Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

I wanted to correct a widely held misconception about how to play Shinuyama. Seems most everybody masses up a bunch of Dai Bokemono archers and fires from the back row to leverage those nice long bows and impressive melee when the enemy finally closes. Sure, this can be effective enough but it is so inefficient it’s amazing to me how often I see it. Dai Bokemono have a small but important niche, but they should really not be your goto line troops. Let’s see how this nation handles when we get rid of the ridiculous notion that it’s still Yomi with big heavy guys and instead play it like the goblin king with the big guys relegated to special forces. Think ant hill, goblin mobs crawling all over everything are the way to go.

Alright, let’s compare Dai Bokemono to the smaller guys. You get 3.3 of the 9 gold guys for the gold cost of 1 Dai Bokemono. Of course if you’re resource constrained the difference is much more drastic, but let’s just look at gold for the moment. As far as putting arrows in the air 3.3 short bow arrows are incredibly more effective than one long bow, and with a nation that so obviously wants to go to flaming arrows the difference is staggering. On top of this the bakemono archer comes in a modestly armored variant (surprisingly resilient to modest enemy archer fire due to their armor + size) or a stealthy variety. Stealthy archers *rock*…having 80 archers unexpectedly decloak is a serious tide turner when your opponent didn’t realize he needed to deploy archer screens. As far as using Dai Bokemono to fire arrows when you really expect them to end up in melee – this seldom works out well when you don’t have an overwhelming number advantage as a some of your front line archers run up to fight melee and many more fire resulting in a very unfavorable ratio of friendly to hostile in melee at any given point. Yeah it can work…but very rarely when you didn’t have enough troops to win more effectively by other means.

What about melee though? Those Dai Bokemono are tough! I’ve seen them kick arse on several occasions! Yeah, I’m not gonna argue they’re not tough. I will argue they’re not nearly as tough for general use as what should be the goto guy on your roster. That bakemono warrior must have a horrible PR guy because I have never, ever seen anybody really leveraging him (not to say nobody ever has, just that I’ve never seen it and none of the other guides really mention them). Dai Bokemono certainly have their niche, but for general use the bokemono warrior mops the floor with them because of one magic number on their character sheet. That glorious, glorious size one combined with a fairly respectable offense. These are your warrior ants! In the left corner lets put 20 Dai Bakemono. In the right corner we’ll put 66 bakemono warriors in a head to head fight. Now first off I want to point out that this is an even matchup on the gold cost, but those Dai Bokemono cost 500 resources to mass up while the warriors cost almost half that at 330.

I’d like to preface this by saying high hitpoint, high protection targets is exactly the niche you’d want to use Dai Bokemono against so this is a bit of a worst case scenario for the warriors (as in it only gets better from here). Roughly, each block of 2 Dai Bokemono is going to be squared up against a block of 6 warriors. With a nice 13 attack the Dais are gonna hit around 62% of the time and with a walloping amount of damage are generally gonna kill a warrior when the hit lands. The warriors though, also have a good attack and because of the mobbing will hit much more often (the first guy to attack will hit 62% of the time - and it climbs rapidly from there). A very respectable 15 damage with the wakasashi compares to the Dai Bokemono’s 16 protection to mean you’re doing something pretty close to 0 AN damage. Because of the way open ended die rolls getting hit by 3+ hits in this range means there’d a good chance the big guys are going down after a round or two. This is especially true because of the random distribution of how the attacks land – worst/best case scenario is that each Dai Bakemono fight off 3 attacks, but there are gonna be some blocks where 1 guy gets all 6 attacks and goes down fast. This is an important distinction to remember, the chaos of battle is lumpy so the worst case for the warriors is 2 dead out of 6 but just 1 Dai Bokemono going down is a 50% loss for that block…and there’s a chance with those open ended dice that both may drop. This is a big part of the reason being size 1 is such a big deal – the Dai Bokemono just can’t chew through the warriors fast enough before they go down - it doesn't matter if they get 'lucky' and do 50 damage to the warrior they hit but when the warrior gets a lucky die roll it makes a huge difference. Keep swatting those ants, there are always more.

