Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

I am relatively new and haven't played many nations that benefit from extreme blesses (I've been too enamored of good scales and huge armies).

But now I've been looking at Niefelheim, and a pretender design strategy occurred to me. It's about 180 degrees different from what I usually do, so I find it intriguing. Can anyone tell me if it's (a) been done to death already, (b) completely stupid, or (c) possibly a good idea?

Here goes: Imprisoned 9W9F5S Oracle (I believe it requires 1 bad scale to make it work).

With this, you can't pump the dominion high and have luck/growth/productivity, but you get a powerful dual-bless and
late-game astral boost including ring-forging.

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

That will give you a vastly destructive force of giants - for a few turns each battle.

Your first problem: You only get one giant per square and giants are very expensive, so your army is small and doesn't hit many opponents. Each turn, with two attacks, each giant will probably kill 2 opponents, but take 8 fatigue. Step forward 13 turns, and your giants collapse unconscious from exhaustion. So you can only kill (giants x 2 x 13) enemies before you slow down a lot. It's very easy, particularly against undead or spells like swarm, to meet that many enemies, and your cold aura isn't going to help you that much.

Here you meet your second problem. Giants have a ton of HP, but they will steadily take damage, and they'll take a lot more when exhausted. Thus your 70-HP giants are actually starting to look very vulnerable and very easily to kill after a few rounds of combat. If your opponent has spells like Stellar Cascades and ohters that cause fatigue damage, it's going to be even worse. Although without regeneration from a nature bless, they merely need to throw enough of any damage spell and your giants will die eventually.

If you are going to bless giants like that, the optimum is always going to be taking high Earth and Nature blesses. Earth prevents them tiring out, nature allows them to take vast amounts of punishment. E9N4+ is what you want to look at.

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

In general I think of Niefelheim as one of the best defensive nations in the game. If you are playing it for your love of "huge armies" you will find it pretty rough. But their PD is great and they "turtle" well (mostly stay at home building up slowly). They can be a good choice on small maps with many players where they dont have to go far in order to do battle.

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

Thanks. I hadn't considered fatigue so much. I guess the W9F9 bless, sexy as it is, is better for nations with larger numbers of sacred units. Two followups:

1) With nature mages casting spells/forging items that grant fatigue lifting/regeneration, does this strategy improve, at least for Niefel Jarls?
2) Would an E9Nx oracle make sense (i.e, is the other part of the strategy bad as well)?

Thanks for the advice. I am looking at this for a way to break away from my love of huge armies and do something completely different (small numbers of elite units). Of course, Niefelheim has 'huge' armies in a completely different sense...

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

Actually, Niefelheims PD is under mediocre at best in my opinion - jotun militia are pretty much useless, and while the jarl at PD20 is a very good thug even unequipped if blessed, it won't make much difference when he routs the moment the militia that amount of PD gives you dies.

Also their mages are expensive per research point in the magic-filled early era, so they'll either need some very lucky independent mage finds or simply HUGE amounts of gold. The good thing is that the skratti are awesome combat mages, singlehandedly they can even dispatch sc's solo when you hit high blood magic, and they can be turned into very efficient killing machines with proper equipment in werewolf form.

I agree with Agema, e9n4 or e9n6 bless is the optimal for the giants - possibly if you really want, add in some astral for late game astral power and some added magic resistance (the thing the giants really like is more MR when paralyze/soul slay starts to be the norm in the battlefield). Your Niefel Jarls and Niefel giants really benefit from the reinvig4 and prot4 from earth and the regen keeps them standing when the few odd hits get in or they spontaneously combust or whatever they like to take damage from.

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

Niefel Jarls absolutely want the earth bless for +4 reinvig, it means you can possibly do away with needing +reinvig items (or alternatively use +reinvig items and cast Quicken Self). It also makes them much more active if you employ them as combat mages rather than thugs/SCs.

