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Suhiir December 16th, 2009 01:15 PM
Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Andy/Don, if you know something off the tops of your heads I'd appreciate it.
Do NOT waste time digging thru the game code for "100% accurate" answers.
I'll be more then happy with a "best guess".
Thanks!

According to the MBT Game Guide:

UnitClass 45 = Sniper

"Size 0 gives extra hide and extra difficult to hit abilities. Extra inbuilt accuracy."

It's clear that being size 0 makes a unit harder to spot and hit.
But, the description also says "Extra inbuilt accuracy".

I'm thinking (brainstorming, whatever) that one might possibly classify a unit such as a SEAL 2-man scout team as a sniper thus allowing this "elite" type of unit to hit more often then the weapon tab data normally allows.
Of course, I'll also increase the "experience" and "morale" ratings of SEAL formations in the formations tab.

Questions are:
1) How significant is the accuracy increase for a sniper class unit? Would the combination of this plus the "experience" and "morale" rating increase create a "super unit"?

2) The USMC added a "Designated Marksman" to each infantry squad in 2001. Generally armed with a M-21 (the USMC uses the bolt action M-40 as it's "real sniper" weapon) which I've added to the OOB (13 range, 20 accuracy). By game conventions should a "designated marksman" be classified as a "sniper" unit or merely a size 0 "infantry" unit?


UnitClass 56 = Ammo Carrier

AMMO CANISTER
"Crew is 1 and speed must be 0, supplies small ammo only (to WH size 3), low supply points per move (20 ammo points). Range 1 hex."

AMMO DUMP
"6 or more men, speed must be 0, loadcost>49, an ammo dump supplies at lower rate (~1/2 rate) at 2 hexes range, full rate at 1 or less, has more supply per move(60 ammo points)."

"Anything else is a normal ammo truck, 40 ammo supply points per move. Range 1 hex."

I'm trying to figure out how WinSPMBT determines which type of ammo resupply ability it grants a unit.

1) That is to say, is the fact that an ammo canister is BOTH "crew 1 and speed 0" what gives it "supplies small ammo only (to WH size 3), low supply points per move (20 ammo points). Range 1 hex."?

2) If a unit had a crew of 2 OR a speed greater then 0 would it be classified as an "ammo truck"?

3) Is the fact that an ammo dump is "6 or more men, speed must be 0, loadcost>49" what gives it it's abilities? Would a 6 crew, speed 15, loadcost>49 be classified as an "ammo truck" because it's mobile or an "ammo dump"? (Not that I have any intention of creating a mobile ammo dump, just trying to understand how the game classifies things).

Mobhack December 16th, 2009 01:50 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
1) the sniper class has added abilities over a size 0 unit.

Marksman is already seen in various oobs - they have a regular bolt or assault rifle, and not the sniper rifle. Since the stats are not the same (range + accuracy) , the Cost Calc knows to chop a few points off since it is a sniper without a sniper rifle.

Dedicated marksmen are usually done by adding a sniper rifle line in one of the sections. See UK OOB support sections post 90s.

2) The determination ammo dumps/supply cannisters etc are all done via code, as explained in the GG. Don't mess about with these defaults or you will get unexpected results. (Usually it will think they are a truck - all ammo carriers are vehicles, and there is special code which determines if the thing is a cannister and so avoids the usual 2XX load cost for vehicles so you can sling it in a land rover).

Andy

thatguy96 December 16th, 2009 03:35 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
I'm thinking (brainstorming, whatever) that one might possibly classify a unit such as a SEAL 2-man scout team as a sniper thus allowing this "elite" type of unit to hit more often then the weapon tab data normally allows.
The only issue with this is that the code treats the weapon in slot 1 as being issued to every member of the "squad." So you'd have it essentially treat the 2-man unit as having 2 M40s. From what I've been led to believe, the second person is usually an observer, in the USMC case armed with an M16A4 and M203 grenade launcher. Has this changed? I realize there's no reason to assume that this is still correct.

I have often wondered about whether it might be possible to put pistol in slot one and the sniper rifle in slot 2 (or maybe even slot 4) and get the correct result.

