David & Goliath - Running noob game
 

This is the starting point of a newbie game about to start.
All people interested in joining are, of course, welcome.

It's the first time I am doing this and that's the reason why I don't join a game already running. The idea is to start a newbie game with at least a few newbies from scratch. It's a learning process so all goes at a relaxed pace and before we start we should discuss game settings, empire choices, turn time limits, anything really, here first.

Let me open with the question who want to join?

EDIT: It might be worth noting that I haven't created an entry into the sticky game thread above on purpose. I think we should first get our plans straight before we setup a game entry.

EDIT2: With some advise a more concrete concept can be put on paper (updated as we go for easy ref):

-Early Age game
-Worthy Heroes MOD v1.8
-Shahrivar map
-All settings default
-Graphs ON
-Max 12 players ---> ALL SPOTS TAKEN
-Map with 10 - 15 provinces per player (Shahrivar map chosen)
-Experienced players be restricted to less strong nations
-Llamaserver will be used for turn-flow and hosting ----> GAME NAME: DavidandGoliath
--->Also please take a look through the Llama FAQ:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=35160
-The game will have a master password
-Do NOT password protect your pretender to avoid problems when needing to sub a player.
-Turn time limit begins as 24hrs and progresses to accomodate longer turns later on.
-Diplomacy is allowed. Use PM on this forum or e-mail for inter-player contact, so be sure to enable private messaging in your profile! Use this thread for reports every player should or must know (like alliances or treaties).

Players:
1) Ossa - Helheim
2) Klepto - Ermor
3) Yskonyn - Caelum
4) thjeff - Pangaea
5) GrudgeBringer - Arcoscephale
6) Alehkhs - Ulm
7) Agusti - T'ien Ch'i
8) Dark Kitty - Mitclan
9) Xanatos - Niefelheim
10) pyg - Fomoria
11) donPablo - Tir na N'og
12) Stagger Lee - C'tis
<TBA></TBA>

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

While a democratic attitude is a good idea, getting TOO democratic leaves you trying to decide/vote/etc on Era, victory conditions, any nations banned, how many to have in game, map, etc.

Pick an era (EA is a good starting era), set how many you would like to have in (anywhere from 8 to 12 is a good number) and pick a map (you can always change it).

This way you at least have some things to talk about instead of having 12 different opinions.

People have a habit of getting antsy and seem to not want to stay around if there is too much time with details.

REMEMBER, a lot of times first games have a lot of people that start but drop out quick if things go a little wrong, so a BIG game is likely to be more of a pain for you than a smaller game.

Just some hints...GOOD LUCK!!

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

Good luck with the game. A few suggestions though. Like GrudgeBringer said, being too democratic as a game leader is not a very wise choice - Picking era and the player amount, how they pick nations (random or self-pick) and mods to use + diplomacy rules (machiavellian or must-adhere-to-diplomacy) gives a fair guideline to people wanting to join the game.
I'd like to suggest using CBM 1.6 and Streamers&Standards mods for the game. I also prefer to have slightly increased magic sites to give some thought to magic in the early-midgame - though that might still give an upper hand to those with experience in the game should they jump in here.
For player amount, 8-12 is easy enough to handle, but there is only a couple of maps I'm aware of that fit those amounts of people well enough in a somewhat balanced way.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

Great advise, thank you.
That's why experienced player input is appreciated.

You talk about banned nations and such, but newbies don't know anything about overpowered nations in the game. Any suggestions as to which nations you would exclude?

I was thinking about an Early Age start indeed. 8 to 12 players sounds nice. Any suggestions for balanced maps?

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

Well, I don't suggest banning any nations, as it's going to be a newbie game. Just restrict a few nations from experienced players should some decide to join, and restricted nations should probably be Niefelheim and Hinnom. Possibly Mictlan and Sauromatia too. There are a lot of strong nations in EA if you know how to leverage the good parts and fill up the bad parts - but that's what you guys are playing this for, to learn the game :)

Shahrivar is a good map for ~10 players. You could go and browse the map&mod part of the forums for more good ideas, but preferably you'd like a map with around 10-15 provinces per player.

Also, I'd suggest using llamaserver - the UI to use it is easy and fast, and it works very well. I have to admit that I haven't used Gandalfs server, but it's another option, as is hosting the game yourself. The host-it-yourself I don't suggest, since it'll give you lots of work, even if you were eliminated from the game.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

Great, I'll update the first post.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

If i could, i would like to join. I've got a little bit of MP game experience but i'm pretty sure people would definately consider me a newbie still.

