Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

Af far as I understand, quite risky combination, but having access to fortunetellers using which I like to compensate it, I want to understand how exactly risky it is.

What is better , misfortune 2/death 3, or misfortune 3 /death 2 (if we take to account only risks of such events as plague, etc)

In one of tests with M3D3 I've got Palgue(halved population) in home province 1st turn, which is not what I really liked.

Is there some events which are possible only on Death 3?
Or this plague event could happen with luck3Grouth3 as well?

Is there any list of these events and conditions, switching probability of event on?

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

Play around with it. I'm not sure what the chances are, but way, way, way more often than you want to throw a game you'll get a terrible pop loss event within the first few turns on your capital. What does that phrase man? 25%? I'm don't know exactly, but way higher than I'd bet on something important.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

there is always a better way to get 240 points than M3D3

and no, the plague event is specific to the death scale, it cannot happen with growth (however another event, ancient presence, which kills pop can happen with growth)

I swear I once saw a great thread enumerating these events, but I've never been able to find it since. I do remember that there is a pretty good set of events for death-luck-magic (dying princes, and plagues yielding death gems, well that latter one might by death-misfortune-magic, but could be good for some...)

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

Maybe this?

http://www.freewebs.com/dominions2/events.html

Mis-2 Death-3 is really bad because plague frequency becomes common, and you're getting quite a few bad events. Mis-3 Death-2 is also bad, because you get a lot of bad events, many of which are the plague event. I don't like Mis-3 in general, because you're getting more events and they are pretty much all bad.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

Thanks, vbf. Just found it. I understand all this, about bad events diring bad luck :). I was more interested in trying to compensate with fortunte tellers something, while avoid gaime-ruining events like

A plague has struck the land. Empty cabins and rotting corpses litter the landscape. Half the population of the province has died. (Rare if Death 1 and common if Death 3).

The question now is what's the differese between "common" and "rare", if difference in MF2 and MF3 will add less probability of plague then MF2/D3 ?

P.S. I'm also really in love with luck3, but it's boring to use the same start every time, just want to try to combine together several ideas to have some fun and some diversity.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

Vfb, you are my hero. I've been trying to refind that forever.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

that being said - I think the events were reworked under dom 3 - at least I know there are some events I have never seen under dom 3.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

After reviewing the list, it looks like the game is quite limiting in experinments because during first turns, if you have death3 - you can get this plague and that's end of game. If you have at least death2 - you can have another event, which kills 1/5 population, which is also devastating, especially if you get it 2 times. There is no time t do some prevention.
So, I found Death 2/3 unusable. It would be much more balance if some extremal events (good or bad) were more rare first months, especially when it goes on your capital.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

Its possible to take D3 if you take L3, but I wouldn't do it, and there's very few nations that could consider D3 under ANY circumstances.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

the only way you can start with high D and high Mf is if you have an awake pretender who has powerful fortune telling. And you plan on just letting them sit in your capital. Ie, its really not worth it.

(Lady of Luck, Jade Emperor, and Oracle - all under CBM - are the ones that come to mind).

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

Nah, I take D3 all the time. So long as you don't take misfortune, you just have to play aggressively to stay ahead of it. It certainly can bite you if you stall, but it can sometimes be the best way to get the points you need.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...fortune+teller

Try here.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

I didn't mean D3 by itself was unplayably bad, i meant the union of high D and high Mf is unplayably bad.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

And of course LA Ermor should always take D3, so it is not unplayable - just very situational.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

All combinations but missfortune/death is playable. if you are certain you want both try death 2 missfortune 2.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

I'd argue Turmoil+Mf is probably unplayably bad.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

EA Pangaea can not only play them but find them useful beyond the extra pretender points.
Some very specific strategy but can be useful as a surprise.

A map large enough to keep moving can be helpful to some also.

That is a great list. It should be added to the wiki and then updated.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

Which, Turmoil + Misfortune or Misfortune + Death?

I suggest you try either in an MP game before you say anyone can survive with those combinations. EA Pan never takes Mf with Turmoil, its suicide.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

Well I have played it in some MPs but mostly in Solo.

Misfortune and Death is rough but EA and MA Pangaea have strategies which do not rely on gold.
The heavy nature magic offsets lack of supplies fairly well.