DRG December 16th, 2009 04:23 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
It knows it's a "Cannister" or "Ammo Container" IF the unit has 1 man as it's "crew", it's speed is zero and it's weight is zero. If you devate from that it's not a "Cannister" or "Ammo Container"

Don

Suhiir December 16th, 2009 04:41 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobhack (Post 722166)
1) the sniper class has added abilities over a size 0 unit.

Marksman is already seen in various oobs - they have a regular bolt or assault rifle, and not the sniper rifle. Since the stats are not the same (range + accuracy) , the Cost Calc knows to chop a few points off since it is a sniper without a sniper rifle.

Dedicated marksmen are usually done by adding a sniper rifle line in one of the sections. See UK OOB support sections post 90s.

2) The determination ammo dumps/supply cannisters etc are all done via code, as explained in the GG. Don't mess about with these defaults or you will get unexpected results. (Usually it will think they are a truck - all ammo carriers are vehicles, and there is special code which determines if the thing is a cannister and so avoids the usual 2XX load cost for vehicles so you can sling it in a land rover).

Andy

Kewl, so I can use one of the alternate sniper unit numbers for the marksman. I had just set them up as size 0, 1-man, infantry type units.

And thanks for the clairification on the "ammo cannister".

How about the "ammo dump"? Is it that it's a 6 crew, 0 speed unit that makes it act as a dump rather then an immobile truck?


Actually thatguy96 the USMC snipers ARE scouts these days. Why they're now called Scout/Snipers ;)


Normally the "sniper" carries an M-40 (or M-82) and the "spotter" an M-21.
Commonly however you'll see the "sniper" carry an M-82 and the "spotter" an M-40 for use when a BFG isn't needed.

To the best of my knowledge "real" Scout/Sniper teams never carried the M16/M203 regularly.
HOWEVER !
As with many "special" units those guys can (and do) carry pretty much anything they want!

I get around the problem of having both men in a 2-man sniper team firing by altering the weapon data on the sniper rifle from an HE Kill of 2 to 1. So that way both guys firing won't produce more then 2 kills per shot.

DRG December 16th, 2009 06:39 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 722190)
How about the "ammo dump"? Is it that it's a 6 crew, 0 speed unit that makes it act as a dump rather then an immobile truck?

if men > 5

&& speed = 0

&& loadcost > 49

isdump = TRUE;

Don

Suhiir December 16th, 2009 08:31 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG (Post 722208)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 722190)
How about the "ammo dump"? Is it that it's a 6 crew, 0 speed unit that makes it act as a dump rather then an immobile truck?

if men > 5

&& speed = 0

&& loadcost > 49

isdump = TRUE;

Don
Remind me IOU a beer next time I see you :D

thatguy96 December 17th, 2009 02:19 AM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 722190)
Actually thatguy96 the USMC snipers ARE scouts these days. Why they're now called Scout/Snipers ;)
Never said they weren't. Makes perfect sense that the spotter's weapon would be a more capable rifle. The HEK idea makes good sense too if you're not planning on having single man sniper units.

Mobhack December 17th, 2009 03:51 AM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thatguy96 (Post 722178)
Quote:
I'm thinking (brainstorming, whatever) that one might possibly classify a unit such as a SEAL 2-man scout team as a sniper thus allowing this "elite" type of unit to hit more often then the weapon tab data normally allows.
The only issue with this is that the code treats the weapon in slot 1 as being issued to every member of the "squad." So you'd have it essentially treat the 2-man unit as having 2 M40s. From what I've been led to believe, the second person is usually an observer, in the USMC case armed with an M16A4 and M203 grenade launcher. Has this changed? I realize there's no reason to assume that this is still correct.

I have often wondered about whether it might be possible to put pistol in slot one and the sniper rifle in slot 2 (or maybe even slot 4) and get the correct result.
The game treats the weapon class ONE(1) weapon in weapon slot 1 as being multiplied by the number of team members. (It then deducts that count for firing range, for HE effect. 10 rifles at range 1 are less effective at range 10).

e.g. there was a Japanese "sniper team" set up with crew 2 and 2 slots both with sniper rifles, for a total of 3 weapons issued. (Slot 1 class 1 weapon* 2 crew) + Slot 2 class 1 weapon = 3 rifles, for 2 men.