I also have an AAR with LA atlantis if you want to see how i can totally get trashed by the AI.

If you have me, i'll play with the nation i have the most experience with, Sauromatia.

I've never played Shahrivar but i know that Cradle of Dominions map is made for that many players (not sure if its the right number of provinces)... its a good map for new players i'm told (partially because it comes with the game and is therefore easily accessible).

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

Hi. I'm not a complete newbie, I've played in around five MP games and done very badly in all of them. If that's not too much experience I'd like to take Ermor please.

I'd be in favour of using the CBM 1.6 mod, turning graphs off and no holds barred diplomacy.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

My totally biased opinion...
I think that a direct-connect game is easier on newbies. You just tell Dom3 the address of the server, and the port. After that it plays pretty much the same as a solo game.

Of course everything has its pros and cons. PBEM has more to get a handle on for some people. Getting the emails with your turns in it, figuring out where the game saved your turns, figuring out out how to setup the game on your end, figuring out how to attach your finished .2h file to an email back to the server. On the other hand, once you get a hang on creating games and deciding the games settings, LLama's server has that nice setup page to whip thru the setup and get a game started in less than a minute.

Both both types (by the way) you have to pre-create your god using the "Game Tools" then "Create a Pretender God" (and I recommend putting a password on it when you create it).

For a fast little direct-connect game up to 4 players I have some pre-created on my server. You could just choose one of the "blitz" games and declare it yours.
http://game.dom3minions.com/bin/blitz_chk.cgi
Or one of the vsAI which adds 4 computer players into the game.
http://game.dom3minions.com/bin/vsAI_chk.cgi

Other than that, if you are considering setting up a larger game then the choices are the same except that LLama's is automatic and on others its by request to the person who sets up games on the server. Everything on LLama's setup page can be part of any game request, and some beyond that (such as boosted AI's and some game settings not included).

Gandalf Parker

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

Thanks for the input. Gandalf I am not sure; did you want in as well?
Klepto and Immaculate; of course, you're welcome. I've added you to the player list in the first post.
There are at least two other newbies I expect to join in, so other than a place for those two, it's free for all. ;)

I have experience with other PBEM games so that won't be a problem.
There's also an old little utility called PBEM Helper, which automates PBEM turns for certain games, but I don't know if D3 is supported. I have to check.

I am all for the more automation the better. I am willing to act as gamehost or 'leader', but I would prefer a certain automation in handling all data.

I am really not sure about playing your first game with any mods, though. If the majority prefers to enable one or the other I'll go along, but shouldn't it be better to go vanilla at first and appreciate the intricacies of the mods later?

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

I don't like the mods but i'll play either with or without the CBM mod depending on what you choose.

I've only played PBEM so far.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

Yeah, sounds like a plan, i'd say we stick with what seems to be standard turn lengths (24 hours initially, then increasing to 48 and up if needed)

I'd also like to put in a bid for us using CBM 1.6

I'm less fussed about other things, oh, but i'd vote against having a wrap around map, those things confuse me.

Oh and put me down for Pangaea... ;)

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

Im a beta tester. My name is in the credits at the end of the game. I dont think I should join. But thanks for asking.

As for mods, Im with you. Everyone who has played the game for a year or more has their own ideas on what they would like to change and its wonderful that the game allows you to change so much. I even have my own preferences (Single Age to put all 3 eras in one game, Compressed Nations to add a bunch more nations above the 63 in the game already, Watchers to allow a single non-player to watch all actions in the game, Worthy Heroes to add more heroes, Mytheology to add more gods, Magic Site to add more magic sites, chaos mod to scramble all of the above). But I would not recommend that new players start there. Its better to feel a need and then fill it. Otherwise you are just going by the opinions of others. IMHO

Gandalf Parker

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

Oh yeah, and that is why I didnt mention the other games on my server as options. Srand, Chaos, and CBM. Because they are more for those who are bored with vanilla.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

OK, it shows I play too much without it , but I DO like to keep up with the Mods.

The last CBM I have is 1.5, Does anyone have a link to CBM 1.6?

