Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

I've been considering the current game effects of Thermobaric (FAE) ammo.
In "reality" FAE's are just big explosions in small packages not incendiary weapons. Currently the 40mm FAE is classified 8-Infantry Flame, the SMAW-NE as 18-Napalm, and the CBU Incendiary as 18-Napalm.
All of these weapons create a burning hex in addition to their damage effects.

Would it be "more accurate" to use the 999 AP Pen code for them?

Or possibly rate them more like a satchel charge with a smaller Warhead size (3 or 4) so they don't supress surrounding hexes?

Discussion?

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

there is no 999 ap code. That is the reported penetration value for flame weapons generated internally by the code.

Flamethrower type weapons suit as thermobarics best in the Sp engine.

Andy

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

Thanks.

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

BTW, if you want to have some fun with the, get the russian mlrs that fires them. Shoot near enemy armour. Laughter. I found out about it in a recent game. Way overpowered.

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

Off topic a bit but in what way pressume talking TOS-1s here. They are great for taking out entire Mech Co or infantry but vs armour not really enough punch to kill, have had them dirrect fired at my armour to in desperation. Taking advantage of any suppresion can be tricky to as a couple of flame hexes can stop TI seeing through. As a note makes them handy tools as an attacker in river crossings due to this.

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

Well, I am sure one of my opponents will have a different opinion on the matter after a single hit destroyed 4 Merkava 4s which were parked on the same hex.

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

Well I would say someone smiled on you, only has 20 odd CM rating not the fairly standard 60, it will however probably have a greater variety of results as its a flame weapon.
I may have been unlucky with but find regular CM better vs tanks, mind you cant say I have come across anyone kind enough to park 4 tanks in 1 hex bet the richochets went on for a bit unless you had fast arty on:)

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

I never have fast arty on.
Merkava's went to the heavens in one hit.
So did any vehicle it hit at other parts of the battle. Be it tanks, APCs. Yes, TOS-1 series.
It has less effect than CM artillery in the sense that it destroys only what it hits (hex), where CM artillery doesn't care about that, it will destroy and damage tanks not only in the same hex but all the neightbouring+hexes in a radius of 2+1 hexes. So yes CM arti is far more powerful in that you have a better chance of hitting enemy. :)

But yeah, I stopped using them both PBEM and against the AI. They feel very unfair.

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

The TOS-1 looks like something from science fiction :)

I wish there were more vehicles like them.

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

The Tos graphics currently don't do the weapon justice because the weapon class is 9 whereas it should be 18 ( and is now ) like any other flame rocket

Don

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

The Tos graphics currently don't do the weapon justice because the weapon class is 9 whereas it should be 18 ( and is now ) like any other flame rocket and is an exceedingly nasty fuel-air weapon that fires a salvo of 30 missiles in anywhere from 7.5 -15 seconds depending on the source.

It wouldn't do tanks any good either and it's already a very expensive weapon that's twice the cost of CM rockets

If you want to criticize the weapon stats, that's fine, but try doing it with actual data if you think it's "Way overpowered"


Don

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

I'm just a bit annoyed by the residual burning hex effects from the way FAE's are currently modeled in the game. It's not that big a deal, I was just thinking since they're really more of an explosion then a "real" flame attack they might possibly be modeled differently.
As I said, just brainstorming.

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

It feels overpowered to me (and my opponent) the way a single shot from a weapon would feel if it would take out (as in 100% destroy) 4 Merkava 4s in one hit.
I have zero knowledge about the specific weapon so I do not comment on if it is overpowered in terms of not good translation reality--->game. So, I am not criticizing the way it is implemented in the game.

That doesn't change what I think about CM in the game, but that is a different matter so no point in talking about here I guess.

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

As I said think you were lucky it will flaten IFVs 95% of the time but vs tanks nowhere near that effective, unharmed or light damage with heavy suppresion is common vs a MBT in my experience. Vs troops if anything might be more effective due to blanket effect, even if found cover somehow from the heat I would think there is no oxygen left to breath which is probably terminal.
Kartoffel worth a look at them in action on you tube, the old Tungunaska is a good view to. Also try typing in power sliding/drifting tanks or some such. Some great vids of guys messing on snow ice in MBT IFVs 60 Tons going sideways at 30 miles an hour is a bit mad, wonder what the battle computer would make of it.

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

Four tanks were concentrated at the centre of a cloud of highly explosive gas. What did you expect would happen ???

Don

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

Sigh...I am not saying the unit is not implemented correctly in the game. I am saying it is too powerful for my (and opponents) taste and thus we don't use it any more.

Don't confuse my view on the CM artillery and the TOS-1. :)

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

The words you used were "Way overpowered" The concept of "my (and opponents) taste " didn't enter into the conversation until later .

I'm suggesting if you think it's overpowered then present me with some evidence to support that contention and I'll consider a change but we are dealing with a weapon that in real life turns an area 400 metres by 200 metres into the eye of a firestorm.

Don

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

Not only that, being thermobaric (Fuel-Air Explosive) it rips all the local oxygen right out of the air to fuel the explosion (The bomb provides the fuel cloud, the environment the air), and that includes any residing in the lungs of anyone unlucky to be caught in there too.