In game terms, any "observer" can be ignored in sniper elements as irrelevant. The snipers only need the number of shooters, an observer-spotter might be rationalised as FC and/or Vision add-ons etc.

Many sections have an SMG or whatever in slots 2-4 as well as a class 1 infantry prime weapon in the primary weapon slot 1. That suffices for say the UK WW2 section with N rifles, and an SMG issued to the section commander. There are also elements with another rifle in a secondary slot for "flavour" - e.g. say militia with an AK47 primary and a secondary SKS. (It is also used in some larger sections esp WW2 rifle-only ones to beef their rifle fire up a little bit). The cost calculator will charge a couple of points for usage of another weapon slot for these.

Cheers
Andy

Marek_Tucan December 17th, 2009 04:05 AM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 722190)
To the best of my knowledge "real" Scout/Sniper teams never carried the M16/M203 regularly.
AFAIR (too lazy to dig into FMs now) the SBCT sniper teams are supposed to have:
-Sniper with M24
-Spotter with M4
-Grenadier with M4/M203

Some other "sniper" thoughts (some totally insane, some less so, you be the judge) for those who want to mod them:

-if you want to distinguish between "Marksmen" and "snipers", get the marksmen to separate class without sniper bonus (say mech support squad or whatever). If you want to save space in OOB, you may also get all snipers as "Para sniper" - they will cost a tad more due to para qualification but then Snipers are expensive anyway and you'll need only one set of snipers.
-If you want a say two-man sniper team with just 1 sniper rifle... You can change the rifle to class 2 and leave it as primary. Thus there would be only one gun fired while keeping the advantage of primary weapon and more people.
-another idea: for suppression, give the sniper rifle a larger warhead (4) while leaving kill on low - after all sniper's main effect is suppressing the enemy (in conventional warfare anyway).

DRG December 17th, 2009 10:35 AM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 722163)

AMMO CANISTER
"Crew is 1 and speed must be 0, supplies small ammo only (to WH size 3), low supply points per move (20 ammo points). Range 1 hex."



The text will be corrected in the GG for the next release. The actual max warhead size cannisters will resupply is 4 ( see the WW2 MOBHack help file )


Don

Suhiir December 17th, 2009 12:16 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG (Post 722293)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 722163)

AMMO CANISTER
"Crew is 1 and speed must be 0, supplies small ammo only (to WH size 3), low supply points per move (20 ammo points). Range 1 hex."



The text will be corrected in the GG for the next release. The actual max warhead size cannisters will resupply is 4 ( see the WW2 MOBHack help file )


Don
4? Nice! That means they'll resupply the 60mm mortars the USMC uses at company level (that's always been a minor annoyance for me).

Suhiir December 17th, 2009 12:19 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobhack (Post 722253)
Quote:
Originally Posted by thatguy96 (Post 722178)
Quote:
I'm thinking (brainstorming, whatever) that one might possibly classify a unit such as a SEAL 2-man scout team as a sniper thus allowing this "elite" type of unit to hit more often then the weapon tab data normally allows.
The only issue with this is that the code treats the weapon in slot 1 as being issued to every member of the "squad." So you'd have it essentially treat the 2-man unit as having 2 M40s. From what I've been led to believe, the second person is usually an observer, in the USMC case armed with an M16A4 and M203 grenade launcher. Has this changed? I realize there's no reason to assume that this is still correct.

I have often wondered about whether it might be possible to put pistol in slot one and the sniper rifle in slot 2 (or maybe even slot 4) and get the correct result.
The game treats the weapon class ONE(1) weapon in weapon slot 1 as being multiplied by the number of team members. (It then deducts that count for firing range, for HE effect. 10 rifles at range 1 are less effective at range 10).

e.g. there was a Japanese "sniper team" set up with crew 2 and 2 slots both with sniper rifles, for a total of 3 weapons issued. (Slot 1 class 1 weapon* 2 crew) + Slot 2 class 1 weapon = 3 rifles, for 2 men.

In game terms, any "observer" can be ignored in sniper elements as irrelevant. The snipers only need the number of shooters, an observer-spotter might be rationalised as FC and/or Vision add-ons etc.

