calling new modders
 

IF you were to build a nation using only units and magic sites that are already in the game, what would it be?

This is mostly few modders or want-to-be modders. (mostly because its likely to tick off the old modders). This is yet another partially finished project which overlaps a present project of mine. I want to test more of a feel for what the AI does and doesnt do well.

What I mean to do is modify the More Nations mod
http://www.dom3minions.com/mods.htm
to try various built-nations and see how they do against the nations already in the game when the AI is running both. Id like to try nations built to force the AI to use specific strategies.

So Im thinking..
If you built a nation of mostly mages what would it be? Using Edi's database, or the Units list on the wiki, or Ballbarians icon views, or an All-Units game you can look thru the games units. Maybe try to fill in the needs with a scouting mage, a leader mage, a priest mage.

Or a Thug Nation? Can you create a nation with a scout thug, leader thug, mage thug, priest thug?

How about a stealth nation? An armored nation? A seduction nation? A turtle nation?

Even better (make it keepable after the test) is if you can use units that are generic or not in one of the games nations (such as, avoiding Abysias or Pangaeas units)

Also consider the nations magic sites (particularly if they grant units which would make them capital only units).

Re: calling new modders
 

A mage nation of city states, based on the metal orders, would be fairly easy.

Or one based on breeding for magical talent - where magicians ruled and enchantresses etc were the consorts.

All the untalented were the troops...

Re: calling new modders
 

Here is an example from the More Nations mod
#selectnation 80
#era 1
#name "Utherz"
#color .8 .35 .61
#startcom 34 - basic commander
#startunittype1 17 - basic archer
#startunittype2 28 - light infantry
#startunitnbrs1 20 - heavy cavalry
#startunitnbrs2 20 - heavy cavalry
#startscout 426 - basic scout
#addrecunit 28 - light infantry
#addrecunit 38 - heavy infantry
#addrecunit 20 - heavy cavalry
#addrecunit 17 - basic archer
#addrecunit 217 - flagellant
#addreccom 426 - basic scout
#addreccom 34 - basic commander
#addreccom 240 - basic priest
#addreccom 105 - druid
#defcom1 34 - basic commander
#defcom2 105 - druid
#defunit1 17 - basic archer
#defunit2 28 - light infantry
#defunit1b 38 - heavy infantry
#defunit2b 20 - heavy cavalry
#defmult1 20 - heavy cavalry
#hero1 559 - Sleeper
#hero2 378 - Hero
#hero3 381 - heroine
#hero4 1111 - Arch Bishop of the Sacred Shroud
#hero5 1073 - Maker of the Maze
#hero6 190 - Mound King
#multihero1 428
#multihero2 391
#startsite "Assassins Guild"
#startsite "Forest of a Thousand Streams" w1d1 & 363 Enchantress
#startsite "Ebony Tower" s1d3 & 339 sorcerer
#startsite "Castle Arcanum" f1e1 & 312 wizard 875 warrior mage
#end
---
all mages can only be recruited at the main castle
only the Druid can be recruited from secondary castles
-------
assassins can only be recruited from capital (thats good)

Re: calling new modders
 

Yes but to FORCE the AI to use Mages instead of troops would require not giving a "bunch of troops" option in the nation. Maybe just those units that go away after one fight? Or having only mages be available to secondary castles with troops only available at the capital.

Re: calling new modders
 

This is what I am thinking of as a sort of mage-focused nation with no certain magic but ridiculous research power. Clearly not done, but I am wondering about initial reaction. The idea is to not give any good troops, only horrible meatshields(that can be buffed), a couple elite units, a viable unit to command, and high research mages that you can recruit everywhere.

Strange House in the Mist (can enter to summon horrors)
Slave Fields (Can recruit Thrall here)


190-Gray Knight
191-Gray Lord
1022-Thrall
92-Sage
479-Lore Master

Re: calling new modders
 

I do like it.

I especially like the thrall site. If you leave thrall off the recruitment list then it limits the thralls only to the capital. So it will only help for early expansion.

