OOB 16 error report
 

Unit n. 199 PzKw Panther F
Hull front armor should be increased from 13 to 14.

The standard value for the Panther front hull armor is 14 and all the sources I have seen so far which deal with the Panther F
such as this do not mention any weakening of the hull front armor, and decreasing the armor there would not have made much sense anyway.
Also RF value might be increased to 8 or such, as the vehicle is fitted with a proper rangefinder.

Re: OOB 16 error report
 

Seeing as there were only a handful of complete hulls and only prototype turrets completed I don't think saying "the vehicle is fitted" is accurate but I'll give you that the hull armour is most likely wrong in the OOB and I have corrected that but I'm also pushing it's start date and the Maus to June to ensure it says a "what if" .

Don

Re: OOB 16 error report
 

I used "is fitted" as a shorthand for "it would have been fitted, had it actually been built to the planned specifications".
The "what if" nature of the vehicle was taken for granted by me, though one could argue it was pretty close to serial production, unlike Maus or a lot of other paper wunderwaffen.

Re: OOB 16 error report
 

I see your point about the Maus, but IIRC they actually managed to drive one off the Kummersdorf training facility in late April 1945 with the intention to fight the Russians. It broke down and was blown up, but came close to participating in the war. :)

cbo

Re: OOB 16 error report
 

Exactly, they drove ONE, that's why it's a what-if

Re: OOB 16 error report
 

If it did indeed head for the front late April I'll concede that the earlier date that was in the OOB was "accurate" but I think in this case the "test" needs to be... did it actually participate in battle? . I don't want them available to a player during any date when the war was actually being fought so somebody gets a Maus or an Panther F to fight the last battle of their campaign in Berlin. We already allow a HUGELY generous "what if" time span with the German OOB as it is. Fuel supplies aside, the war in Europe WOULD have been over in August no matter what.

Don

Re: OOB 16 error report
 

IOW, why the Maus and the E-100 programs were cancelled, in a nutshell.

Re: OOB 16 error report
 

Another small issue I just noticed.

Unit n. 151 15cm Batterie has a ROF value of 4
Unit n. 735 15cm Howitzer has a ROF value of 5

Both use the same weapon n.79 15cm sFH 18

Cautiosly I would suggest Unit n. 151 ROF to be raised to 5.

Artillery weapon in the 150mm range get 4 or 5 ROF in the game.
Guns using metallic cartridges and sliding breechblocks typically and reasonably get 5, while interrupted screw bagged charges types get 4, again rather reasonably.
The 15cm sFH 18 falls in the "metallic cartridges and sliding breechblocks" camp; to be sure ROF is listed as 4 RPM in the sources and german WW2 field artillery designs were rather unremarkable but still 5 seems more consistent.

Well this is turning into quite a project....

Given how the German OOB is scrutinized by nearly everyone it's always interesting when something like this is discovered so I checked back to the earliest OOB I have on the computer ATM ( DOS ver 5 ) and that gave unit 151 4 ROF as well ( there were no units > 599 in Dos v5 so I couldn't check U 735 )

I checked Dos V7 and unit 151 was 4 and 735 was 5 but in Dos ver 7.01 it's 5 and 5. However in win ver 2 it's back to 4 and 5 again.

There were some odd bits of data that changed back and forth between the last Dos Version and the first Win version and a couple years back we decided the only explanation was we used a copy of the V7 OOB's as the start point for Win Ver 1 on at least some of the OOB's and that's further backed up by this latest discovery of the ROF going from 4 to 5 then back to 4.

I checked all the 150 mm type guns/ howitzers with our development database checker and 5 is the standard except in a couple of cases. Unit 151 is now 5 ROF and I'm looking into unit 330 as well but as I recal that's an old French piece ( which means the PIC's wrong ). I'm checking Hoggs book on German arty now.......... yep that the old french 155 gpf. Pic now fixed 4 ROF is correct

New problem discovered... China has the 15cm sFH 18 2 years before the German army gets it :doh: I doubt they ever saw it but I'll look into that now as well

This is now I spend my day sometimes, chasing one error that reveals another error that opens pandoras box of errors. None are showstoppers but they all need to be hunted down




Don

Re: OOB 16 error report
 

Nat China apparently did get a few (along with the Pz1, Sd221 etc), so these would have arrived sometime between 1927-38, when the German mission to China ended.

My best guess - use the same ISD as the German-supplied Pz1, ie 6/36 to 12/37 (when the armoured battalions were wiped at the battle of Nanking).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Develop...281927-1945%29
Assume that they had all the new German kit concentrated in these formations?.

Wiki gives an ISD of 1934 for the SfH18 in Germany, the OOB currently has 1936. Probably more believable than the nat Chinese having them first, unless export orders were expedited over home?. I would say, move the ISD in Germany back to 34, not as if it would impact anything "historical".


Andy

Re: OOB 16 error report
 

I have done some superficial diggings. China purchased non trivial amounts of german weapons in the 30's and if the sources are correct this did indeed include a supply of Krupp 15cm howitzers of a supposedly "L32" model around the date specified in the chinese OOB.

Re: OOB 16 error report
 

Thanks for opening THIS little can-o-worms Marcello ! :D

I can see this turning in my project du jour

While trying to figure out just what 150 mm artillery piece the Chinese could have had in the mid 30's I came across an article that mentioned the range of the German sFH 18 was less than the Russian 122 so I checked and yes indeed the 122 out ranges the German gun in the OOB's but only by a margin of 210 - 209. The article in question said it was closer to nearly 7 km

I pulled out Hoggs book and the range we have is the max range of the sFH 18 using a rocket assisted shell ( 19,000 metres )or 209 in the OOB ) the rocket assisted shell was not a standard item and could only be fired by guns fitted with muzzle breaks

The maximum range a sFH 18 could fire was charge 8 giving it a range of 13,250 m. That's 203 in game terms which fits the comment of the first article regarding it's disadvantage at counterbattery against the Russian 122.

Don

If these are internet sources give me the links. They may indeed have had s FH 18's but the only way they would have them 2 years before the German army would be if they were field testing them in China

I'm working on this link now
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=105386

Don

Re: OOB 16 error report
 

It *may* be it's supposed to be a '15cm Howitzer Type 19 '

quote
The Type 12, 14 and 19 were made prior to the Sino Japanese war by the Taiyuan Arsenal with the help of German engineers"

still digging...

Re: OOB 16 error report
 

One possibility is that it may have been one of the sFH 18 immediate predecessors as the sFH 18 seems to have been created by mating two competing designs from Krupp and Rheinmetall.
It is perhaps possible that these howitzers were produced for export purposes on a limited basis.

Re: OOB 16 error report
 

It could be that but I havn't found anything in Hoggs book ( yet ) like that. It could be the FH 13 sold as surplus or it could be the chinese Type 19. I'm tracking down the type 19 now

Don

Re: OOB 16 error report
 

For what is worth here it gives:

Re: OOB 16 error report
 

I'm just loading that now and will have a look. The Chinese may end up with 2 155 mm guns before this is done

Did find some more info on the sFH, again, from Hoggs book.

Given that the max range is only used in counter battery fire in the game I think it's reasonable that this would be a case authorized for the use of the higher charges but that still leaves the max range for that piece to be 13,250 metres or 203 in game terms. Once I track down exactly when the rocket assisted shells were issued I will build a version that allows that shell to be fired but that will only exist from mid war on

I'm sure glad you mentioned that ROF issue...:D

Don