Many sections have an SMG or whatever in slots 2-4 as well as a class 1 infantry prime weapon in the primary weapon slot 1. That suffices for say the UK WW2 section with N rifles, and an SMG issued to the section commander. There are also elements with another rifle in a secondary slot for "flavour" - e.g. say militia with an AK47 primary and a secondary SKS. (It is also used in some larger sections esp WW2 rifle-only ones to beef their rifle fire up a little bit). The cost calculator will charge a couple of points for usage of another weapon slot for these.

Cheers
Andy
Good thoughts (no surprise considering the source).

Suhiir December 17th, 2009 12:27 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marek_Tucan (Post 722254)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 722190)
To the best of my knowledge "real" Scout/Sniper teams never carried the M16/M203 regularly.
AFAIR (too lazy to dig into FMs now) the SBCT sniper teams are supposed to have:
-Sniper with M24
-Spotter with M4
-Grenadier with M4/M203

Some other "sniper" thoughts (some totally insane, some less so, you be the judge) for those who want to mod them:

-if you want to distinguish between "Marksmen" and "snipers", get the marksmen to separate class without sniper bonus (say mech support squad or whatever). If you want to save space in OOB, you may also get all snipers as "Para sniper" - they will cost a tad more due to para qualification but then Snipers are expensive anyway and you'll need only one set of snipers.
-If you want a say two-man sniper team with just 1 sniper rifle... You can change the rifle to class 2 and leave it as primary. Thus there would be only one gun fired while keeping the advantage of primary weapon and more people.
-another idea: for suppression, give the sniper rifle a larger warhead (4) while leaving kill on low - after all sniper's main effect is suppressing the enemy (in conventional warfare anyway).
I presume you're talking about the US Army.
The USMC has never used the M-24 as a primary sniper weapon.
Also they're 2-man teams not 3.

I originally did have the "marksmen" set as size 0, 1-man, infantry class units with a marksman (20 acc, 13 range) rifle rather then a standard sniper rifle (which I've changed to 18 range - and will no doubt get a LOT of "comments" on, but we'll save that for another day). But the replies here have made me rethink and classify then as sniper class units, still with the less capable marksman rifle tho.

Your other suggestions are certainly worth kicking around.

Mobhack December 17th, 2009 12:44 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Remember - the sniper class gets some benefits when in cover or dug in against direct fire, that infantry do not get (unless being targeted by another sniper, or an H/MMG team). And the sniper is better than regular infantry for shooting grunts when they are dug in/in a trench at > 100 yds.

The AI also knows to hold back sniper classes a little bit to do ranged shooting stuff - if given some 1 man size 0 "pseudo sniper" grunts, it will try to close with them like normal infantry, trying for a (brief) bayonet fight.

So replacing your marksman type with an ordinary infantry class (even if size 0 and 1 man) will have possibly unexpected side effects, though it will be cheaper. (The CC adds extra cost to the sniper classes because of their innate abilities).

Andy

Suhiir December 17th, 2009 03:42 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobhack (Post 722313)
Remember - the sniper class gets some benefits when in cover or dug in against direct fire, that infantry do not get (unless being targeted by another sniper, or an H/MMG team). And the sniper is better than regular infantry for shooting grunts when they are dug in/in a trench at > 100 yds.

The AI also knows to hold back sniper classes a little bit to do ranged shooting stuff - if given some 1 man size 0 "pseudo sniper" grunts, it will try to close with them like normal infantry, trying for a (brief) bayonet fight.

So replacing your marksman type with an ordinary infantry class (even if size 0 and 1 man) will have possibly unexpected side effects, though it will be cheaper. (The CC adds extra cost to the sniper classes because of their innate abilities).

Andy
Once again IOU !
This is exactly the sort of info I needed.