(In that it is somewhat similar to flame-throwers & napalm - the primary thing those did was to consume the limited air in a targeted bunker(or tank) to fuel the petroleum fire, and so asphyxiate the defenders or force them out into the flame seeking oxygen. Choke effect as much as toast.)

The FAE "explosion" does not happen at one point (like an HE shell) but happens all around the cloud of fuel the bomb had dispersed prior to the ignition event. Everything basically goes off at once, and you get multiple shock waves and debris coming from all angles, not just from the single point source of an HE explosion. If the grunts in the fuel cloud have breathed in any fuel droplets in the time before ignition, nasty.

Basically a manufactured version of a flour/grain elevator or coal-dust mine explosion, or a domestic gas leak.

Again flame-throwers can be used to 'roll your own FAE' - it was common practice in WW2 for Churchill Crocodiles to hose down a bunker with raw unlit fuel and let it soak in for a few seconds, to emit petroleum vapour which would pool in the enclosed spaces of the building as the fuel splashed about. Then fire a final live flame shot for a nice big WHUMP.

In Real Life - FAE are subject to atmospheric conditions (wind, rain, fog, etc) which can cause them to fizzle.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

OK, lets start with the weapons. Which ones specifically ? Give me a couple of examples. There are at least three ways a flame weapon could be modeled in the game so I need specifics not generalities

Don

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

Jez what a way to go, you get a couple of seconds to realise you are about to become toast.

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

Let's see if I am more clear this time.
One "shell" of the Tos-1 falling in a hex that there are 4 Merkava 4s, it destroys all of them. This, I feel being too much powerful for my (and my opponent) taste. Why is it that difficult to just accept that we have this view on it that doesn't necessarily mean you guys haven done something wrong?

I don't know if it is accurate or not. I guess we are not going to find out before someone use it in real life against them.

I am fine with it, I just refuse to use it.

But since you continue with this, is anything going to change with the way CM artillery works and i ts efficiency in the surrounding+ hexes it hits?

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

Given that CM isn't the topic of this thread and was only mentioned in passing by you on post #8 and there are no other active threads discussing CM effects and you are the only one who has expressed an opinion about it's effects right now I'd have to say no.

Start a new thread and lets see what everyone has to say

Don

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

OOB 13 USMC (of course!)

Weapon #30 - 40mm TB Grenade (Wpn Cls 8 - Inf Flame)
Seems a bit odd that a 40mm round sets a 50m hex on fire.

Weapon #162 - SMAW-NE (Wpn Cls 18 - Napalm)
I can see the larger SMAW round starting a fire in a hex - but...

Weapon #185 - CBU Incendiary (Wpn Cls 18 - Napalm)
Thinking this might be "better" (better being of course subjective and relative) modeled more like Weapon #203 - 1000lb Airburst.

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

I have zero issues with CM or various other area effect rounds destroying multiple targets in a hex (or surrounding ones).
I do however find it immensely amusing when an aircraft fired Maverick kills two or more targets or one in an adjacent hex. I assume this is an unintended but unavoidable side effect of warhead size.

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

No, as we have constantly pointed out, air weapons are High Explosive (when not specifically CM or Napalm). That includes Mavericks or air cannons. HE will attack all in the same and sometimes surrounding hexes.

There are no HEAT fixed-wing air PGM, all are effectively a form of LGB.

Andy

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

Yup, as I said, unintended but unavoidable side effect of the game code. As you say air weapons "work like they work", and without some serious recoding (which ain't gonna happen) we can just chuckle at them from time-to-time.

I've played around a bit with the Pen & Kill numbers on various bombs and air-launched missiles (and gotten some very amusing results) but haven't stumbled across and set of Pen/Kill values that "work better" then the ones used in the game now. I have however had some success adjusting Warhead Size that reduces the frequency (reducing, not eliminating) of adjacent/same hex colatteral kills from missiles. So far I havn't done an extensive experiment to see if it's also reducing the lethality to the target as well, one has to assume it is, how much I can't say at the moment.

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

Latest WW2 patch has a tool that will let you find out, assume it works across both OOBs, slightly less Pen & less effective vs units in cover will be the result I think.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

OOB 11 (Russia)

WC=8 (Inf Flame)
#032 RMG RG Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=15 HEK=50 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=35
#033 TBG-7V Acc=20 Whd=2 HEP=11 HEK=55 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=33
#119 ATO FT Acc=30 Whd=45 HEP=0 HEK=25 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=14
#171 TPO FT Acc=30 Whd=45 HEP=0 HEK=30 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=20

WC=9 (Veh Flame)
#117 ATO VFT Acc=20 Whd=45 HEP=0 HEK=40 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=25
#244 220mm FAE Acc=20 Whd=4 HEP=22 HEK=140 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=66

WC=18 (Napalm)
#031 RPO Shmel Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=9 HEK=45 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=27
#068 RPO Shmel-M Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=11 HEK=60 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=30
#076 RPO Rys Acc=15 Whd=3 HEP=6 HEK=30 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=20
#219 ZAB-500 Acc=20 Whd=5 HEP=15 HEK=200 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
#221 ZAB-250 Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=8 HEK=100 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0