Thanks Guys:up:

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

CBM 1.6 here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43949

I may only be a newbie, but even i appreciate that it adds viability to some pretenders that are just rubbish otherwise... and i like not feeling locked in with choosing them

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

Ive been trying to get an answer but so far it seems that CBM 1.5 is the last official release and 1.6 is a beta. I havent been able to get a response from the the author in the CBM thread

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

I'm starting to think i should branch out from my favorite nation. I'm still going to play but am not convinced i'll be playing Sauromatia... i want to try some stuff out in SP but i'll either confirm my choice or post a new one before you're ready to start.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

Put me down for helheim- i want to try this nation out.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

Ok updated.

Here are some questions about the game parameters:
Strenght of Independents - This value only tells you that a higher value makes them stronger. But is there any meaning to the number? Does 5 mean 5 stacks of soldiers for example? Something like that.

Special site freq - Is this value a percentage? If so of what and if not what does it mean then?

Money/Resource/Supply multiple - of what?

Victory conditions - Which are normally used and what is Standard opposed to the others?
The manual and in-game tooltips aren't clear about these.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

Haha, well - I'm totally clueless to all of this.

Looking through the histories, I guess I'll play as the nation of Ulm (Enigma of Steel). What all do I need to do to get ready for a multiplayer game?

Also, it would be better if this began next week (or I suppose if the turns were longer than 24 hours). I have a trip this weekend, and I can't guarantee internet access on Saturday.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

I disagree- start as quickly as possible and we can just pause the game for your trip. thats totally possible and easy to do.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

Independent strength default value is 5. If you put 4 they are slightly weaker and if you put 6, they are slightly stronger. If you want something other then 4,5,or 6, i think you're playing a very different game. i suggest sticking with 5.

Special site frequency is how often you find magic sites. The default value for early age is 45 and its 35 for late age. Probably best to leave it at 45 but i played with 55 in another game and didn't really notice a difference... yet...

Money resource multiples i forget (there's a faq on setting up games on llamaserver and its written in that- i would check it out)

I think standard victory conditions.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

All new players should read the FAQ:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=35160

You should put this link in the first post.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

Money/resources/supplies is 100 default. Just think of that as percentages of normal values.

Standard is the usual victory condition. Which, basically comes down to the players deciding when someone has won. I would recommend going this route for the game, victory points could be a bad idea for a game between fresh new players.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

Ah, well if it's not a problem to pause the game and everyone would prefer that, than that's fine :)

I was just afraid people wouldn't want that interruption.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

Thanks for the input, gents.
Alehkhs, there's no objection to stand down for a few days with the turns once you leave as long as the absense (of any player) is coordinated in a timely fashion, for example, here. ;)

Updated first post.
I'll be off to bed now. (GMT+1) More updates tomorrow. Sleep well!

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

speaking of breaks, i'm afraid i'm going to be without access to my computer from the 1st till about the 9th of december... How do we handle that when it comes up, do i switch to ai for those turns? I'm also gonna miss from the 11th to the 14th...

Ok dokey, thanks

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

Never played MP before, had a couple of spats against the computer. I'd like to give T'ien Ch'i a go.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

pfloom welcome to the fun! I've added you to the playerlist! :)

Bondy, just to get this clear; you will be unavailable from the 1st of december till the 9th. Then you will have the 10th available and then from the 11th till the 14th of dec you're gone again?
So for planning we will consider you gone from the 1st till the 14th.

December will likely be slow anyway with all the holidays coming. Here in Holland we have 'Sinterklaas' (sort of thanksgiving with presents) on the 5th of dec and my birthday is on the 2nd of december, so I will likely not be able to return the turn in 24hrs either during those days. Same goes for X-Mas.

I don't see this as a problem. We could always pause play until everyone is back again during holidays.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

About the mods, if you want to try out the "base" game, I'd suggest still enabling worthy heroes, since some nations don't simply have any meaningful heroes (or any heroes at all) made for them in the vanilla, and the mod fixes that.

Usually when people go (plannedly) missing for longer periods of time, it's customary to find a sub (abbreviation of substitute) player for that time period so others don't need to wait for the one guy. On llamaserver this is easily done by changing the email of the turn reciever to the sub and back to the original when the player comes back. On Gandalf's server I suppose the sub needs to know the password for the nation if there is one, which can mess things up since iirc you can't change the password mid-game. But it still works. I'm sure someone might be willing to help out then, and to lessen the impact for the player who's being substituted, the hosting could be turned to 48 or even 72 hours.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

I would like to join as Mitclan

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

ah, thanks quitti, good to be informed of these things! Should do that then...