Turmoil and Misfortune works better. You can take Growth which is a plus to carrion strategies altho not so much that I cant do without it. And Turmoil is a plus in generating maenads which is so effective as to be called an exploit and banned in some games.

Both the Lord of the Wild and the Carrion Dragon for Pangaea have low dominion so if you dont add to that and play on large maps you can stay ahead of your dominion for creating frontline forces.

You can add chaos to both since you can play low-armor strategies with Pangaea. There are also other nations which offer balances to these scales along with stealth or low-resource armies.

Maybe you meant something like "IMHO not recommended in mp games with small or medium maps" rather than unplayable. I didnt see where the OP was asking about specific game settings. Im kindof going by "ideas to have some fun and some diversity" more than just what would be a winning mp strategy.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

Gandalf, knowing your SP preference for truly huge maps, I'm curious what you consider "small or medium maps"? In terms of total provinces or provinces/nation.

That aside, my understanding is that the biggest danger with either M3D3 or M3T3 is not the long term effects but the good chance of a crippling event (plague, pop-loss, strong unrest) in your capital in the first few turns. I suppose a large map would give you more time to try to recover from that and an SC pretender would let you make some gains anyway.

Even in the long run, playing T3L3, I've had gold problems with Pangaea. Pan are expensive.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

Turmoil + Misfortune sounds like a high probability of getting sieged by 100 barbarians or something turn 2, and not being able to do anything the rest of the game because you're stuck in your fort with insufficient forces and can't buy anything. Followed shortly by your lab getting destroyed so you can't do research, and your temple not too long after. Ie, unplayable. I've even seen it happen to the AI in SP games! Mf is risky enough without adding turmoil to it!

Mf3D3 sounds like perpetual plague events. Pretty sure no one can survive very long after 2-3 capital plagues in year 1, and I've seen that happen with scales that weren't quite that bad.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

The game defines small, medium, large as 10, 15, 20 per player (altho that is a really old definition) but for most discussions here Im willing to accept those. With a 1 or 2 dominion pretender you can operate for awhile outside of your dominion for purchasing new units for your armies.

And yes, in such games the capital population can get dropped fast. Ive had some games wipe me out quick but not "high probability". I usually manage to get outside of the capital province.

Both of the thematic pretenders appear to be for pushing a non-gold strategy. But yes, Pans are the biggest problem with that. Sometimes you have to stop an army at a high pop province to partol/high-tax a turn or two. Pushing a stealth army far to start a new foothold far from home helps also.

Its definitly fun for diversity play Granted Im abit more worn out on regular play than most.
I didnt say it was preferable :) just not unsurvivable.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

How high a probability would you call high for 'catastrophic disaster'. Because even 10% sounds pretty high for a turn 2-3 indie siege of my capital. Even 5% sounds high.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

My math sucks. Doesnt 10% equal 1 in 10 chance? And 5% 1 in 20 chance? How many games would I have to play to have that happen? Isnt that the definition of "high probability"? If Im looking for a game variant to play around with then having it be playable in 9 out of 10 games seems ok. Especially for something that will happen quickly if at all so that I can just start another (in solo play). Even in MP if its usable with other options and can be a surprise tactic then having it work or fail soon in the game would be a plus so that you can move on to another game.

And as an example Im not sure that indie seige is a good example for these. Both carrion and maenad can eventually break free of an indie siege. Especially since both those gods are fairly helpful in such a combat. Still not preferable, but playable.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

Fair enough. I think most advice given here covers all three (10,15,20).
Nor do I see that the size changes the early strategy drastically here.
Distance between capitals likely only changes by a province or two for each step. That slows rushes, but only by a few turns.
Since early expansion tends to speed up quickly as everyone sends more expansion groups out, the large game only gives you a few more turns before indies are gobbled.

You may break out of the indy siege or recover from unrest and be ready to start growing again, but by that time there's going to be a lot less to grow into.

It may be recoverable in SP, but I've got my doubts in MP. Quit & start over is fine in SP, but it seems kind of obnoxious in MP. That's more of a problem with the way Luck/Misfortune works though, since it becomes less and less important throughout the game. If you survive the early game without a catastrophe you've essentially got free points. If you don't, Oh well, just start again.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

High is a relative term. When you're talking about absolutely catastrophic events, the bar on high is pretty low.

