a theme. The entire idea of having the Forest of Avalon, the witches of Avalon (who only become strong with the forest), and the wardens of the witches of Avalon (enchanted and possibly descendents of the Tuatha) straps a huge weight to its back and takes a running leap off the cliff labeled "generic nation that we need to boost" once the wardens are made recruitable everywhere rather than bound to the capital.

A.k.a. while I may understand the reasoning behind making them recruitable everywhere due to their performance in MP, I think it is a crying shame that the balance tweaking was done in such a theme destructive manner.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

Yes, it's a shame to go somewhat against the theme of MA Man by lessening the importance of 'Avalon' as a site and idea, but I'm not sure if there was much of a choice for the Wardens. The Lord Warden in particular.

Since there is probably little point having a national commander that would just never be recruited. Be it thematic, themed, part of a nation's soul, or whatever. And as long as the Lord Warden is up against Crones and Daughters of Avalon as a capital only unit, then it will never be seen in a MP game (at least not as part of any real plan or strategy).

The only other approach for the Lord Wardens to have a future is to make them the only capital only commander. Like they are for LA Man. But being able to recruit Daughters and Crones everywhere would probably be an even greater shift against the theme of MA Man, than doing it for the Wardens is. Not to mention boosting the power of MA Man considerably (and probably past an unwanted point).

So I think the change to the Wardens in CBM 1.6 was not only out of a desire to make MA Man more of a viable MP nation, but also to give the Wardens and Lords some genuine hope of being used. Since other attempts to improve MA Man via cheaper units, better mages etc, would have had no effect on the unused Warden problem.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

I look at it this way: Mothers of Avalon are recruitable everywhere, and they are supposed to commonly have warden bodyguards. So, it seems like wardens should be at least as common as the mothers.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

MA Man still sucks anyway:

QM: I think you also forgot to make Marverni sacreds non-cap :)

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

!!!!!

By the way, its true. Since the whole 'witch and her warden' theme was inspired by the Wheel of Time (afaik), wardens should be recruitable wherever Mothers are.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

I would have to disagree with that line of reasoning with respect to recruitment. :D

Having aspiring witches start out outside the Forest of Avalon assigned to the local covens and train as they grow older and wiser, traveling the world as mothers of Avalon until finally they reach an age to receive their ultimate training in Avalon itself as crones of Avalon does not in any way imply that their wardens are trained outside Avalon - from a fantasy story point of view it makes excellent sense for the wardens to be trained in just one place (or two - the Tower of Avalon in the Forest of Avalon) by those who are mighty in the arts and then being assigned to the mothers of Avalon traveling the world.

The latter interpretation also happens to fit the warden flavour text considerably better than one where the mothers' "they are often accompanied by wardens sworn to protect them" is interpreted as meaning "you can recruit armies of wardens all over the world".

Ah, well, for probably well over 9 out of 10 users of the CBM the only important thing is the mechanical performance of a nation so it should not be shocking to me that it primarily caters to its intended audience. :)

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

You mean the same WoT where warders can be anybody to start with but are very carefully trained at exactly one place in the world, the white tower of Tar Valon*, after they are chosen as warders? :D

Well, until Rand bloody Al'thor came around and messed up the political scene, that is.

As for Dominions, the MA warders seem to be a good mix of the Tuatha bloodline story continued from EA mixed up with a bit of generic maiden/mother/crone mythology and a bucketful of Randland warders. The Warden of Dominions is what you get out AFTER he's been through the Tower/Forest of Avalon Warden program.

So nice try but no go unless you rewrite or ignore the Warden and witches flavour text. :)


* showing yet again how the pull of witches = Avalon + general mythology is nearly irresitable to a western fantasy writer as it has very deep roots in our popular cultures. Personally, I blame Sir Thomas Mallory's Le Morte D'Arthur, but realistically Geoffrey of Monmouth is probably the bigger sinner in this regard.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

Except that the Mothers start their training in Avalon as Daughters. Then go out into the land as Mothers. That's all clear from the flavor text of the Mothers and Daughters.
A strict reading would require all three to be capital only.

The warden text actually says nothing about where they are trained. Only that they are the sacred guard of the Witches and that they've been enchanted.

I agree that the best reading is that they are all trained in Avalon, but if you exempt the Mothers, I see no reason not to exempt the Wardens as well.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

If Mothers start their training in Avalon and then travel the world so you can recruit them everywhere, they are accompanied by their Wardens. Who hail from Avalon and have Sidhe blood in them and are trained in one and the only place called whatever it is called, but travel the world with Mothers of Avalon. :)

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

I must I admit it's kind of funny being on the other side of argument, people are constantly trying to convince me to put things in CB I find thematically questionable. It's a major reason most changes are pure price tweaks.