Re: calling new modders
 

A Mount Olympus mod using the pretender titans and the cyclops would be pretty cool for a thug nation.

Re: calling new modders
 

Quite a while ago I made a little mod of randomly created nations using just independent units in order to make weaker nations to play against the AI. The nations themselves are not all playable due to the random combinations. Also they only have 2-3 different magic paths and severe capital only restrictions. In the end it's not nearly as fun as playing the real nations but a lot harder, and I learned quite a bit in the struggle. I never posted it before because I doubted (and still do) that there would be any interest. Anyway, it sounds sort of like what Gandalf is talking about so here it is. It's called the Lost Tribes and the backstory is these groups of independents have allied themselves against these invading 'Pretenders'. It's done with DMG.

Re: calling new modders
 

Thanks Pyg
I will take a look at it. Maybe if I run a few games with --comptrn I can see what ones do well and figure out why they are doing well.

I do have a program that randomizes AI's that way. I can run it to get completely new AIs with totally random units and sites. I thought about adding it to the "Chaos Games" on my server along with another script for more randomization in the way it generates maps. Just for the SURPRISE! effect.

Re: calling new modders
 

Curious, why are assassins being cap-only a good thing? That just means they *never* get hired (because cap-only mages are *always* a better buy).

As someone who wants most units in a nation to see play, i find the idea of more than 1-2 cap only commanders (of about equal quality) and/or more than 1 cap-only troop type to be abhorrent. It just means the player will choose the best of them (and there is almost always a clear best or at worst a 'tie' for best) and the others will never see play.

Even worse for cap-only non-mage commanders, as a mage is generally a better buy anyway, even without a cap-only mage it'll often only rarely see play because its just not worth the opportunity cost since you have all the infrastructure to build mages in your capital.

EA Ermor is a case in point. Sure, your H3 (and an H2...) are cap-only, while your mages aren't. But you'll hire maybe 2-3 H3s over the course of the game unless you're really pushing a sacred strat (and even then, you can get H1 mages, which is sufficient for most purposes...), and you'll never touch the H2 guy. And that's an H3 *priest*. Cap-only assassin? Be a miracle if it ever sees play, even with no other cap-only commanders.

I don't care how thematic a particular restriction seems. A units theme is irrelevant, and not effectively part of the nation's theme, if the unit never sees play.

--------------
Any nation using non-national troops is probably going to be underpowered because, overall, existing national troops are better than indies. (Some exceptions exist, but those nations are generally perceived as weak for whatever reason, or those troops rarely if ever see play).

Now, an interesting and honestly pretty easy way to build a new nation might be as follows.

1 - no troop choices at all
2 - Only mage commanders
3 - large gem income
4 - some Conj 0 national spells (you can steal from existing national spells if you want, or worst case scenario make copies of some spells with the only change being they're Conj 0 - both options avoid making new units)

Now, starting troops might be interesting, although giving them a handful of what would otherwise be summoned troops from Conj 0 could work.

The idea is a nation that runs armies of summons. Unlike LA Ermor, there's no free troops, so not overpowered, and you still want gold to hire your mages, so you can't totally trash your scales.

Example: Azgeth, City of Death

As the Ermorian bureaucracy collapsed it became increasingly easy for cities to strike out for independence. Azgeth, far from the center of the empire at Eldredgate, came under the control of a powerful cabal of necromancers and conjurers. The common people became slaves toiling for the benefit of their masters, and the army disbanded. In its stead, undead and demons filled the ranks of the army. To maintain its independence, Azgeth formed ties with the Onyx Amazon tribes nearby, who shared a similar appreciation of death magic, and through their rituals managed to make liaison with the hidden kingdom of Elludia.

Every child is tested before the age of five for signs of intelligence and magical aptitude. Those that are deemed worthy are remanded to the various places of magical learning to hone their craft at the feet of the masters.