For example, when the CERN super-collider was about to be turned on, what P(CERN creates a mini-blackhole that consumes the world) would have been too high to actually turn it on? How likely is too likely for absolutely catastrophic disaster?

Now, sure, its only a game, but I like to actually get to play the games I start. That its only a game increases my threshold for catastrophic failure tolerance, probably by a couple orders of magnitude, but as the acceptable P for the CERN scenario is somewhere in the 10^-6 or smaller range, many orders of magnitude larger is still pretty small.

So yes, i'd call 5% chance of catastrophic failure 'high', even in a game.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

Just to be clear, CERN is a wonderful device, and radiation for outerspace often hits the Earth with more power than it can drive, and likely cause these black holes that we want to study. The Earth must simply be more stable, and these black holes less so. The physics, further, follow, because black holes are actually less massive than the star they came from and lose energy and mass as they move through space...

Anyway, I often get the awful event of plague on my first turn with turmoil, misfortune, death.

I find it a challenge to be dealt with. This dominion is only bad in the begining, it is and end game dominion that protects you and attacks your opponents. Select magic to summon things with all the paths, and expect to do a lot of gem prospecting. I have won with this in two player, but it is a bit different with more than one opponent. (You don't need his provinces, for instance, you just need to make sure he doesn't enjoy them, by pillaging them, for instance, more like some end games end up).

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

It seems to me that after the latest patch with the changes to horrormarking and insanity .. it .. seems...
that the incidence of really horrible events in the first 5 turns or so has dropped a lot.

any one else note that as well?>

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

No.
But I haven't played with awful scales in the latest version that much ...

Just wanted to mention, than misfortune-3 gives you zero chance to get national heros, what can really detract from the fun with some nations ;)

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

Nah, you get plenty of "neutral" events too like stealing a witch's gems. The biggest factor IMHO is game scale, since the event cap doesn't scale with empire size. Misfortune-3 is fine once you have 40+ provinces but it's really painful when you have 9 provinces.

-Max

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

Heh. "On Death Ground, fight." Yes, that is kind of fun sometimes.

Obviously if you're anticipating a lot of plague events it becomes a lot more desirable to overtax.

-Max

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

And pillage. You need to plan on summoning units ASAP and then continuing to do so throughout the game. Sort of like blood, only you want to use up provinces in the most effective way, rather than attempting to keep them as long as possible. If you think killing off the population of one for a castle seems like it could be OK, its seems like an even better idea if you have D and MF.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

Hmmmm... if you used the points to pump magic into a pretender as a summoning-factory I wonder if it would help.

What summoning spells give bonuses for the number of points in that magic?

Better yet if it can be overlapped with a nation that can use Blesses well.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

It works OK with MA Abysia, because they don't get docked income and a Warlock can practically find blood slaves in an empty province. Not that you have to hunt in empty ones, or even one with <5k pop, but with growth scales the number of >5k increases whereas it goes down with death scales.

No matter, you used up those points on creation so that you could summon max demon knights each time to get you new provinces, as well as giving reinvigorate to your mages, and eventually cast weapons of sharpness and amry of lead on your devils. Something like that?

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

What do you mean a warlock can find blood slaves in an empty province? Do they ignore the population check?

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

Nah, it was a jest, refering to their ability finding blood slaves due to their 3B.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

Warlocks cannot find slaves in an empty province any better than anyone else.

there are three checks to pass:

roughly by memory they are:

1. 40% * blood level to find slaves.
2. Pop/5000 % that it worked.
3. Unrest / 4 chance to for them to say.. screw you.

So, in an empty province warlocks fail just like anyone else does. Warlocks are just good blood hunters because they always pass the first test.

also shows why you don't give them SDR's.

Re: Misfortune 3 Death 3 scale
 

They get an extra slave per hunt with the SDR. SDR only costs 5 or 3 with hammer, so, of course you give them a SDR, have some 1B dude that churn them out.

And, actually, the Fountain of Blood CBM, finds 3/turn in an empty province.