Australian tank squadrons
 

Here's another question for someone who knows

In the game currently Australian Tank squadrons starting in 1986 are 3 x 3 tank troops plus one commanders tank and one for the 2IC making 11 tanks total ( 3 x 3+2 =11). BEFORE 1986 the set up is 4x4+2= 18 .

I started looking for info on the Australian Abrams and ended up on a Aussie website where one claim was ......

A / "Our tank Squadrons are equipped with 18 tanks per Sqn, with 4x troops of 4 tanks, 1x for the OC and 1x for the 2IC"

then someone else said.....

B / "We changed from 3 tanks per platoon to 4 and from four platoons per company to three not long ago. Two tanks are for the boss and his XO.......This system steals one manoeuvre element but increases the ability of the platoon to support and cover itself while on the run. "


A/ would be 4x4+2 = 18

B/ would be 4x3+2 =14

If what A/ says is true there never was a reduction in 1986 and if what B says is true then the 1986 change should have been 3x4+2 = 14 and the latest change keeps the same number of tanks in the company but re-organizes the troop which makes sense given what he says about "increases the ability of the platoon to support and cover itself "

Can someone tell me if "B/" is correct and if yes when did the troop change occur ?

Thanks.



Don

Re: Australian tank squadrons
 

Don,
You might get that info from AussieDigger.com it's an ADF Active Duty and Retired Military website that I got some of my info about the ADF HAWKEI by Thales. Website should correct as named in my MRAP thread I believe on page 4.
Pat

Re: Australian tank squadrons
 

The site has changed to "The.....com", while verifying the site on linked to the following
http://www.australian-armour.com/main_page.html and left the question with them to get the official answer. Will pass on the response when I get it.
Pat

Re: Australian tank squadrons
 

Thanks !

Don

Re: Australian tank squadrons
 

Don,
Heard from a Mr. Mick Martin and was rightly corrected in my use of platoon to troop, and it's all good!! He has informed me that currently a troop consists of four tanks. Three troops plus SQD. HQ troop to a SQD. This seems about right as the only fully armored regiment they have (The 4th I believe) took "custody" of 59 Abrams and I believe it was 2 or 3 M88 recovery vehicles as well in 2007/8. Asked Mr. Martin to get back to me concerning any change in troop size as I believe you thought occurred in 1986. He also wants to confirm the SQD. HQ allotment of tanks. Holding the emails as I get them in my hotmail account.
Pat

Re: Australian tank squadrons
 

Thanks Pat.

Don

Re: Australian tank squadrons
 

Don,
Heard from Mick again, confirms troops were at three tanks. Not sure of your time frame as he thinks it might have been into the early 90's, but does say it wasn't much before your date. Looks like a 6yr. "swag" which isn't much help I know. Said he'll get the year to me later this week. And I'm going to contact their tank regiment directly this weekend if the link is still good to tighten this up.
Pat

Re: Australian tank squadrons
 

I think what has happened in our OOB is the number of tanks in a troop and the number of troops in a company ended up mixed up in a creative way.

It should have been four troops in a company ( 4x4+2= 18 ) dropping one tank per troop ( 4x3+2=14 ) but we ended up with the fourth troop dropped as well in the late 80's giving the existing 3x3+2=11 which I believe now is part of the problem. Sometime recently they've re-established the 4 tank troop but changed to three troops so we sort of had it right but at the wrong time and in the wrong order

For obvious reasons I wait until he gets back with the date of the switch back to the four tank troop and when the three tank troop was introduced before making further changes


Don

Re: Australian tank squadrons
 

Don,
This shows the structure as of 1968 which is your start point I believe.
http://www.awm.gov.au/atwar/structur..._structure.asp
Will probably piss someone off at ADF DOD since I'm not media but left inquiry with them about the 4 tank troop date.
Pat

Re: Australian tank squadrons
 

Thanks for looking into this Pat

This shows that in 1968 they were using a 3 tanks per troop , 4 troops per squadron organization. ( and interesting how 1968 can be easily transposed to 1986 which is what we have now ) We had the four tank troop lasting until 1985 so the whole things off and will need a good going over and a good tweak of the picklist once the actual dates are firmed up. I will continue to dig for info and welcome any info anyone can provide.