Commanders:
#629 Stalker - assassin
#356 Onyx Priestess - H2 + 10%D + 10%E
#94 Conjurer - D1B1
#355 Onyx Sorceress - E1D1 +10%D
#310 Necromancer - D2
#95 Circle Master* - D2B2
#630 Elludian Moon Mage* - S2D1 +100% ESDB

Commanders marked with a * are capital only.

Heroes:
Multihero: demilich (as enchant spell Lichcraft)
Graxx, C'tissian Exile - copy of #161 Sauromancer
Ildach, Fallen Oracle - copy of #1581 Risen Oracle pretender, possibly with extra paths beyond base (might be too much work for these purposes)
The Undying King - Copy of #872 Ghost King with E3D3

Sites
The Crypt Underneath: 3d, Conj 20%
Temple of Darkness: 1d, summon: Shadow, Shade
Black Tower: 3d, Circle Master
Elludian Academy: 2s2d, Elludian Moon Mage (new site, 'Hidden Kingdom of Elludia didn't seem thematically appropriate, otherwise it would work. It also gives 3s1d instead of 2s2d, but that might be acceptable)

Total: 8d2s, 2 cap-only mages, Conj 20% site

(replace Crypt Underneath with Well of Darkness if you think the Conj site is overpowered, but I'm trying to throw them something because their top mages are clearly inferior to existing top-tier national mages, and their hire anywhere are generally inferior to other nations - basically, they could use the help).

National Spells:
Recommend Spirit Mastery and Reanimation be copied and those copies made nationals at Conj 0 and Ench 0 respectively. Possibly also Summon Shades.

Notes:
-The national priest(ess) should be able to reanimate, if at all possible.
-Pretender list (short, probably include more): PoD, Moloch, Lord of the Gates, Lich, Lich (female), Master Lich, Dracolich, Lord of Rebirth, Lord of the Night, Oracle, Fountain of Blood, Ghost King, Freak Lord, Arch Mage, Crone, Frost Father, Great Sage, Master Druid, Great Enchantress, Master Alchemist, Vampire Queen,

-------
A nature oriented nation also immediately suggests itself (Enchanters and Enchantresses, Bloodvine Druids, etc... with things like Sloth of Bears and Pack of Wolves as nationals).

Re: calling new modders
 

Looks like a funny nation. I'd recommend EA T'ien Ch'i call ancestors and Wrath of the Ancestors spells too, as battlefield spells. Keep them at the same research levels as for TC, as they are far from powerful, but they can make death 1 mages more interesting on the battlefield.

Re: calling new modders
 

@Squirrelloid
Your notes are interesting. But you might have missed the place where I said this was concerning finding out what the AI uses and how it uses it in order to make more interesting AIs. We already know that what a player would do is not what the AI does. Mostly Im just looking for bulk-AIs at this point for variety. Maybe moving toward a SemiRand extension. But the lessons learned might also lead to someone building a serious AI-opponent modded nation which I would be willing to create a large game on my server for. We already have some general rules such as how the AI needs supplies, and which pretenders to allow it. Now Im trying to get some idea on how it uses its units.

Assassins as a site-provided capital-only unit has proven to be good. The AI does use them. After some play with the junk nation such as I listed Im fairly happy. The AI tends to use independents out toward the edges of its domain. And then as I get closer to its capital I find more serious armies, and more use of assassins and mages. It makes for interesting RPG play. It doesnt have to be a winning nation. Just an interesting one (and not kill itself off before I reach it) :)

The one I posted is a good model for junk-bulk filling in a really large map and game. But I started to wonder why it continually ranked lower than all of the built-in nations. Does the game have more lines specific to nations than I thought it did (IF Pangaea do this, if Mictlan do this) or is it general AI actions I need to pin down? Now that we all can use --comptrn to see what the AIs are doing we should be able to get an idea of how it decides to build its armies.