DRG December 18th, 2009 09:03 AM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 722307)

Nice! That means they'll resupply the 60mm mortars the USMC uses at company level (that's always been a minor annoyance for me).
From what we can see it's been like that for quite awhile so this shouldn't have been an issue for at least a couple of years or longer. Its just that section of MBT MOBHack help was not updated

Don

Suhiir December 18th, 2009 12:28 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG (Post 722430)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 722307)

Nice! That means they'll resupply the 60mm mortars the USMC uses at company level (that's always been a minor annoyance for me).
From what we can see it's been like that for quite awhile so this shouldn't have been an issue for at least a couple of years or longer. Its just that section of MBT MOBHack help was not updated

Don
No doubt true, it's just I assumed (yeah, yeah we all know what assuming gets you) MOBHack help was accurate :doh:

DRG December 18th, 2009 12:38 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 722456)
No doubt true, it's just I assumed (yeah, yeah we all know what assuming gets you) MOBHack help was accurate :doh:


1 / How many people do you think actually check the WH sizes of all their units before sending them over to a cannister to re-supply ( besides you ?:) )

2/ How many people do you think actually read MOBHack Help ? ( besides you ?:) )

3/ How many people do you think actually read the game guild

( admittedly there will be more 3's than 2's and 2's than 1's )


ALSO... just for fun I checked the original, untouched V1 copies of the game I have on my HD and ...

Quote:
"AMMO CANNISTER - crew is 1 and speed must be 0. Usually transportable, supplies small ammo only (to WH size 4), low supply points per move (20 ammo points).
has been in the the WW2 MOBHack help since then but the MBT MOBHack help didn't catch the change .It's one of those little things that get overlooked for years then someone notices. It's now been corrected



Don

Suhiir December 18th, 2009 01:13 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG (Post 722460)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 722456)
No doubt true, it's just I assumed (yeah, yeah we all know what assuming gets you) MOBHack help was accurate :doh:


1 / How many people do you think actually check the WH sizes of all their units before sending them over to a cannister to re-supply ( besides you ?:) )

2/ How many people do you think actually read MOBHack Help ? ( besides you ?:) )

3/ How many people do you think actually read the game guild

( admittedly there will be more 3's than 2's and 2's than 1's )


ALSO... just for fun I checked the original, untouched V1 copies of the game I have on my HD and ...

Quote:
"AMMO CANNISTER - crew is 1 and speed must be 0. Usually transportable, supplies small ammo only (to WH size 4), low supply points per move (20 ammo points).
has been in the the WW2 MOBHack help since then but the MBT MOBHack help didn't catch the change .It's one of those little things that get overlooked for years then someone notices. It's now been corrected

Don
That's only because I'm trying to "revise" an OOB without breaking the game too badly. I KNOW many (most?) of my revisions won't be suitable for inclusion in the game, but I'd very much like them to be "realistic" and "reasonable" within the WinMBT's general guidelines and given limitations enforced by the games source code.

None of this means I can't have fun trying to "improve" the "simulation" value of the game...even if I have to break game conventions left-and-right to do so :angel

Look at the bright side Andy/Don - if nothing else you should get a few laughs out of my alterations.

DRG December 18th, 2009 02:48 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
I appreciate what you are trying to do but this OOB or your's has had a longer gestation than an elephant.:D

Had we spent that much time on each OOB the game wouldn't have been released until 2169. :shock:
( 92 OOB's x 22 months each / 12 + 2001 )

Maybe it's time this OOB of yours saw the light of day ? :idea:


Don

Suhiir December 18th, 2009 02:57 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG (Post 722494)
I appreciate what you are trying to do but this OOB or your's has had a longer gestation than an elephant.:D

Had we spent that much time on each OOB the game wouldn't have been released until 2169. :shock:
( 92 OOB's x 22 months each / 12 + 2001 )

Maybe it's time this OOB of yours saw the light of day ? :up:


Don
I was thinking a whale, longer gestation period then an elephant.
Well unlike you guys I don't have the luxury of working on this full time, and I'm SERIOUSLY considering not creating the new Picklists to save me a ton of time. This of course means the new OOB will totally unable to be used by the AI for force selection, limiting it to player selection only. But I'm sure there will be suggestions (and not a few loud screams) when folks get a look at it, and of course there will be typos and other mistakes that need fixing.
All I can do is quote you guys - "It'll be done when it's done."