Now, consider fighting somebody with a bit less formidable protection and damage outlay (like, say…most units in the game). The warriors have 11 body protection and 11 hitpoints which means they’ve got a pretty good chance at living through one or two hits from most units. Those little size 1 guys mob all over the place so it’s just fairly hard to hit any individual one multiple times. On the offensive side that 13 attack (which racks up stars pretty quick) mounts up incredibly fast with the mob and you’ll be amazed at how fast they chew up high defense troops, even W blessed ones. Rember what I was saying before, there are gonna be some blocks where 1 of those vans (or whatever) gets attacked by 6 guys with a 13 attack so they start going down before they can finish saying “OH SH-!”.

What really makes the comparison between Dai Bakemono and the warriors night and day though is that you’ll have your first two goto spells easily available by the time you have to do any fighting against real troops. Dai Bakemono wouldn’t mind a strength of giant and legions of steel, but these are massive force multipliers for the warriors - bumping them up into the “several hits to kill” for defense (unless they get hit in the head) and “good chance for a 1 hit kill” on offense with 19 damage. Consider the above matchup when it takes close to twice as many hits to kill the warriors while they’re now hitting for the equivalent of 3 AN damage. They’re so densely packed that a single casting can cover a hundred of them. Number crunching aside just try a mob of these guys along with these early starter spells and you’ll never go back to Dai Bakemono…its really quite impressive. Really though, they’re plenty effective at clearing indies and most PD with no mage support so don’t feel like you need to route all your initial research into troop herders – let them do their thing with indie commanders while you keep your sorcerers at home getting your research engine started.

Your attrition rate will be greatly improved by nabbing some indies with shields to catch arrows. Really massed archers can be a problem for Shinuyama, and without any air mages the obvious solutions aren’t available. What can often work though is just out archering the enemy. Flaming arrows and ‘fire archers’ out of those decloaking stealth bakemono (or the more heavily armored and archer resistant ones) will give your opponent’s archers more pressing concerns that trying to whittle down your warriors. It also makes a lot of sense to take A on your pretender as arrow fend/wind guide brings you up to another level for the big fights, and later on mass flight is all kinds of tasty as a nasty surprise on those warrior mobs.

It’s a great idea to put up a castle or two with no lab/temple and use them to crank out Shuten-doji. They have 80 leadership so having a bunch of them on hand not only makes shuffling your mobs around much easier, but with a life drain attack and fair hp/protection/defense they actually have a pretty good survivability attacking on the front line alongside your warriors. This is great because they have a rather unique aoe fatigue attack that triggers every round (it doesn’t effect friendly troops) which stacks up amazingly fast when you have a bunch of them close together. Think neifel frost aura type fatigue – bad guys pass out in just a round or two as the ants mob over them…not that your warriors generally leave the front line there that long. They’re leaders to of course, so you can stick some cheap items on them to ratchet them up to the next level. Horns of valor are a rarely used item, but here’s a great niche for them as that standard effect overcomes the one real weakness of the warriors – their low morale! If you’ve got the gems to spare forging a cheap shield like a black steel tower adds a good bit to their survivability…you will eventually have enough hammers that you use E gems for other things!

The next obvious choice for those very tasty sorcerers you get is to pound out the evocation research and lay the smack down…but even better IMO is to nab alt-4. Those mobs of warriors and archers were already plenty scary, but once destruction starts dropping around they turn into real terrors. Depending on what you’re facing it may make sense to go straight evo anyway and lay down some rust mists ahead of the artillery fire, but for my money I just love seeing the skies darken with arrows just as the bad guys are trying to cover their privates with both hands. Acid rain is a great upgrade for this, but you need to get to constr-6 for water bracelets first and you don’t want to wait that long to start bringing the hurt.

One of the great things about using warriors and archers as your mainline troops is your resource requirements drop considerably. There’s really no reason to take production scales (though I wouldn’t go sloth so you can mob properly). Despite the fact that your sorcerers are (very!) old they’re also good D mages so you don’t really need to take growth scales as they’ll rarely get diseased from old age – and take forever to die even when they do. Your sorcerers crank out so many RPs that drain-2 is a hardly noticeable drag for the design points it nets you. You also don’t really need a heck of a lot out of your pretender. It’s pretty easy to fit order-3/luck-3 in here and still have some nice options left. In addition to some A on your pretender you’ll want some E – it helps a lot overcoming the atrocious encumbrance that comes from your sorcerers being older than dirt. No need to go crazy with E9, E4 or E6 will get you what you want much cheaper. A celestial general is an obvious choice that nabs you some nice freespawn, but don’t overlook pumping some E onto a phoenix to get a fairly substantial immortal SC, or a Great Sage for a supercharged initial research (you’ve got a huge amount of low hanging fruit to research and this can turn into a very nasty rush). With a very solid expansion and great scales, powerful research (even without your pretender helping) and stupefyingly powerful combat mages with just a little research your early game should be pretty impressive. You’ll want to get a couple sorcerers out site searching and you’ll see your gem income grow pretty quick. Don’t forget to do a bit of N searching as well, you’ll be needing a modest amount of N gems.