OOB 12 (US Army)

WC=8 (Inf Flame)
#047 40mm TB Acc=20 Whd=2 HEP=4 HEK=10 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=12
#119 Flamethrower Acc=30 Whd=45 HEP=0 HEK=25 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=14
#161 Fougasse Acc=20 Whd=55 HEP=11 HEK=110 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=25

WC=18 (Napalm)
#166 FAE Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=15 HEK=200 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
#221 Napalm 250 Acc=5 Whd=3 HEP=5 HEK=50 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
#223 Napalm 500 Acc=5 Whd=5 HEP=10 HEK=100 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
#239 66mm Rkt Acc=20 Whd=4 HEP=7 HEK=28 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=14

OOB 13 (USMC)

WC=8 (Inf Flame)
#030 40mm TB Acc=20 Whd=2 HEP=4 HEK=10 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=12
#119 Flamethrower Acc=30 Whd=45 HEP=0 HEK=25 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=14
#161 Fougasse Acc=20 Whd=55 HEP=11 HEK=110 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=25

WC=18 (Napalm)
#162 SMAW-NE Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=2 HEK=27 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=27
#185 CBU Incen Acc=101 Whd=3 HEP=19 HEK=190 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
#221 Napalm 250 Acc=5 Whd=3 HEP=5 HEK=50 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
#223 Napalm 500 Acc=5 Whd=5 HEP=10 HEK=100 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
#239 66mm Rkt Acc=20 Whd=2 HEP=7 HEK=28 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=14

Ok, given the above data from the current version of the game :

WC=8 (Inf Flame)
RMG RG Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=15 HEK=50 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=35
TBG-7V Acc=20 Whd=2 HEP=11 HEK=55 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=33
40mm TB Acc=20 Whd=2 HEP=4 HEK=10 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=12

I'm wondering if the HEP rating on the 40mm TB might be a tad low.

WC=18 (Napalm)
OOB 12 (US Army)
#239 66mm Rkt Acc=20 Whd=4 HEP=7 HEK=28 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=14
OOB 13 (USMC)
#239 66mm Rkt Acc=20 Whd=2 HEP=7 HEK=28 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=14

Different Warhead size.

WC=18 (Napalm)
RPO Shmel Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=9 HEK=45 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=27
RPO Shmel-M Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=11 HEK=60 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=30
RPO Rys Acc=15 Whd=3 HEP=6 HEK=30 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=20
66mm Rkt Acc=20 Whd=2 HEP=7 HEK=28 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=14
SMAW-NE Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=2 HEK=27 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=27

I'm thinking the SMAW-NE might have a higher Acc given the 9mm spotter.

RPO Shmel, 93mm, 2.1kg warhead.
SMAW-NE, 83mm, between 4.35kg and 6.9kg round weight (no specific warhead weight data I could find, I'd assume about 1/2 the round weight so apx. 2 to 3.5kg).

Given this perhaps the HEP, HEK, and HEAT Pen might be reconsidered.

Also the 66mm Rkt uses a 0.61kg napalm warhead and has a higher HEP then the SMAW-NE.

WC=18 (Napalm)
ZAB-500 Acc=20 Whd=5 HEP=15 HEK=200 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
ZAB-250 Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=8 HEK=100 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
FAE Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=15 HEK=200 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
Napalm 250 Acc=5 Whd=3 HEP=5 HEK=50 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
Napalm 500 Acc=5 Whd=5 HEP=10 HEK=100 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
CBU Incen Acc=101 Whd=3 HEP=19 HEK=190 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0

Look at HEK, Napalm=50 & 100, FAE=100 & 200, CBU=190.
Might 190 be a bit low for the CBU?

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

I'll tuck this away and will get to it when I get to it...


Don

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

IDK, the Acc=101 makes it the most accurate "napalm" weapon in the game and there are only three weapons with a higher HEP.

There is no other "CBU" more accurate and no other "cluster" weapon that's even close for HEKill.

Don

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

40mm tb is flame, will have 999 pen(game code thing) if hits, so i don't think HEP is really important. :) Don, Andy, is that true?

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

No, the HE figures for the weapon are used for most of the HE pen stuff.

IF it is a flame weapon and certain internal things happen in the penetration code
THEN it will have 999 pen figure assigned to it for that shot as a 'sure thing'.

Which does not necessarily mean it will kill, just that the flame weapon is odds-on for a penetration.
Kill calculations come after penetration calculations.



Andy

Re: Current game effects of thermobaric ammo
 

For the HEK I was looking at in in relation to :

ZAB-500 Acc=20 Whd=5 HEP=15 HEK=200 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
ZAB-250 Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=8 HEK=100 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
FAE Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=15 HEK=200 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0

rather then "plain" napalm.

If the Acc=101 isn't a typo then the 10 less HEK compared to a 500# FAE is well and truly irrelevant. I sorta assumed the Acc=101 might be a typo (gee, and we know what assuming gets you) :doh: