OT: Noob vs Newbie, etc
 

Tangent warning:

I find this an hilarious quibble, considering 'n00b' is simply 'newbie' spelled in 1337-speak (correctly pronounced as two syllables, n00-b), and the term 'newbie' i think is actually backformed from n00b, at least in its internet use. Arguing one is derogatory and the other isn't is like arguing something spelled in cyrillic is derogatory but when its spelled with roman characters it isn't. Its just a different alphabet. noob is of course just an alternate rendering of n00b in the standard roman alphabet.

All of n00b, noob, and newbie can have derogatory connotations depending on the group, but they're simply the same word spelled in different alphabets. Its just a strange claim that only a subset of them is derogatory.

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

actually it's pretty different. a newbie is simply a new player. a noob on the other hand doesn't neccessarily have to be a new player, he's more of a "know it all" type who actually doesn't know anything. but because of that he doesn't listen to people who try to help him, via advise, teaching, pointing his mistakes, etc.

so basically a newbie is the "good" type of new player while a "noob", or "n00b" if you wish, is the "bad" type. for example, in Sombre's "how bad is bad" thread, the people he refers to are noobs instead of simply newbies.

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

Not stranger than many mainstream derogatory terms, if you look at them linguistically. They're often just shortened slang versions of more acceptable terms.

Usage determines whether something is derogatory, not the derivation of the word.

I also doubt that newbie is backformed from n00b. Newbie dates back well before 1337-speak.

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

A n00b is just a new-comer (not necessarily player, there are other contexts than games).

I don't find 'n00b' any more derogatory than 'newbie'. Its an alternate spelling of the same word, using a different alphabet. ('noob' is certainly a backformation from the 1337).

I've seen 'newbie' used derogatorily. I've seen n00b used just to mean someone was new with no derogatory connotations. You may choose to be offended by it, but that doesn't make that spelling derogatory on face. I would argue that most communities in which 'n00b' is derogatory, 'newbie' is also derogatory. (The perception of n00bishness being poor is fostered by communities which value 1337ness as the pinnacle of achievement. When being skilled/elite/1337 is the absolute highest value, its opposite will be the lowest value, and hence derogatory).

@thejeff:
Ok, I'd believe it, I just never heard/saw it until after I'd been online, and certainly saw n00b first. (Damn i've been online a long time...)

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

well Squirrelloid, the fact that you don't realize that there is a difference beyond mere "spelling" between the 2 terms is your problem. it doesn't make the difference any less real... instead of arguing about it you should perhaps try to understand it.

let me give you another example, a lot less "politically correct". the N word is considered very offensive. however the original term, with the same spelling, simply meant "black" in Latin. however nowadays its usage is only in an offensive manner. a lot of people don't know Latin, and were not aware that it was actually a real word, however their unawareness doesn't make it any less truthful...

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

First of all, you might want to try actually giving a true example. The 'N word' might be derived from latin 'niger', but its not the same word. Even if it were, you're now talking about a word in english and a word in a different language. n00b is not from a different language, its an alternate spelling of a word in the same language. It'd be like saying 'gray' is offensive but 'grey' is not.

Second, how is your understanding of the word any better than mine? I've seen its use in a multitude of communities over 19 years, and its varied from being an insult to just a general descriptor of skill/familiarity (as has 'newbie' and other spellings, I can't actually think of a community I've been part of that has thought 'newbie' was anything other than an alternate spelling).

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

Actually, I'll have to retract the history slightly. Newbie and n00b probably came into online use fairly close to the same time, though newbie has offline roots, but came into much more common use on Usenet. I stand by my assumption that n00b came from newbie, not the other way around, mostly because that derivation is straightforward and I can't even imagine where n00b would have come from if not from newbie.

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

Well, given the existence of offline antecedents, I will certainly agree n00b came from newbie. I am agnostic at this point as to which was used first online.

If not for the offline sources for newbie (which I hadn't been familiar with), I could imagine n00b being an original construction in 1337 for 'new person'. I mean, its not like original 1337 constructions are unknown ('boxen').