DRG December 18th, 2009 03:13 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 722496)
Well unlike you guys I don't have the luxury of working on this full time,
When we started this I was working shiftwork full time AND putting in well over 30 hours a week on the games. There was no "luxury of working on this full time" That only started a couple of years ago when I retired but the amount of time I spend on this now is less than I did back in 2001. When we were working on spww2 in the early days there was many a time I was up to 2 am working on the game then up at 5 am to go to work. I don't do that any more becasue it was stupid then and stupid now but that's what it took to get this to where we are now

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 722496)
But I'm sure there will be suggestions (and not a few loud screams) when folks get a look at it, and of course there will be typos and other mistakes that need fixing.
You could check it 100 times yourself and somebody will spot one right off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 722496)

All I can do is quote you guys - "It'll be done when it's done."
Yes but when we say that there's a time period attached to the statment and we always release within a week or two of when we say it's going to happen. I suppose I could make it easier on ourselves by not doing that :D



Don

Imp December 18th, 2009 05:42 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
I must admit to following its albeit slow progress with intrest. Pick lists were mentioned I know its a dark area to be messed with on a backup copy but how do you adjust them? I have found the files but have no idea how to open them but would like to be able to set some up. Mainly for Green & Red so picks what I want as in govt or militia & for a few countries less tank intensive picks. The game does seem to pick diffrently vs diffrent opponents even terrain & realise if I play with I am on my own.

Suhiir December 18th, 2009 06:36 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG (Post 722501)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 722496)
Well unlike you guys I don't have the luxury of working on this full time,
When we started this I was working shiftwork full time AND putting in well over 30 hours a week on the games. There was no "luxury of working on this full time" That only started a couple of years ago when I retired but the amount of time I spend on this now is less than I did back in 2001. When we were working on spww2 in the early days there was many a time I was up to 2 am working on the game then up at 5 am to go to work. I don't do that any more becasue it was stupid then and stupid now but that's what it took to get this to where we are now

Don
Ack!
I assumed (yeah, yeah, ***-u-me) you guys worked on this 20+ hours a week, with two of you that made it a full-time job.
Myself, if I have the time/inclination I get maybe 5 hours in a week. With the occasional most of a day on a weekend or when I'm off from work.
We won't get into that I'm more-or-less rebuilding the whole OOB from scratch while trying to make as certain as possible none of the date changes destroy the ability of existing scenarios to use the OOB.
I won't comment on what I've had to do to the formations other then to say there is no way in hell the existing picklists can be used with the OOB.
Were I just adding a handful of units and doing some tweaking I'd have been done long, loooong ago. But in a fit of utter stupidity I decided to do the job "right".

Suhiir December 18th, 2009 06:46 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imp (Post 722519)
I must admit to following its albeit slow progress with intrest. Pick lists were mentioned I know its a dark area to be messed with on a backup copy but how do you adjust them? I have found the files but have no idea how to open them but would like to be able to set some up. Mainly for Green & Red so picks what I want as in govt or militia & for a few countries less tank intensive picks. The game does seem to pick diffrently vs diffrent opponents even terrain & realise if I play with I am on my own.
Without getting into a lot of detail the picklists look mostly at the date and the enemy OOB (i.e. a mech or infantry strong nation) and in the first pass always pick some sort of mortar and AA/MPAD unit so the AI is never completely without something in these categories. Then it cycles thru the formations available on the given date with an eye toward the enemy's mobility (i.e. if the enemy is infantry heavy select less AT weapons) selecting armor, infantry, artillery, and air type formations until it runs out of points.
This is both elegant in it's simplicity and very, VERY easy to screw up totally when you mess with the lists or (god forbid) alter the formations an OOB uses.

DRG December 18th, 2009 07:13 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 722528)
Were I just adding a handful of units and doing some tweaking I'd have been done long, loooong ago. But in a fit of utter stupidity I decided to do the job "right".
Well......"right" remains to be seen.. Yes ?? :D It's only "right" if it "plays well with others". It might end up being so "right" it doesn't work with the rest of the OOB's in the game and you're left with 500 hours of work that is an interesting curiosity to you and handful of others and that's fine if that was your intent. Lot's of people have dumped hundreds of hours work into personal projects that were based on SP over the years that end up as a niche curiosity. There's a thread about a guy who did an SP Naval game that nobody can find a copy of now and from what I saw of the screen shots I would love to have copies of his ship Icons just for my personal records.