Next relatively low hanging fruit is conj-4 for ghost generals. If you’ve done a bit of site searching you should be sitting on a modest D income by the time you get here, and until pretty late in the game I have a hard time justifying putting many D gems into anything but these guys. For 5D you get a guy who’s like a bane…only ethereal with a fear aura. Oh man, this guy is great – ethereal, fear aura, 0 enc, good hp/protection, chill aura, a free bane blade. This guy would be great if he was just a troop, but he’s also a commander! A single one with a golden shield can clear moderate PD (his fear aura does it, so don’t worry about the fact he’s punching people). You can kit them out more heavily for a wide variety of tasks, or just use them out of the box in small groups for considerable muscle when you need something big chopped up – the overlapping fear and chill aura backing a mean bane blade offense means there’s not much that can hit them enough to overcome their etherealness, armor and hitpoints. These guys also give you an absurd amount of undead/demon leadership, which isn’t that huge a deal but does give you some nice flexibility if you’re in a niche that your national summons are called for. Ao-oni have a frost touch that does fatigue damage and can be a nasty surprise against a thug/SC who wasn’t expecting to need cold resistance (stacks great with your general’s cold aura). Aka-oni and Kuro-oni have 50% fire resistance, so throw down fire ward and field them with some fire elementals if you want to do the same thing with heat. Finally, don’t overlook that all those demons have 100% darkvision which can be just what the doctor ordered sometimes with those nice D mages you’ve got. Not a mainline strategy, but just something to have up your sleeve if it’s appropriate.

There’s so many good things to go for its hard to decide what next, but wooden warriors and then iron bane are a solid choice – as I mentioned earlier it takes some work to hit the same warrior twice when there’s 200 of them mobbing around. This also nets you vitriols which are slow to mass up, but a fairly small number can work wonders against some types of enemies. Fire/winter ward will make your guys extremely resistant to many enemy spells once you add in their decent protection, and their sheer numbers will protect against many others. Weapons of sharpness is a neat destination that speaks for itself. After watching your little pigmies carve up all his expensive stuff some opponents may be thinking tramplers will ruin your day. You can pick up bonds of fire real quick in a pinch, and when you make it to prison of fire a few sorcerers can make a fairly arbitrary amount of big fellas feel like Gulliver. Of course, there’s something to be said for just blasting a wall of magma eruptions in their face as well. Decisions, decisions.

Your pretender can summon Dai Tengu which dramatically improve your flexibility. That A support I mentioned is now spread around a good bit more and you’ve got some fair first strike flying support in the units that come along who fire a single AN lightning bolt (which can be considerable when you’ve go 40 of them). As the game progresses you’ll want to steadily crank out eyes of aiming as you get the opportunity for all those nice evo spells you’re gonna be dropping….including the MOAB banefire that 25% of your sorcerers can drop with no boosters. Slap some boots of the messenger and a skull staff with that eye of aiming though, summon earth power along with your E blessing and then pitty the poor SCs who thought they were gonna stomp on some little goblin warriors as the high precision banefire just doesn’t stop pouring out. You’re gonna want to steadily crank out a bunch of dwarven hammers as you can, because you’re gonna have a good home for as many messenger boots and eyes of aiming as you can lay your grubby little goblin hands on.

You do lack astral magic with below average MR mages, which is a difficulty shared by some other nations and the solution is the same – scrape up what you can and use decoys. Watch for lizards, crystal sorceress (they can do your eyes of aiming to!), sages and in a pinch go for specters. This is an undeniable weakness, but you’ve got so much overwhelming strength in other areas you should be able to work around it. If you get lucky and manage to line up E/S guys (specters can get you here, or possibly your pretender) crystal shields open up fun stuff like petrify. You can also make F/W elemental staffs, I find them a bit too expensive for to use for things like petrify – but they will get you up into earth attacks, which you should steadily build up a battery of along with manifestations.