Regeneration is also brilliant. If you take damage, it makes you less likely to take an affliction. Further, if you use them as SCs they inevitably pick up a few cuts and bruises whilst single-handedly wading through the enemy. Just a small bit of regeneration stops lots of cuts and bruises adding up to death.

Finally, there's an item called Shroud of the Battle Saint. Put it on your Skratti with an E9N4-6 bless and change shape the Skratti into a Werewolf on the strategy map (don't use the battlefield command!) - you've now got another source of extremely lethal SCs. Yum.

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

On the other hand, Niefelheim has super awesome skinshifters. You can try playing them without a bless and use skratti werewolves for sc duty.

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

And what armor do you want to put on them? Well if you have 9E6N or 9E8N robe of the battle saint is the most efficient.

9E6N or 9E8N works great on their Jarls, it works great on their troops, it works great on the werewolves when they wear RBS.

The only thing you may want is a little astral for the MR. But it is of lesser importance than the earth and nature.

It is sad about the skinshifters, they should be moved to MA.

EDIT: Agema beat me to it, doh! Should not have skipped to the end of the thread!

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

Sure a strong bless is a well working strategy with niefel, I just don't think it is the only good one. The skinshifters are actually better for the cost even with a bless I think.

And the werewolves can be amazing sc without a bless. Flesh eater, blood thorn, luck pendant and some armour.

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

Yeah, E9Nx is a waste of time on Niefl. They don't *need* it - the Jarls are perfectly good SCs without it, and the giants are a waste of money. And all those pretender design points you were going to spend on a bless (because lets face it, E9Nx is expensive for Niefl) can be rolled over into scales or a pretender who actually does something useful.

Also, you'll want to use your pearls on something other than shrouds. The era of clamming like mad in the endgame is over (at least in virtually any MP game organized via these forums). You don't have arbitrarily many pearls, its time to start rejecting strategies that overuse valuable and quite limited resources. You're going to want caps and coins and AMAs and pendants. Your pearls are already overworked. Where are these shrouds coming from exactly?

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

Is an Imprisoned Oracle a good way to get an E/N dual bless? Or does Niefelheim need an awake god for research/a mobile god for exploration/is there some other reason why this physical form is unsuitable?

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

Best chassis for E/N bless is the Master Druid. I'm going to agree that the sacred troops are too expensive to use, but that doesn't mean E9N? is useless either. Its just another viable strategy.

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

Most people chose the master druid, especially under CBM due to the starting paths of e/n.

That being said, the imprsioned oracle can certainly make a good choice. It depends on where you want to take your game.

For example, were I playing with several hot nations one might conclude that pushing cold might be very important. Whereas the points saved on a Dom9 pretender would easily have the oracle pay for itself.

Similiearly, if you wanted to go using scrattis SC's you really do not need an N bless. However you will be crying for MR.
So an F9S9 oracle or FOB may well be worthwhile (presuing niefle gets these).

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

F9 is bad news if you're planning on blessing your thugs. The flaming weapons from the bless will overwrite whatever brand you gave them.

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

I'm curious, so you dump all your design points into a blessing and you're going to buy exactly what to make use of that? Your Jarls are *600* gold, your giants are over 100. You need at least decent if not actively good scales. Sacking scales for a blessing is *not* an option.

Ok, I'll admit I'm assuming CBM 1.6 as the benchmark of any discussion. But as I've seen exactly 1 game made without CBM on these forums in the last 6 months, that's a fairly valid assumption.

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

Really Squirrel, you're getting rather more vehement than necessary. Yes, the bless is expensive. Yes its perfectly possible to play differently. Its also perfectly possible to play with the bless. Calm the frick down and let people do their thing.

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

Truman, optimum build using scrattis does not use a brand at all.
Rather, you are looking at two blood thorns.

Usually I would go with a water bless instead for the extra attack. Usually, I would prefer armor of souls rather than an s9blessing. But a lot of options are perfectly playable.