Everyone needs a hobby. I'm not trying to get up your nose about this but my point about your OOB is ( IMHO ) it would have been better to issue it as a WIP once it got to the playable stage then deal with the problems others find and the suggestions they make and use that as a starting point to make improvements or changes, No matter how long you tinker with it so it's "perfect" that will never be and I've been doing this long enough to know that as a carved in granite fact

Don

Imp December 19th, 2009 04:44 AM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Without getting into a lot of detail the picklists look mostly at the date and the enemy OOB (i.e. a mech or infantry strong nation) and in the first pass always pick some sort of mortar and AA/MPAD unit so the AI is never completely without something in these categories. Then it cycles thru the formations available on the given date with an eye toward the enemy's mobility (i.e. if the enemy is infantry heavy select less AT weapons) selecting armor, infantry, artillery, and air type formations until it runs out of points.
This is both elegant in it's simplicity and very, VERY easy to screw up totally when you mess with the lists or (god forbid) alter the formations an OOB uses.
I bet that last statement is a major understatement but I do like to tinker stops the brain imploding what program do you use to edit them. As people should not really be messing with due to impending disaster so dont think its appropriate for forum plese feel free to PM me the details. Think this could be another case of subjecting myself to distess all in the name of fun, go figure got the swear box ready.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Marek_Tucan December 19th, 2009 07:45 AM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
PM sent.

Suhiir December 20th, 2009 04:31 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG (Post 722534)

Well......"right" remains to be seen.. Yes ?? :D It's only "right" if it "plays well with others". It might end up being so "right" it doesn't work with the rest of the OOB's in the game and you're left with 500 hours of work that is an interesting curiosity to you and handful of others and that's fine if that was your intent. Lot's of people have dumped hundreds of hours work into personal projects that were based on SP over the years that end up as a niche curiosity. There's a thread about a guy who did an SP Naval game that nobody can find a copy of now and from what I saw of the screen shots I would love to have copies of his ship Icons just for my personal records.

Everyone needs a hobby. I'm not trying to get up your nose about this but my point about your OOB is ( IMHO ) it would have been better to issue it as a WIP once it got to the playable stage then deal with the problems others find and the suggestions they make and use that as a starting point to make improvements or changes, No matter how long you tinker with it so it's "perfect" that will never be and I've been doing this long enough to know that as a carved in granite fact

Don
Oh I know folks will scream about some of the changes I've made to weapons data.
However, the unit name/availability date data and the formations themselves shouldn't be an issue. If folk want they can change the weapon data back to the original (with the need to create data for a couple weapons I've added) and it should work just fine. One thing I've tried to be VERY careful about is making sure no existing unit is deleted (tho some are marked as "unused" and given "3" for rarity) and the availability dates match as closely as possible with those in the existing OOB is that it can be used with existing scenarios. Fortunately the USMC OOB (unlike many others) has sufficient open slots.
And it's that compatibility checking that makes this process very time consuming.

All that said, yeah, I'm an anal-retentive perfectionist, heck why do you think I started, and kept going on, this project?

Suhiir December 20th, 2009 04:33 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imp (Post 722596)
Quote:
Without getting into a lot of detail the picklists look mostly at the date and the enemy OOB (i.e. a mech or infantry strong nation) and in the first pass always pick some sort of mortar and AA/MPAD unit so the AI is never completely without something in these categories. Then it cycles thru the formations available on the given date with an eye toward the enemy's mobility (i.e. if the enemy is infantry heavy select less AT weapons) selecting armor, infantry, artillery, and air type formations until it runs out of points.
This is both elegant in it's simplicity and very, VERY easy to screw up totally when you mess with the lists or (god forbid) alter the formations an OOB uses.
I bet that last statement is a major understatement but I do like to tinker stops the brain imploding what program do you use to edit them. As people should not really be messing with due to impending disaster so dont think its appropriate for forum plese feel free to PM me the details. Think this could be another case of subjecting myself to distess all in the name of fun, go figure got the swear box ready.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
I'm sure Mark's PM was far more informative then anything I could send you. If for no other reason then I have zero information on picklists written down (other then a few post-it notes).