I did some testing of things such as varying the order that units appear in the recruit screen (mages first, or mounted commanders listed before walking ones) which didnt seem to affect much. I also tried things like listing heavy cavalry multiple times in case some random selection was involved but that didnt seem to help much either. So now it seems that we must only work on what units are being offered.

Thanks for the very complete Mage Nation design with unit ID numbers. I will try it out. And a lesser version of it would be a nasty province to stumble into and could be added to the SemiRand program now.

Re: calling new modders
 

Wouldn't you want the AI to play more like players? Hmm... disabling all non-mage commander options - now that might be interesting...

Re: calling new modders
 

Yes I would want it to play more like human players. But things like "that unit doesnt make sense compared to the other unit" wont make it happen. The AI is pretty set in its ways. Logic doesnt seem to work.

So I guess our best bet is some experimentation to try and find out how we can aid it by giving it or not giving it certain units. Or at LEAST come up with some nation-builds that force it to play differently for variety sake even if we dont improve its abilities.

All mages with no recruitable units DOES make a nice change. So far its armies stay low, its provinces arent the lowest on the scoreboard altho not high, and its research it topping the charts. It does seem able to hold out. It will be interesting to see what it does with that summoning bonus later in the game. Maybe armies but it might end up forging lots of equipment and decking out thugs.

Re: calling new modders
 

Meh, as EA Aby I recruit a demonbred every once in a while for assasination, scouting, when money's tight.

Re: calling new modders
 

For those who would like to download the Many Nations mod and try out their own ideas before posting them, here is one of the things Im doing.

Im playing on a 1500 province map. Im playing Era 1 games and putting in all nations including all of the extra nations.

Im using two different icons to run Dom3. One uses these switches:
"G:\Program Files\dominions3\dom3.exe" -wacd --comptrn --superhost --scoredump

That will host the game over and over and over without stopping to ask you anything. Every once in a awhile I look at the scores.html file in the games directory to see what turn its up to and how the various nations are doing against each other. When I get curious I stop that one, and then use the other dom3 icon without the --superhost switch so I can open the game in player view. This lets me open and look at ANY of the turn files and see what they are doing. It allows me to see what the AI is doing. What its building, what its researching, how its using its armies, etc.

I usually play Niefelheim because it holds out best with very little action on my part.

Re: calling new modders
 

While it may not be what Gandalf whas looking for, Squirreloid's concept seemed interesting, so I went ahead and rolled it into a mod. CAVEAT: I haven't tested this AT ALL and I haven't plugged it into the game (did this while waiting on a batch process to run while at work) but I don't see any syntax errors after a quick read-through in a less bleary eyed state...if anyone wants to pick it up and run with it, feel free.

Re: calling new modders
 

I've found that a fun way to play Dominions for a change of pace is to create a nation with 1 recruitable which is the sage unit (Next time I am going to make the only recruitable a philosopher). Using map commands, I place a party of adventurers on the map in a desolate 0 pop province. Then I set the nation starting province somewhere else and make it detached from any other province. I give that province an awesome immobile patrolling unit that also acts as a dominion spreader.

Then I play the game as my party of adventurers trying to decide the outcomes of the AI wars, gaining experience, trying to make it into the hall of fame etc. As I raid provinces, that gives me the only gold income I have. That gold is spent on recruiting independents (prefer stealth because my party is all stealth) which I employee in my raids and quests. Also some of my gold gets spent on my research units back at home to give me new spells or chances to plop down a lab long enough to forge an item or summon a monster. My PD is abysmal and I could never hold a province even with it jacked up to 150.

One of the cool things I have learned from doing this is that my home detached province never gets random events, no matter my scales. That tidbit may be handy for future modding.

I need to reinstall RanDom and generate some cool provinces for better adventures :).

Re: calling new modders
 

Stavis: your Azgeth mod caused the game to crash due to 'bad start site #'

I tried running it with CBM, which may have been the problem, but I didn't think CBM changed many site #s...

Can you refer to sites by name, or does it require site# input? I can go look those up...

Re: calling new modders
 

It's using site 800 for the "Elludian Academy", which it then refers to by name (as required) in the #startsite command.