In this case though, for reaspons that have been mentioned, that would not solve the lord warden's problems. Never seeing a unit used I find quite unthematic (and unfun). And that's apart from he fact they never specifically say they are trained in Avalon, and that the Mothers are already everywhere which, really, makes far less sense.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

I like the change. It doesn´t disturb my sense of immersion and seems thematically acceptable.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

Cleveland did well with a E9N?A2 cyclops in a big MP game (sorry, the name escapes me), not even using CBM. A monk or two with a few Wardens can take on the PD of quite a few nations, and it's free in terms of gems.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

Besides, flavor can always be rewritten. Anything can be justified as being thematic. Game mechanics are far more important because MP fails if nations aren't roughly comparable.

In this case, the flavor is even fine as is - its not about where they're trained, its about where they are *available*, and since they seem to roam the world after training, they are available everywhere.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

Needs more bard! :angel

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

The other problem might be that there is too many of them - the Wardens are supposedly the elite few.
But then, players have a habit of recruiting the elites exclusively...

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

The problem is that resources are in general stupidly high so that they're the limiting factor on recruiting heavily armored troops of any quality, even with Productivity 3. At which point, if you're going to be spending all those resources for n+-2 units anyway, you might as well get the best units for those resources. Gold costs do not serve to effectively discriminate in the case of armored troops because gold is a liquid asset while resources are not.

Basically, its a question of massability. If two units are within epsilon of each other in massability, the better unit will always be chosen over the other because it will out perform and is approximately as easy to mass.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

Well, the one thing to fix that is not having "better" but different troops.
Bowmen and Knights (which are Man's army according to the nation description) would both be recruited if you couldn't spend your gold on clearly better sacreds.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

Well, the sacreds are only clearly better if you've sunk the points into a strong bless at pretender creation.
And the blesses suggested for them are not path the nation particularly needs on its pretender.

I haven't spent a lot of time with the new Man, none in MP. My impression was the the change made using a bless strategy possible, but far from the obvious choice. Wardens aren't that good. The stealth is nice, but they're still expensive, hard to mass, slow, unshielded humans.
And taking the obvious EN bless does nothing to address Man's serious magic diversity problem.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

I can certainly imagine the Wardens being a very useful raiding force, just a shame that you'd probably need such an unhelpful bless (magic path diversity wise) to get them going :(

Although now that the Lord Wardens are H1, probably not much point recruiting the Monks unless gold or resource contraints come into play. Since in CBM 1.6, the Lord Warden does everything a Monk does with extras.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

The other aspect is the question of upkeep, as is you can have roughly 2 knights, 5 wardens, or 7 Longbowmen in you army for the same cost. With those numbers I think Wardens are a rather apparent better choice for your standing army.

Anyway, this problem is much deeper ingrained in the system and can't be solved easily.
A starter might be to rebalance the cost of the knights - they are 50% more expensive than Marignon's equivalent, for instance.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

Really? I'm not sure I'd pay nearly double for just being slightly more buff- unless they were for leading raid squads. I wouldn't mind making monks 25 gold though.

I find it hard to believe wardens everywhere instantly obsolete Man's longbows and knights- or even necessarily the other infantry. Look at Bandar Log, white ones are are basically the poor mans (everywhere recruitable) wardens, and they hardly define the nation. Yes, they are quite a bit worse, but they are also much easier to mass and compete against other troops which are generally much less attractive.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

Well to me it depends how you look at it. I'm not crazy about the idea of paying almost double just to have a unit with more buff stats, but at the same time I just don't want to recruit any Monks at all. My current MA Man experiences in Forge of Godhood shows me their only real use is building temples, as it's already well known how pathetic H1 priests are at preaching. Unless you're spamming them in which case I would go for the Monks I guess. Although can't see spamming H1 priests to be that useful, although do admit to never having tried it as far as I can remember.

And although I haven't tested it specifically with the Monks, I have doubts about their ability to safely lead stealth raiders (although as you say you would would use the Lords for raiding). Since from pasts experience I know that a H1 priest leading a handful of troops will run up behind those troops if he has nothing else to do once his hold/bless script runs out. And with no stealthy archers to "stay behind", you'd either have to give the Monk an item to use, or hope the battle is won before he gets to the front. I doubt a Lord would need such provisions.

So while double the price for a Lord Warden is unattractive, I'm not fond of the idea of paying 30gp for a more-or-less useless Monk unit. Even if they are cheap. I'd rather forget the Monk existed and say 50gp for a stealthy priest that can lead a decent sized number of troops (hence limiting the number of Indy commanders you need) and also be thugged depending on bless/equipment, isn't that bad a deal. MA Man are almost always going to be in trouble in MP games, and when trouble comes I'd rather have a bunch of Lords on hand than a bunch of Monks.