But that n00b is obviously from newbie doesn't mean its online presence didn't originate with the 1337 spelling, since it seems to formerly have been restricted to military jargon (and not even popularized military jargon like asap, or at least I would have thought I'd have encountered it in that case). Its not like the programming community (from which the 1337 community developed) didn't have a history of appropriating military slang (see fubar -> foobar).

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

And the point of this discussion is....?

Lets try not to clog the thread please.

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

A basic tenant of anything diplomatic or customer service related is that only those that the term is applied to can say whether or not its offensive. It never really works for people outside of that group to say "you should not be offended by this term". Particularly when the argument is "its just a derivative of" Pick any term for any group thru history if you need examples. Better yet if its one that applies to you. A person can choose to laugh at PC (politically correct) but there is a reason that such thinking exists and gets used. Either choose to honor the request, or dont. But finding it hilarious isnt going to achieve the purpose desired here.

Of course there is always a situation where a person or group proudly takes on a term. But even they usually admit that they have taken a term usually used or taken harshly and owned it. I can think of at least 3 that apply to me in that category.

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

Considering this is a label that everyone has at one point and later doesn't have, its really a community standard thing more than something that gets permanently applied to some subset of the community. Eventually all n00bs cease being n00bs (at least in theory) or leave the community.

Its like being a freshman. Everyone was one once, so the current freshmen can't really justifiably complain about the term.

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

I think that "you are a newbie" is different than "you are a n00b".
I cant think of a similar example using the word "freshman".

In fact the most PC action by the OP would probably be "new player"

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

And I happen to think you're wrong, so we're back to a language debate.

The parallel for what you think the distinction is would be 'frosh'. However, that is actually a different word rather than a different spelling, and I can't think of a different spelling of the word 'freshman' in english.

(not that I have any problems with 'frosh', having been one once upon a time. The people who used the term derogatively would have used any other term with the same vocal tones to imply denegration).

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

Blackguard is actually right. Newb and noob have different connotations in most online gaming worlds. However, I don't think that was the intention of rdonj. In fact, oone can clearly tell, he had no difference in mind from nature of post so I think it's better to just move on rather than eat up three pages on that discussion alone.

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

w3rd

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

only newbies can use the word n00b, everyone else has to use the word newbie.

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

first of all the N word is the same word as the 1 in Latin. second of all the English language has its roots within Latin, so saying it's a different language isn't entirely correct. third of all the "invention" of the N word came from the Latin language, like many other English words, so I really don't understand why you claim it's a "bad example".

how is it better you ask? well, lets see... there is a second meaning, that's a fact. you haven't come across it, and you decide that this meaning doesn't exist. it reminds me of the cliche that you don't believe anything you don't see with your own eyes, and I hope I don't need to tell you how foolish and unrealistic that cliche is... so why is my definition better? because I'm not ignoring the context in which the term is used, unlike what you seem to be doing... but hey, I don't blame you, too many people seem to be unaware of this differentiation thus think it doesn't exist, while the people those terms are used on do feel insulted by the wrong usage of the term, just like blacks are offended by the N word despite it simply meaning the color black...

I never said, and I'm sorry if it came out like that, that rdonj meant to use the term noob in its offensive manner. I think that just like Squirrelloid, he was unaware of it, which is why I wanted to correct him in this thread, so he can refrain from using offensive term without meaning to use it that way.