Don

Re: Australian tank squadrons
 

The organization for the Tank Squadron attached to the ATF in Vietnam as of 1970, according to the documentation put out by the Army Concept Team in Vietnam, showed a squadron with 4 troops with 4 tanks each. The caveat to that was that the troops normally operated with only 3 tanks, with the fourth tank in each troop being kept in a squadron reserve, rotating to troops in need.

Re: Australian tank squadrons
 

Which, of course, conflicts with the "offical" information provided on the Austrlian Goverment website Pat provided. By that, they had "offically" switched to three tanks per troop in 1968.

Troops in the field frequently make their own changes organizations like this and there very well may have been "special arrangements" made in Vietnam keeping the old number of tanks in the squadron but holding one back per troop for maintanance and war being what it is and subject to whims of commanders there may very well have been cases where 4 tanks per troop were fielded after 1968 but according to this info 3 per troop was the norm from about 1968. The info that continues to allude us is the report that they have gone to a three troop 4 tanks per troop organization and I think the only way we are going to know that for sure is if a serving member of the Australian army pops up. Right now I am "assuming" if it's true they have gone back to a 4 tank troop but cut the number of troops in a Sdn to 3 it happened when the Abrams was introduced.

That's what makes OOB work such a &$@!!! treat........

Don

Re: Australian tank squadrons
 

Don,
Read your last, it's easy enough to do! This is JUST an update and NO response is required. I actually heard back from the ADF PAO. An MR4 James O'Callaghan who's offered further asst. if needed, based on his recommendation have forwarded his reply and my inquiry with the ADF's War Museum and Calvary & Armored Museum. Will keep you posted.
Pat

Re: Australian tank squadrons
 

Consider this a lesson on how things get screwed up

I went back a re-read the original forum these posts were made on and discovered on closer observation that " A/" was an Australian and " B/" was a German. (!! ) The whole "We changed from 3 tanks per platoon to 4 " comment had bugger all to do with Australia :doh:

I "assumed" everyone commenting was Australian :banghead


Not a total loss though. I did find quite a bit of useful info from all the sources provided .

Don

Re: Australian tank squadrons
 

Don,
Read your last and understand the info, and your frustration from a different prospective. This 1968 level is getting more solid at this end also. Just opened up an email from Mr. David McGill ADF Australian War Memorial Museum Research Center and he can't find any info post 1968 concerning a 4 tank troop. Referred me to the ADF Calvary and Armor Museum which I've already contacted and am awaiting a response from as well along with Mick. Again email trail is available at anytime. No response needed, will keep you posted as info gets to me.
Pat

Re: Australian tank squadrons
 

Don,
Again no response needed. Tried to coax a response from Mick and the CAV.&ARM. Museum last weekend with a "status" email, no luck so far. Just sent an inquiry to THE ROYAL TANK REGIMENT ASSOCIATION at
http://www.royaltankregiment.com/en-GB/default.aspx , will wait and see what happens. As a sidebar, will provide another list this weekend not much longer then the last to include 2 MBT items, 1 armament vs game issue for an APC and 2 or 3 others not in the game but am still sorting through when fielded.
Need some sleep, have a great day!
Pat

Re: Australian tank squadrons
 

No, need. I got all the info I needed from that first website to fix the problems in the OOB. Two things were wrong, now corrected.