If Monks were cheaper or had a higher priest level, or better stealth etc., then I'd re-examine it. But right now I can't imagine me recruiting a Monk over a Lord if I had the money and resources for it that turn.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

Better stealth is also quite possible (though personally I consider that a minor consideration compared to price).

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

I played a cbm 1.6 game with man to see how the wardens would perform with a bless. Personally I think they did great. I think they might have some long term multiplayer potential because their natural resist is so high, but I've never played mp so from a strategy point of view I really don't know how they'd work out.

From a strict mechanics point of view they're butchers. I took W9E4F4D4, the theory being that more attacks hitting more often and distributing afflictions amongst anything tough enough to survive one hit will make 2 reinvig powerful enough for them to go the distance. Not to mention increased defense and faster battlefield movement.

They crushed anything that the computer threw at them. It wasn't even close to a fair fight.

It seems like that bless might be workable in MP. It gets you into 4 more paths, and the nation doesn't really suffer for it.

I think the total set up was dormant frost father, dom 7, T3, P3, C1, G0, L2, D2

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

Hmm, if their armies consist of knights and co still then this is not a big boost probably. I personally like them better as nonbless nation, so that's not a big deal imo. Their real problem still remains lategame. If they got a 100%asn (enables you to get into mr-spells as an alternative to lightning + moonvines) pick on their everywheres instead of an and a3n2 instead of a2n3 on the crones you your god wouldn't have to cover every magic path even those the nation allready has.

Also I don't think making monks cheaper is good. I'd spam them at their vanilla cost. Additional stealth is nice though.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

I would prefer better stealth and the price remain the same, the more stealth they have, the more likely I would recuit them.

I think having wardens recruitable everywhere (to guard the mothers) is perfectly thematic.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

What if:
Wardens and Lords unchanged.

Mothers become cap only
Mothers buffed a little to be thuggable, maybe given a 50% chance of astral with slightly increased hit points and price?

Crones changed to be:
N2A1
+1 @ 100% in nature or air
+2 @ 100% in their current paths
+1 @ 25% in their current paths

Daughters changed to recruit anywhere, given +2 instead of 1n +1 in their current paths

Cheaper knights

These changes would give man strategic flexibility, a sprinkling of water and earth, and make them a true power in air and nature, but the powerhouse mages would be old and not particularly thuggable because of their age and hp

Further, this means wardens, knights and lords are all likely to be used.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

How about borrowing a bit from LA Man and giving MA Man some scholar with a minor access to Astral and Earth? A mediocre researcher with a 25% chance for 1S and another 25% for 1E.
Or perhaps a 'learned monks' theme - give these monks same 25% chance to have 1E or 1S. Its not much, but even S1 is a big boost to a non-astral nation.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

Every little helps :) And if given say 10 stealth, I can see the Monk having a use again (at least from my view). As that would make it more difficult to discover him and any troops he may be leading, and if you are using him for stealthy preaching, you won't have to keep sending him back in when his current 0 stealth makes him get discovered all the time.

Quite like this idea, although maybe the theme purists would take issue (although it could easily fit in with their transition to LA). Maybe 25% ES or 25% E and S is a bit much, but if the Monk had say 10% chance of getting S, then that would see them getting recruited for sure. As landing just one of those S1's would make a world of difference to MA Man.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

What I've long thought about for Man is something that would tie into the Curse that's on LA Man. Some particularly horrible late-game summon that could have unleashed the curse, perhaps.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

I always thought it would be cool if MA Man could summon Oberon's court and the high royalty of the Fey. Their departure could have been the cause of the drain during the LA, as the witches were removed from their main patrons and sources of power.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

Increased stealth is always a consideration of mine. In many cases it will trump gold cost.

Also, Oberon's court sounds like the most interesting way to increase magic diversity in my opinion. I'm all for it.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

Wouldnt that be unfair to their step-brothers, the Thuata, who get their hero-god Lugh as a national hero?
Also, that Oberon dude just begs for Air/Nature paths. Just what Man needs. :)

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

The idea I'd had was undead Formorians. Tied in to Man as the enemies of the Witches former teachers (and rulers?) And already with a Curse of their own.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

I think the simplest way to add some diversity would be giving Astral randoms to Man mages. Nothing really unthematic in it, and it can give Man some edge.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

I like how this thread has progressed from complaining about a slight thematical change, to suggesting a range of comparatively nuclear-option theme alterations. :D

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

Well, the progression is derived from the contribution of many minds. I've personally tried to be consistent. Then again, I haven't really given any suggestions either.

It seems to me that the two most noted issues with Man in Vanilla is that they lack an easy-to-mass powerful recruit and that they lack a great deal of magic diversity. I could care less about powerful thug like recruits to be honest. Such units exist so people can send forth units without any need for strategy or thought. Build dudes, send dudes, build more dudes. Yay, your a winner.

What makes wardens valuable is stealth +0. Done, end of story. Personally, I find making them recruit everywhere, particularly in the late age, makes Man over-the-top hard to kill. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know the value of armored stealth units. I've used Wardens to great effect in games and with zero bless and capitol only.

Magic diversity is the other issue that seems to have arisen. Honestly though, the only reason why this matters is because people are too busy working out a bless for their thugs to afford the diversity on their god. In part, making wardens more available has made Man weaker, not stronger, on the average. New players will pick up Man, have no means of winning the late game because of a distracting unit, and complain.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

"the only reason why this (magic diversity) matters is because people are too busy working out a bless for their thugs to afford the diversity on their god"

Since most didn't bother using the sacreds in vanilla (or past CBM versions), diversity was never a problem before for Man?
You've only got nature and air above 1! The only other paths you even get at 1 are Earth and Water. Everything else has to come off your god. Not just casting and forging, but also any site searching.
You can't even make air boosters with your nationals. Neither of those paths let you expand into other paths with summons.
Your god can't carry the whole nation.

They're not even the best in their age at either of those paths. Which don't even synergize well.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

This statement makes no sense. That players might choose the wrong tool for a job does not make the presence of more tools a weakness.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

Thank you for your appreciation. Given that man represents medieval England, I've always felt that they were rather boring. Although I have no skill with modding I've always figured it would be a nice thematic upper tier nature summon for Man.

Oberion: He would of course be one of the main goals of the summon. He would be an extremely strong, borderline SC chassis. Naturally he would have stealth and glamour(and probably magic being) however he should be a strong mage in nature, earth, with minor Air. His presense of course would give man access to the all important Earth 3

Titania: She would be the second goal of the summon. She would be a slight improvement of the faerie queen chassis given that she is of course the high queen of the faerie. But in addition to her regular paths, she would give man Astral 3, opening them up towards ever so many useful things.

Puck would be the trickster and the court jester. While stronger than the average commander, and possessing stealth and glamour he wouldn't be a terribly good thug. That being said, he would provide a great deal of magic diverisity with Fire 3, strong astral magic, and minor air.

The final component of the court would be shoe horned in mythology wise. I figure 4 summons would work from the round numbers standpoint, and the fact that Man is needing all the help it can get. The summon would be Tam Lim, the Faerie champion and the Queen's favorite. He would be a cross between his name sake and the mid-summer nights dream's Demetrius so he should probably possess the head of an @ss. He would be very much thuggable, and possess the usual fey traits but he would contribute much to magic diversity through his possession of water 3, strong air and minor fire.

I hope these musings are of some interest to people.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

Forgive me. The addition of more tools does indeed make the nation stronger. However, you can't ignore the fact that enticing players toward a dead end isn't somehow counterproductive. I'm mostly worried that people put too much stock into the Hall of Fame and decide that nations need a boost because they aren't winning. The slippery slope of this is that you buff a nation so that new players find it easy to use and experienced players become unstoppable when using them.

Most forget that astral magic can strengthen most of your other paths with ease. One ring of wizardry gets you an earth booster and your second water booster. That same ring gets you to Air 4, which removes that requirement from your god as well. Also, you shouldn't discount the effectiveness of manual site searching, even with only one skill in a path. Blood is handled with scouts. All you need to cover is Fire, Death, and Astral.

Yeah, I'm with you on the synergy though. I mean, Thunder Strike and Soothing Song! Lame! Panic and False Horror combined with stealth units! Suck! They don't even have any solid MR spells like Stream of Life, Sleep, or Confusion. I mean its not like some of the best battlefield buff spells in alteration and enchantment happen to all be nature and air spells. Now if only they could summon a flying ethereal size 6 trampler to deal with lightning resistant troops for one gem a piece, or perhaps a flock of smaller units that all deal armor negating damage.

Lots of times people look at what they don't have more often then they look at what they do have. Sure, I'm all for Man getting a boost to diversity. Still, I'm not so quick to just start throwing astral on a bunch of mages. Particularly astral magic as that might come back to bite you when a real astral nation starts casting mage dual.


Forgive me QM, balancing a nation is harder then I'm sure most understand. Lots of people would just like to see Man suddenly 'fixed' not realizing that even a guru of dominions multi-player can't know the effects of many changes all taken at once.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

You could have saved us a lot of time by saying "None of you are smart enough to use the new options properly and anything that follows this sentence is going to be condescending sarcasm." :angel

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

I was thinking more of cross paths spells and probably should have been more clear. Obviously both Air and Nature have good spells. Soothing Song would synergize with almost anything. Panic & False Horror is a good combination. The others aren't synergy, just a bunch of good spells.

Re: MA Man in latest CBM
 

So even though you have a good selection of spells, its not good enough because you don't have a really cool cross-path spell?