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

:rolleyes:

1) Its not the same word. The spelling is different to start with, and the meanings are different. It does not simply mean 'black' in english, as in the color. The english slang word is certainly derived from the latin word, but one word arising from another in etymology is different from them being the same thing.
2) Latin is a different language than english. It has different rules on grammar. It has a different vocabulary. This isn't even disputable.
3) Just because a number of words came to English from Latin does not make them the same language. Otherwise English would also be the same language as German, Swedish, Spanish, French, various Native American tongues, and so on. Which would make all those languages the same language (law of identity). As this is clearly false, so is your claim.
4) My point has been and still is that 'Newbie' and 'N00b' are alternate spellings of the same exact word. Not derived from the same word - they are the same word. 'Newbie' also gets spelled as 'Newbee' - it doesn't have a well-defined spelling, because its a slang term. When spoken they are pronounced identically, the spellings are merely different renderings of the same phonemes by people rendering a slang term in text. Different spellings do not make them different words. Its like the alternate renderings Beijing and Peking for the Chinese city - they're the same word, just different spellings based on different romanizations (alphabet-sound associations) of the chinese characters.

[/quote]

The N word has never meant the color black in english. This is why your example was and continues to be bad.

You are ignoring the historical context in which the spelling developed on the internet, possibly because you were not online anywhere near the time (most people weren't). You are ignoring the context in which both spellings are used derogatorily. (I'd post some data, but my google search terms would be censored by the forums... Needless to say 'newbie' seems to get as much venomous treatment as 'n00b'). And you are ignoring the context of this community in which neither spelling is thrown around in a derogatory manner generally, nor was it used so in the OP.

Some communities may have arbitrarily assigned different meanings to one spelling or another. This is not those communities. There exist other communities where both or neither are considered derogatory. The point still stands they are the same word, and that neither has particularly derogatory connotations in this community.

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

Gandalf already said it best,

Also Squirrel, they are clearly two separate words. Ask anyone to speak the two words aloud and I would happily wager the vast majority will make noob a monosyllable. Even prime time (American) television has uttered the word noob, as a single syllable, and in a context more derogatory than complimentary. Whether or not they used to be synonyms or which spawned the other is only anachronism. Their modern usage and meaning have evolved well beyond their 1990s origins.

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

KILL ALL THE PWNER PEOPLE

*then we be free*

KILL ALL THE PWNER PEOPLE

*then we be free*

BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY

*word*

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

Actually the argument that "this is technically true and therefore should not bother you" is one facet of what I think might be a problem with the whole project. There is a reason that techs and experts dont do customer support. CS people act as a buffer in both directions. Clarifying and translating user questions into clearer technical terms, getting the answer from an expert, then translating the techs answer into user language. Often expletives are removed and replaced with PC terms (in both directions). You know what they say "Those who can, do. And those who can't, teach." Altho sometimes its added "Because those who can do, can't teach.".

We have some here who can do both but not as many as think they can. Some who know the answers are just generally rotten at giving those answers. Particularly to new players. This 3-party method of customer support tends to happen automatically in open forums like IRC or this forum. In My Humble Opinion Im not sure that many direct expert-2-newplayer conversations will leave the new player with the best impression of our community anymore than customer service with no experts would.

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

I wonder what tag words is required to have a mod come and clean this thread up of all this crap in the last two pages. And just edit the damn "noob" part into "newbie" so we don't have to deal with the rest of this drivel.

Sorry, misread GP.

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

CRACK?!? Im saying that IRC is the best place for things like this. To get answers, and explanations. How did you take that as a crack? Why is it that everytime I recommend IRC its heard as sarcasm? personal tendency?

And as far as the drivel, its up to the OP to decide on something and close that part of the conversation. Until he comments, he might be interested.

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

Well, I object to that on principle.

I don't want some insane political correctness to control our speech here to the extent that we cannot use common gaming forum/community terms such as 'noob'. Or 'troll'.

Re: Dominions New Player MP Helpdesk
 

Every post in this stupid digression should be deleted, including this one.

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

Whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down here people. I leave you guys alone for a few hours and get one new applicant and page upon page of discussion of a single word I used in the OP? This is ridiculous guys, calm down. I'm going to give an answer and then I want that discussion to stop. Also I will ask to have the discussion deleted.