Don

Re: Australian tank squadrons
 

Don,
Understand last, just thought I'd send this along for FYI and anyone that might want it. The attachments (docs) illustrate this and are current as of 9 Jan. The "GB" in the addy just didn't connect with me earlier this morning:doh:! Can post "docs" for any who might want it for their own game modeling.
Pat

Armoured Regiment‏
From: Regimental Secretary RHQ RTR (regtlsec@royaltankregiment.org)
Sent: Fri 1/22/10 3:45 AM
To: patrickjconklin@
3 attachments | Download all attachments (265.8 KB)
image003.jpg (3.8 KB), 20090107_...doc (137.5 KB), 20090107-...doc (124.5 KB)


Patrick,

An Armoured Regiment in the British Army is made up of 3 Challenger 2 Squadrons of 14 tanks each 4 troops of 3 plus 2 in SHQ.

Also a Medium Armour Squadron of 14 Scimitar Recce Vehicles also 4 Troops of 3 and 2 in SHQ.

Please see attached for ORBAT.



Fear Naught



Colin Hepburn

Major (Retd)

Regimental Secretary

01929 403331 Civilian

94374 3331 Military

Re: Australian tank squadrons
 

This was the Thread I was thinking about it does confirm the order of 59 M1A1 tanks and support units from an email recieved by Mr. Mick Martin. Answers will be posted to TDRs Thread.

Regards,
Pat

Re: Australian tank squadrons
 

Small note and your choice on how you use it:


2007 doctrine documents:

Sqn Structure

Sqn HQ
- 2 x M1A1
- 2 x M113 AS3 or AS4 APC

Sqn Trp x 3
- 4 x M1A1

A slight varience is

Sqn HQ
- 2 x M1A1
- 2 x M113 AS 3 or AS4 APC
- 1 x M113 AS 3 or AS4 ACP

Sqn Trp x 3
- 4 x M1A1

Earlier documentation ( Leopard based units)
I don’t have the date on this document about 2004

Sqn Structure

Sqn HQ
- 2 x Leopard AS1
- 2 x M113 AS3 or AS4 APC

Sqn Trp x 4
- 3 x Leopard AS1

Re: Australian tank squadrons
 

Just to add to your complete confusion on the Australian Tank Sqn structures over time.

Now these are based on official doctrine structures. Ref dates where I have them.



Official doctrine structure re Armour Sqn,

Doc dated 1970,
Sqn Hq
- 2 x MBT (Centurion)
- 2 x APC (read M113)
- 1 x LRV (read M113)
Sqn Tp x 4
- 4 x MBT


Doc dated 1971,
Sqn Hq
- 2 x MBT (Centurion)
- 2 x LRV (read M113)
Sqn Tp x 4
- 4 x MBT


Doc dated 1975,
Sqn Hq
- 2 x MBT (Centurion)
- 2 x LRV (read M113)
Sqn Tp x 4
- 4 x MBT


Doc dated 1981,
Sqn Hq
- 2 x MBT (Centurion)
- 2 x LRV (read M113)
Sqn Tp x 4
- 3 x MBT


Doc dated 1984,
Sqn Hq
- 2 x MBT (Centurion)
- 2 x LRV (read M113)
Sqn Tp x 4
- 3 x MBT


Doc dated 1996
Sqn Hq
- 2 x MBT (Centurion)
- 2 x LRV (read M113)
Sqn Tp x 4
- 3 x MBT


documentation (Leopard based units). I don’t have the date on this document about 2004

Sqn Structure

Sqn HQ
- 2 x Leopard AS1
- 2 x M113 AS3 or AS4 APC
Sqn Trp x 4
- 3 x Leopard AS1

2007 doctrine documents:

Sqn Structure

Sqn HQ
- 2 x M1A1
- 2 x M113 AS3 or AS4 APC
Sqn Trp x 3
- 4 x M1A1

A slight varience is (second source)

Sqn HQ
- 2 x M1A1
- 2 x M113 AS 3 or AS4 APC
- 1 x M113 AS 3 or AS4 ACP
Sqn Trp x 3
- 4 x M1A1