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

The only game where I am playing Nief was started under the old CBM 1.5, where the Jarls were only 500 gp. And still a viable option with the standard giant bless (E9,N4). The Skrattis are still a good option too though, probably more so under 1.6. The skinshifters are just too expensive in my book though, at 80 gp each.

I believe CBM since 1.5 includes the worthy heroes mods, which gives Nief the heroes that can summon Hirdmen. Why buy skinshifters, when, if you take a little luck, you can get tons of Hirdmen for free? Yeah, they are not as good as skinshifters, but they are pretty tough, and free.

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

However, imprisoned oracle or fountain is not one of them.
Niefle doesn't get either oracles or fob as a pretender choice.

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

The bless also lets you save gems. To get the effect of e8n6 you need a 7n and a 3n forge, which is more expensive than a shroud after alchemizing (and eats two forge and item slots).

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

Yes, that is why you go for the bless. You can make very cheap thugs, a minor astral bless can be worthwhile as well, although in most cases it will only yield +1 MR.

With Robe of the battle saint for 3S you get 13 armor, 4 reinvig, 10% regen, and +1 MR. That is a nice kit for 5S.

BTW: QM has done a great job nerfing Niefelheim. The cold aura is what made them great and he has really slashed it, they are still decent but not wtfomfgbbq.

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

Illuminated One: that's assuming you're trying to duplicate the bless.

Every time you can substitute blood items instead you come out ahead, vastly ahead, because slaves << pearls, and can't be converted.

Also, think about it this way: you're gaining 1 gem at the cost of how many design points? Now think about how much better your scales could have been, and how much more cash and therefore jarls/skratti or castles/temples/labs you would have had with those better scales.

(Ignoring whatever the increased cost for dominion is because you're using a dom 1 chassis, the cost of the E9N4 alone is 336 on a master druid. That's *8* scales. I'd spend an extra gem for +8 scales - ok, no, I'd choose better items instead, like dual blood thorns.)

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

Can't agree with Gandalf that Nief should be a defensive nation: in my opinion you want to take a heavy bless and do a blistering expansion. By the time anyone can compete with you you should have a huge amount of territory. Sounds like squirreloid disagrees though.

I've fought in a couple of games against E9N9 giants, and they really do make you want to cry. They are very hard to hurt, due to high protection. They heal anyway. They never get tired. They never flee, since they go berserk. And if you don't kill them almost immediately, all your troops will fall asleep from the cold.

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

Well, I don't agree they should be defensive either. But the bless feels like Overkill, and spending a lot of limited resources (pretender design points) on something that is overkill is probably a waste.

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

While blood magic just got that huge boost through the removal of clams, it still has its cost. Assuming you wanted to make two skratti and a Jarl each turn with dual blood daggers you need maybe 10 bloodhunters (lets say 450 gp/turn with excellent scales, depending how lucky you are with hunting). And +8 scales doesn't translate into +8 order, but rather suboptimal choices (o3l3, m3 with expensive mages and skull mentors, p3 instead of s3), since you can afford o3s0c3g0l0m0 already with a sleeping god. I.e. your extra scales have to give you 25% extra cash for a 2000 gp income, assuming you are as large as without a bless.
Another problem is that the blood daggers don't work always (undead, high prot stuff, high def stuff), and won't shrug off afflictions.

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

Indeed, you'll still want regen for jarls as skrattis have it in werewolf form, and it comes either from bless (which eases early expansion, meaning stronger late game) or items, which cost gems - 10n when not counting in a hammer. And take either misc slot (I'd rather take ama+luck instead of luck+regen+bless) or chest (pop in chainmail of displacement or if you are swimming in pearls, robe of shadows against chaff, and there are other choices too). Also, missing out an earth bless means you must get the reinvig somehow, and while blood thorns are a good choice against most things, you'd preferably want something that hits with area or at least has more damage/att than athame. AP/AN weapons are ideal as skratti and jarls have huge strength. If you're trying to get high def thugs such as vans (who are kitted for cold immunity) you really can't trust athame to do the job, as it hits one troop and if you are against three-four you can barely even hit 15% of time who can whittle away your jarls hp easily enough with flesh eaters or such. Of course again, counters to counters exist such as getting some extra troops to kick down those vans def and so on.