Shinuyama is also one of the few nations that can both cast and leverage acid storm. This is a spell that take a bit of work, but is well worth it because there is no way to have resistance to it, it deals magic AP damage and destroys armor (the armor destruction carries over often across several battles!). The catch, of course, is that it does the same thing to you so this is not something you’re going to be using along with your mobs of warrior ants. This is gonna be something you cast from a well kitted sorcerer while…for example a few crushers keep the enemy tied up. Or, better yet gargoyles so you can use winged boots and great mobility.

I’d love to say that Dai Oni are nice for the end game – but come on, for the price of a Dai Oni you could get 9 ghost generals and even end game the ghost generals are almost always a better deal. Remember, think ant mob here. You’ve got absurdly good anti SC sorcerers, crowd control aplenty, great melee and plenty of thugs/anti-thugs to work together…this is one of the situations you just really don’t need your own SCs. Roll the army ants over your foes in never ending waves and drown them all in a swarm of recruit anywhere stuff that are easily replicable.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

How about using the Dai bakemono archers as arrow decoys in front of your hordes of small goblins? They should draw fire well regardless if the enemy scripted fire archers, closest or big monsters right? I'm just theorizing, never played Shinuyama.

I really like the guide strategy wise, but I think it is a bit too generic and messy. It will be hard for newbies to use it I think, because you seem to assume a pretty advanced understanding of the game. I would like some more structure and effort put into the readability. And a more concrete description of the nations power curve through the game. I'm saying this because I know you can do it, having read all your other great guides.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

I have to disagree with your premise.

1) Dai-Bakemono are much better for indie expansion. Virtually no casualties mean expansion armies that never need to resupply. Bakemono-sho just won't do that for you.

2) Because dai-bakemono are resource-limited, an early focus on them will free up gold for castles and bakemono sorcerors that you wouldn't have otherwise.

3) By using Dai-Bakemono for expansion you set your opponent up for some amazing sleight of hand in the mid game. Those sneaky bakemono-sho are even better if he's expecting a purely dai-bakemono army. If you use bakemono-sho from the get go he's expecting them to materialize from nowhere.

4) To take advantage of the stealth, you need to either use castle-time hiring national commanders (to get stealth leaders), or get lucky and find an indie stealth leader (the monkey poptype comes to mind).

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So basically I would argue you want Pr3 and to focus on Dai Bakemono early because it makes for a much better early game *and* potentially misdirects your opponent about your army building going into a midgame war. That Pr3 also compounds the O3 income boost you're collecting, giving you yet more cash than otherwise.

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I think you've assembled a strawman in how people use (or at least should use) Dai Bakemono. Why stick them all the way in the back and have them fire. Stick them just out of 2-3 turns move (depending on if you're attacking or defending) with hold and attack - they'll fire a couple times and then charge. Those initial volleys will soften up anything but the hardiest troops in MA before the dai bakemono descend into melee. This certainly works against independents where you'll be hard-pressed to find an indie province that doesn't lose to 20 dai bakemono archers (and weaker indies can be taken with substantially less). This also avoids the problem of firing on yourself.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

I do not really like the idea of using lots of weaker low-HP low morale troops. They will take losses which will slow the initial expansion, they will be slaughtered by archer fire and evocations, and they will rout often. And again - they will be killed in great numbers, which is ok for free chaff like undead or maenads, but bakemono cost money, and eventually they will turn out to be more expensive then Dai Bakemono armies due to high attrition - draining gold which could be used to hire more wonderful Shinuyama mages.

Of course, I am not even very good at MP and did not test this strategy, so I am very possibly wrong, just giving my first thoughts. Anyway, thank you for another interesting guide.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

did you read my guide!?!?

I suggest Celestial General for same reason, and was the first to insist (despite that others laughed for it) that people recruit Shuten-doji and use them interspersed with skelli-spam and/or chaff troops.
"recruit Shuten-doji? no wai you should be recruiting sorcerers every turn" they said. I can already see Squirelloid setting that counter-up with his point that using stealth as Shinuyama requires that you use castle-time to recruit stealth commanders. For the record, I agree with you Baalz, Shinuyama has many great commanders other than Sorcerers, and since Sorcerers are recruit everywhere, there is no reason to not use castle-time recruiting something else occasionally.

You make many good points on Bakemono-sho vs Dai Bakemono.

Also, I think that Shinuyama's ability to pull bait and switch is unmatched because you really don't mind the enemy chasing after the bait, and don't care if the commander being gaurded gets involved in the melee (because that commander is probably a Dai Bakemono capable of holding its own).