Imp December 20th, 2009 06:08 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
I'm sure Mark's PM was far more informative then anything I could send you. If for no other reason then I have zero information on picklists written down (other then a few post-it notes).
Cheers for reply, suggest concentrate on OOB & let the experts look at the pick list after. Need your thinking cap on for it I feel & even then !!! Like most things in this game far easier to muck it up than make any gains, hidden for a reason.

DRG December 21st, 2009 02:22 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 722746)
One thing I've tried to be VERY careful about is making sure no existing unit is deleted (tho some are marked as "unused" and given "3" for rarity) and the availability dates match as closely as possible with those in the existing OOB is that it can be used with existing scenarios.
OK, you're really not going to be very happy reading this but these are newbie OOB designer assumptions / errors the could have save you hours of time and a lot of aggravation if this hadn't been kept a state secret. :doh:

1/ any unit you want to leave in JUST IN CASE a scenario uses it but don't want to show up in the game as a pick you make nation 99 *IF* you haven't built units and formations you only want available in higher formations and used 99 for those as well. ( load US OOB, click on database check utilities,click on FORMATION CHECKS then Broken links that shows all the little sub formations that only exist in a higher formation)

If you have none of those just making the unit nation 99 will hide it but a scenario will happily pick it up if it was already used by one

1B / Want to find out if any change you make affects any scenario using USMC ?? Load SCENHack. Press ALT+T and you will get a list of all scenarios that contain any deviate data. Not all problems that are found there are the result of errors, then may be the result of a scenario designer playing around with unit data. It's a judgment call what needs to be repaired and what doesn't

2/ Scenarios don't care what the availability date is once it's been put in a scenario. It's easy to check.. build a unit 1946 - 1980 then build a test scenario using that unit in 1975 then trim back the units availability to 1950. Unit will still show up in the scenario. There are a couple dozen people on this forum that could have told you that if we'd known this was a concern

Merry Christmas BTW :D

Don

Suhiir December 21st, 2009 03:51 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG (Post 722868)

OK, you're really not going to be very happy reading this but these are newbie OOB designer assumptions / errors the could have save you hours of time and a lot of aggravation if this hadn't been kept a state secret. :doh:

1/ any unit you want to leave in JUST IN CASE a scenario uses it but don't want to show up in the game as a pick you make nation 99 *IF* you haven't built units and formations you only want available in higher formations and used 99 for those as well. ( load US OOB, click on database check utilities,click on FORMATION CHECKS then Broken links that shows all the little sub formations that only exist in a higher formation).
If you have none of those just making the unit nation 99 will hide it but a scenario will happily pick it up if it was already used by one
I didn't know about the 99 nation code.
I've been setting them to unit types (guards infantry etc) that aren't used in the OOB and/or giving them an X3.
In the future I'll keep 99 in mind, and it's good for anyone else similarly insane to know this anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG (Post 722868)
1B / Want to find out if any change you make affects any scenario using USMC ?? Load SCENHack. Press ALT+T and you will get a list of all scenarios that contain any deviate data. Not all problems that are found there are the result of errors, then may be the result of a scenario designer playing around with unit data. It's a judgment call what needs to be repaired and what doesn't
Useful, thanks!


Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG (Post 722868)
2/ Scenarios don't care what the availability date is once it's been put in a scenario. It's easy to check.. build a unit 1946 - 1980 then build a test scenario using that unit in 1975 then trim back the units availability to 1950. Unit will still show up in the scenario. There are a couple dozen people on this forum that could have told you that if we'd known this was a concern

Merry Christmas BTW :D

Don
Yeah I know an existing scenario could care less as long as the unit number matches, I'm trying to avoid having TOW missiles show up in 1950 by keeping the dates as close as possible, in theory someone could (I hope) design a scenario with the stock OOB and someone else could run it using mine and everything will match up fairly well.

I NEVER claimed to be approaching this sanely!

Merry XMas & a Happy New Year to you too :sick:

DRG December 21st, 2009 04:51 PM
Re: Questions on unit classes for Andy/Don
 
99 is just convenient. Zero could be ( and has been ) used as well

Don


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