Kissblade is 100% correct, I had no intention of insulting anyone by use of the word noob. My experience on this forum (and I tend to find the term noob and all other variations of said word to have different meanings depending on the community) has been that noob is not a dirty word. I have played and admined in numerous "noob friendly" games, some of them started by noobs. No one here has ever cared before, and we always, ALWAYS use the term noob when talking about new players here, and I can't say I recall it as ever having been used in a derogatory way before. However, to avoid further controversy I am changing the title of the thread and will remove all mention of the word "noob" from my opening post. I will not, however, try to prevent its use at any other point in this thread or in conversations held by CSRs. Now please, for the sake of the project stop cluttering up this thread with nonsense.



To Blackguard's original post: Thank you for choosing the Dominions New Player MP Helpdesk! Please feel free to continue using IRC as a place to get advice, or contact one of our helpdesk personnel on the forum by pm, or ask for their email if needed (will be needed to send turns, obviously). I'm not sure you're going to personally benefit a whole lot from the program since you're already on IRC anyway, but we will see what you can do. Remember that it is your place as the customer to choose which CSR to speak to at any given moment.



Gandalf: This is a really weird argument. First off, IRC is the best place to go to get dominions advice, period. And all the people that have joined so far already spend lots of time on IRC, and are some of the primary advice-givers. Especially sombre and squirrelloid, who ironically are the exact people you're talking about as being bad CSRs. So since these are the people who would be giving advice anyway, I can't see how this in any way hurts.

Secondly, I would hardly describe the current list of helpdesk people as being filled with experts. Most of us are mid-level players with varying levels of experience. What we are, is a generally capable bunch of players who are offering to help new players learn the ropes. And, my hope is, explain the whys of things more than most guides and help does at present.



Helpdesk personnel: On a different note, I have been informed that it is unlikely at this point that the thread will be stickied. In an effort to help keep this thread visible, please consider adding a link to it in your signature. Thank you.

Re: Dominions Noob MP Helpdesk
 

Isnt that what I said? Well I said IRC and this forum. But I did say IRC.

Yes I noticed that also. I have always considered IRC to be the mp players help desk. And even solo players.

Where did you get that from? Moderators, I did not violate the NAP. Nowhere did I target anyone.

I could add it to my links page on Dom3minons

Re: Dominions New Player MP Helpdesk
 

I just thought that it was funny you saying that some of the CSRs would be bad people to have giving advice, when they're the main advice givers on IRC already, which we both agree is the best place to get advice ;). The forum is fine also, but if you really want specific advice about a game, IRC tends to be much better. And it is no secret that sombre is a grumpy old man, and squirrelloid aggressively verbose :). The point of this thread is mostly to make in depth useful advice more available to non IRC-goers, and give people more options.

As for a link on your dom3minions page, I think that is a splendid idea.

Re: Dominions New Player MP Helpdesk
 

I didnt say that! I made NO reference to ANYONE who has already signed up. Im very sorry if anyone took it that way.

Edit: By "We have some here" I truly meant the forum in general. NOT to people in this thread. I can see how that might have been taken that way and I HIGHLY apologize. I think I have shown in the past that I would be the LAST person to cast aspersions on someones ability to answer peoples questions.

OT: Noob vs Newbie, etc
 

Attempting to clean up the help desk thread.
Please don't clutter. :)

Re: Dominions New Player MP Helpdesk
 

Well, in that case the initial text I quoted from you was very vague on the specifics of your meaning. But okay, I'm glad we've cleared that up.

Re: OT: Noob vs Newbie, etc
 

this is the lamest thread i have ever seen on these forums.

Re: OT: Noob vs Newbie, etc
 

What, more than MachineGunJoeTurbo's interminable gibberings about how crossbows were the Second Coming?

Re: OT: Noob vs Newbie, etc
 

You guys are so nerdy you make regular nerds look like Fonzie.

Re: OT: Noob vs Newbie, etc
 

Cool! Thanks Gregstrom. I finally read this silly thread and realized how I got sucked into resurrecting the crossbow thread.

This is a VERY silly thread. But hey, that's fine with me. It all adds up to more posts to get me to .... well maybe it's lieutenant. But I really really care.