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

I would argue there's a time and a place for various commanders. But early I'd say you want the research. You'll note I agree with stealth armies in the mid-game, which is going to necessitate fortress time hiring stealthy commanders, but by then you should have multiple forts and the ability to make leadership boosting items to reduce the amount of fortress disruption. Its not that I'm opposed to hiring things other than mages, just that you need to be acutely aware of tempo, especially as regards research.

I also happen to like the Mujina as an assassin. But i'm not going to hire any year 1.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

Guys, take a second and actually try what I wrote instead of dismissing it out of hand without giving me the benefit of the doubt. Bakemono warriors are not low hitpoint chaff units that die like flies. They have *above average* hitpoints (11) and medium armor (11) with above average defense (11). They have a *lower* attrition rate than those numbers would imply because of their size. They have a further lower attrition rate because their high offense causes enemies to route quickly. I am not talking out of my arse like I don't know what I'm talking about. Just. Go. Try. It. Taking a production neutral scale and going with bokemono warriors you will *crush* the initial expansion that you are able to do with Dai Bokemono and production scales. Just. Try. It. Sure, you're gonna lose some here and there but nowhere near enough to compensate for the extra income you get from a fast expansion and putting your design points to maximize income rather than production. Not even close. As long as you deploy archer screens (good point Fantomen, I should go into more detail I suppose) your attrition rate due to indie/PD archers are negligible and you start having a lot of options to deal with opponent’s archery by the time that gets to be a problem. It’s really appalling how fast the bakemono warriors chew through stuff and how much it takes to stop them even before you start buffing them. Just. Try. It.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

With Pythium I have used just Emerald Guards to expand. The key is to have enough in a pack. There need to be enough to get the job done quickly, because they have 9 encumbrance. Their defense is so high that they won't get hit. Really. And they almost always hit and they do 19 damage. So even tough stuff dies.

They work much better with velites behind them, and they end up with several levels and are excellent mage body guards like that.

People often dismiss how much of an impact 1 point of skill can have on a battle at scale. You notice that certain types of infantry win by armor, such as Ulm, they don't hit much, but take little damage. Upgrade to the knights with the same armor, and their slightly better attack routes the enemy very fast. Horseys alway get +3, because they only fit 2 to a square, and they cost more. With +3 they are somewhat better at defense. But many of these come experienced with 11 attack and 16 defense. They are far superior.

Or, take the often underestimated heaviest infantry in the game. The spine devil. With CBM you get 3 per summon and they have 25hp at size 2 each and 13 defense (12 att/12 def). So they pack 6 str 15 w poison attacks and 75hp per square. W/o experience, and they will get experience. They cast at first level and last until fairly heavy evo comes around.

So, to everyone who doubt, just remember, that that is 6 attacks and 66 hp per square. Biggest problem? No helmet.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

Yeah, I'm guessing that's actually where most of the actual casualties do come from. I believe there's a 20% chance of any given hit landing on your head, and if that happens to a bakemono warrior he's pretty much gonna die. Still, when you're fielding as many as you are it's just not a huge rate of attrition I can tell you from testing. It's a lot more painful when, say a palashanka gets clobbered on the noggin because there's not 50 more right behind him.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

I think they get hit on the head alot because they're size 1 and fighting size 2s.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

Dolls are *way* underappreciated.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

Regarding maximizing income:
Income modifiers are compounded, which means that taking production scales with order scales is better than production scales without order scales. (Ie, it ends up being more than a 9% increase).

Basically, its not x + x*.21 + x*.09, its x*1.21*1.09.

The most obvious conclusion is that taking any scale with an income impact actually has a larger impact when combined with other income scale modifiers than it would by itself. So if you want to maximize income, you can't take negative income modifiers at all, and want to take as many positive scales as possible.

Ex. 21+9+9=39% is the perceived income effect, but the actual is 1.21*1.09*1.09 = 1.438, or 44% more income

Ex. 21 - 9 - 9 = +3% perceived income effect, actual is 1.21*.91*.91 = 1.002, or 0.2% more income

So taking production scales is actually worth doing, although if you're purely maximizing income, i'd take growth first. You certainly don't take a negative income scale.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

Aww, did you write this just for me Baalz? That was nice. And, glad to see you are working out on Shin.

Some nice points. I might work them into my nation. I'm more of a traditionalist though.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

I don't see how Baalz is refuting this really? He purposely keeps the exact build up to the player. With a strategy like this you can take growth instead of prod for much greater income boost, and with no sloth you can still field some Dai Bakemonos.