So, my point was that I think the bless is optimal, as shrouds are not that expensive for skratti and jarls benefit quite optimally from "free" reinvig+regen. You can get o3s3c3g3 dom6-7 quite easily with e9n4 or e9n6 which can't really be boosted incomewise for much additional benefit (sloth->prod). I think it requires some misf or drain though for the e9n6 at least.

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

E9N9 giants get tired and can be killed by skelly spam (net enc 2 after berserk). E9N8 giants have net enc 0 though.

-Max

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

I think berserking units actually get "berserk encumbrance", which is worse. You gain 2 fatigue from just moving around, not just from melee.

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

It's pretty hard to gather the skellyspam to stop them though, it has to be said. And if you do, it uses up a lot of mages/mage-time. I also think the counters to that skelly spam are easier than the skelly spam itself.

In order to really overcome blitz tactics like that you need to do more than just survive, because otherwise your entire economy and research end up wrecked and you'll lose regardless.

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

True, I was being imprecise. For instance, "berserk encumbrance" would not double from being Quickened. Maybe we should call it "berserk exhaustion(2)" to make it clear that it's like turning reinvig(4) into reinvig(2).

-Max

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

Without specifically advocating skelly-spam as a counter (I meant only to point out a vulnerability): can't you just forge a bunch of skull talismans? At 3 death gems a pop w/ hammer, each one should let you completely neutralize-and-sometimes-kill a giant, even if you only have cap-only D1 mages.

Maybe I just have a zero-enc fetish, but I'd rather be E9N8 than E9N9.

-Max

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

Wow, what a long slow battle that would be.

I think you'd need more than 1 each. He'll have someone there to bless them, who'll be able to banish...
The skull talisman bearers will also rack up fatigue, faster than the blessed giants. Some will die to fatigue caused critical, but they still regen.

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

Does Banish have the range to reach the back row? I can't check it right now but obviously you'd have your spammers set way back. I think you're right though that after 20 rounds, the spammers will hit 100 fatigue and will only be able to generate 1 skeleton per 2 rounds. You'd probably want to combine this somehow with a group of bodyguards for the spammers so that when the 20-round limit is hit and the giants finally begin making progress toward the spammers, the giants end up fighting the bodyguards with fatigue 40+ and (hopefully) die.

-Max

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

Probably doesn't have the range, but if they're just priests once they've blessed and Sermon of Couraged every one in reach they'll close until they can banish.

If they're Niefel Jarls, you're in a whole different ball game.

Still, I haven't tried it. It might well be more effective than I think.

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

I haven't tried the skull talisman version, but I've tried skelly spam in test games against other giant opposition like super-skrattir kitted out with blood thorns, and the skeletons do extremely well after just a few rounds of combat, unless there are normal soldiers mixed in with the skeletons for the skrattir to leach off of.

I've also been on the receiving end. For instance, I've had small groups of elite Enc 0 regenerating sacred giants or Eagle Kings in the indy expansion phase stupidly attack a swamp or hot/cold province (doh!) and take lots of afflictions and/or members killed. There is a huge difference between Enc 0 and Enc 2 IME, and I'm probably one of the few players out there who will willingly pay for Earth10 (e.g. for Ashdod or Caelum, anyone with Enc 5 recruitable thugs).

However, I would not be surprised if it turned out that a 1:1 ratio of skull talisman : giants still resulted in a win for the giants. No way to know for sure without testing.

-Max

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

Ya, someone out there said X10 was never worthwhile; I was too lazy to respond, but I agree with Max that these were one of the few occasions; e10 is occassionally worth it. B10 with a blood fountain is occassionally worth it..

Re: Niefelheim Pretender Design Question
 

B10? What for?