I can't troubleshoot this right now, but if I get a chance I'll see if I can figure out what's going on; in the meantime, you might look for any #newsite 800 lines in other mods you've got enabled?

Re: calling new modders
 

Just CBM 1.6... Well, I can look...

Don't see any #newsites in CBM.

Re: calling new modders
 

Ok, so, I briefly plugged in the mod last night (and noticed I forgot to add a #descr for the nation) but (with all other mods disabled) it did not throw any bad start site errors. I did notice there was an extra "Azgeth" folder in the zip - just make sure the .dm is in the mods folder, and the "Azgeth" folder containing the 2 images is also in the mods folder.

I didn't have time to try it with CBM also enabled, so I can only assume there is a conflict, though I tried to choose numbers that didn't match the ranges that CBM uses.

In any case, for me at least, you get the expected recruitable roster, sites (including the new one), and starting troops.

If I get a chance, I'll see if I can determine what the conflict is, but I can't promise anything soon as I'm quite busy with "real life" :sick: at the moment.

Re: calling new modders
 

Ok, so it's a conflict with CBM 1.6 I had looked in Gregstrom's cross reference, and I guess it hasn't been updated since CBM 1.5 (or I haven't re-downloaded, or I'm just blind, always possible :) )

Anyway, the conflict is because of this in CBM 1.6:

--Man ME

#newsite 800
#name "Forest of Avalon "
#homemon 64
#gems 6 3
#path 6
#end

#selectnation 30
#addreccom 212
#addrecunit 65
#clearsites
#startsite "Forest of Avalon "
#startsite "Tower of Avalon"
#end

I've updated the Azgeth mod code to use a different site (801), and also updated the unit numbers (now using 3000-3009), since that range overlaps this mod too. I also fixed an issue with the pretender based heroes showing up in the pretender list.

I *think* it's all working now, but I haven't really put it through its paces, and probably won't soon.

Re: calling new modders
 

I've never seen an AI created thug that worked (as in, did more than kill a handful of troops then die horribly and give you the items). Has anyone?

Re: calling new modders
 

If it concentrates on thug tactics it still might be an irritant. Besides it rarely gives equipment that is anything to drool over.

I was thinking of maybe giving it trolls and cavemen. And any type of thuggy commander with low leadership so it ends up with lots of commanders that have lots of slots free in case that makes a difference in its "thinking". I seem to be seeing it that way with the mage-only junk nation but since it seems to assign equipment differently for mages Id still like to see late-game for a thug-only nation.

I think there are already some thug-type nations modded. I could just test those in some automatic games against the built-in nations on AI to see if they do better or worse. But I figure Id try some "pure" junk nations first with nothing but (in this case thugs) to see how it goes. I was going to test some of the modded nations we have later on when I have an idea of what is desirable.

Re: calling new modders
 

The best way I have found to make AI thugs is to modify their stats as if they were equipped with the desired gear, then if desired you can set them to 0 item slots.

For instance, instead of using map commanders to give the thug "Full Steel Plate"

Use a mod command to give the modified thug #armor "Full Steel Plate".

Then set the item slots to 0 and if desired give them #onebattlespell (Whatever) + things like fireshield etc. to simulate effects from the items.

Re: calling new modders
 

Oh I definitely agree - you could give the AI some pretty nasty thugs that they'd use, via mod commands.

I don't think they'd be interesting to play against, but it would be easy to do. I mean we'd be talking a fireshielded guy with a frost brand weapon, awesome armour, awesome shield, the entangle effect, superb mr and most important, big built in reinvig. Then you just have them as a summon or a commander recruit for the AI and have them onebattlespell berserk to make sure they actually do something as opposed to hiding behind troops or spamming vine arrow or something.

Re: calling new modders
 

Yup. I think in order to make them challenging at all you would need to ensure the AI has and can replenish them from the get go, and make a variety of them so there is some surprise concerning what you will be facing.