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

No problem. Pointing out the obvious thing to others is sometimes useful to those who are not familiar with it :)

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

I would love to join as Nifleheim, I've been around the game for over a year now but only played about 5-6 mp games, and have yet to do well in any of them:)

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

I would like to play if you will have me. I'm not exactly a newb but neither are Klepto, GrudgreBringer, or Immaculate as I've played/playing games with all of them before. I've been in 5 MP games and am still in 2 of them. This game is so big I will still feel newbish for a long while yet. Xanatos is totally not a newb.

I prefer CBM 1.6 and I recommend graphs on for a newbie game.

Seeing as Niefelheim is taken I'd really like to play Hinnom or maybe Fomoria, but I'd settle for Argatha... anybody big/tall/scary.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

I am interested in playing Tir na N'og.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

Ok about the MODs, I really REALLY want to play without any as it is my first game ever and I would rather see the limitations of the base game first, before I venture into 'modland'.
I would ONLY want to enable 'Worthy Heroes' if this ONLY addresses a weakspot in the game to level out all nations concerning heroes and it leaves all other factors alone. Just for the sake of everyone having reasonably similar chances. So, Quitti if this is the case we can enable that mod, but I really want to keep it at that then, any objections?

Others: welcome, I've added you to the list!
Pyg: Please decide upon which nation you would like to play. Three is too much, obviously. ;)

One question remains:
How does one engage in diplomacy in a game? Are there ways in-game to send messages? How does one register treaties/alliances being made? Does this work in the form of e-mails?

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

I know I voted for CBM, but I'm happy to play without. I'm not fussed one way or the other about worthy heroes. Also, I know this isn't my first MP game, but really I am very much at the newb end of the spectrum ;)

Edit...

There is an in-game message system, but it entails a delay of one turn. Generally people use PMs on this forum for diplomacy, and post to the game thread when required (declaring a public treaty for instance).

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

Well, some nations that don't need heroes have them that give them diversity, others who really need them for the diversity then again don't have any. It's not a "must have" mod but I heartily recommend using it. For example, I don't think oceania has any heroes made for them - whereas EA T'ien Ch'i has awesome national hero mages (one of them can be used with little fuzz to cast arcane nexus, and is immortal in addition). Agartha then again has some olms who are basically their easiest way to higher water magic, which isn't a very useful, but is versatility still. They do have national water mages at early age, so they are not lacking in that field either with or without the heroes.

Remember though, the game itself is not 100% (or even 80%) balanced, so other nations simply have better chances of survival against others, heroes or not ;)

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

Ok so this thread can funtion as relay of in-game comms which everyone can or must know. PM's are going to be used for inter nation contacts.
I'll update the first post accordingly.

Does this diplomacy involve roleplaying or is that entirely up to the individual player?
I would suggest we use SOME roleplaying in comms just for the entertainment factor. Nothing really deep, just flavour.

On the issue of graphs enabled or disabled. If we have them enabled it might cause players not getting off the ground as well as their rivals to bail out early. If we disable them, however, the newbies (like myself) might have problems keeping tabs on things and to make priorities.
Still I think it might be best to have them enabled to aid us newbies.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

I love role playing diplomacy, one of the best parts of the game IMO :D

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

I suggest we start now - 11 players is enough and i am impatient. Set up the game and invite us to upload pretenders.

I.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

The game will be setup tomorrow. I am going to sleep now cause I have to get up early.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

I meant that to be an ordered list. Hinnom is my first choice.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

yeah no mods except worthy heroes is okay, better go download it though... ;)

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

say which version of worthy heroes is the latest one? is it 1.8? its included in CBM i'm told so i've just been using that one...

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

-Scratch That-

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

For diplomatic purposes, you guys feel free to PM me (nifleheim) here, and i usually respond fairly soon, I can also give you my email or AIM address via PM if you wish. I think their listed in my profile page.

I mean..

Arg, We Giants Crush you lesser races....weak mortals have grown too troublesome.

Re: First Newbie game, let's discuss how we proceed here
 

My first post, no mp experience, 2 sp games not finished, had the game less than a month. Would like the last spot if still available. Have an idea for C'tis (probably a bad one, but what's a noob without bad ideas?):o