I am a bit curious about the vampire commanders though, are you sure they're fatigue aura doesn't effect your own troops? In any case, they can be great artillery in their own right as you give them anything from piercers to acid staves. Throw on quickness from an Uba or boots and you've got some pretty good precision hits from non-mages.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

This makes no sense. Bakemono warriors are hp 9 prot 11 targets. They're the opposite of high hp high protection. If you're saying dai bakemono are exactly the sort of enemy you'd use dai bakemono against, rather than bakemono warriors, that's also untrue, since they don't want to be fighting high damage good att units.

This isn't a worst case for the bakemono at all.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

I think Baalz means is the worst scenario for bakemono warriors.
Since they cannot pierce more armor by swarming. And is where more damaging troops are needed.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

I haven't tried it, but you could probably just augment the bakemono warriors by castling a barbarian province and then hiring crap tons of barbarians to flank in hard battles.

Actually, I have used barbarians like this many times effectively, but I've never put a castle on their province specifically to give me cheap damage dealers.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

Good to know I guess.

However, this is not an argument in the issue of dai vs. sho.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

It was not meant to be. Sorry, that was meant to be an informative post. And is really just part of my 'you can do both, and probably should' argument.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

On the 'using castle turns to recruit Shuten-Doji' question, there should be ample time to recruit them instead of Bakemono Sorcerers: When you haven't yet built a lab in the fort, and when you don't have enough money (because you have lots of forts and are recruiting Bakemono Sorcerers from several).

So somewhere in your empire, at some point, there should always be a place where you can recruit non-mage commanders.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

I don't usually build forts without labs or from which I can't build a mage commander every turn, unless there's a specific non-mage commander that its worth building a fort or forts specifically for. (I can think of some examples - a fort pumping out spies is never a bad thing, nor is Jotunheim building a temple-fort for Jotun Jarl thugs.)

I honestly have no specific opinion on shuten-doji, although I'd be inclined against building a fort specifically for them.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

yeah but look:

your not recruiting just shuten-doji, but shamans (stealth) and maybe Uba and Mujina as well.

an on building forts: you _might_ not build an extra fort in the early game, but by mid-game you are building extra forts just to have them closer to the frontline, if your not capturing them from your opponent.

It is inevitable you will have more forts than you can recruit a 300 gold Sorcerer from every turn; so exclaiming "these units consume castle time and are thus worthless" is pointless, because you will inevitably have more castle-time than you can use to recruit nothing but Sorcerers. If this is not the case, then you are probably not in a winning position.

EDIT: obviously, blitz play may change these dynamics, but then I don't think Baalz wrote the guide with respect to blitzes.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

Hehe, actually I wrote this guide based on a duel that I'm doing right now with WingedDog (he's Pangaea FWIW), with some extrapolations into late game. Got a second fort up and never put a lab in it as (with neutral production scales) I never had enough gold to get a Sorcerer from my cap and even max out the production queues in those two forts, never seemed worthwhile to slow the flow of troops with how fast they tore up Pangaean troops. I don't think anything else can compare to the income you get from order-3/luck-3 scales....having a good income then on top of that landing an extra 800 or more gold in an event translates into crapping out a couple hundred bakemono warriors...which is really just quite overwhelming.

He did start fielding minotaurs which prompted me to rotate in the Dai Bokemono, but otherwise those little warriors absolutely dominated the battlefield - centaurs, satyrs, harpies (I think he guessed I'd be massing low protection archers) everything just evaporates. Anyway, I found that having just 2 shuten-doji along with as few as 15-20 bakemono warriors is a ridiculously cost effective raiding squad. Sure, you're not conquering anything with substantial defenses, but you have the option to do some fun unexpected splintering of your armies for quick land grabs. The shuten-doji really do pretty well attacking on the front line (the aoe on the fatigue attack is substantial), give you lots of flexibility in moving/splitting your forces, and at 35 gold a pop are completely expendable.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

I'm guessing it sucks to see your centaus pillaged by goblin hordes.

I was in a duel with my brother and he used spine devils to dispatch my soul contract devils. They are so cheap that it's really rather disappointing. If their skills were a tick higher I'd call them under priced. I never bought them when they took 1 turn for one, and still thought they weren't worth it until they laughed at devils. Cost for cost they pack a huge punch.

So, ya, I feel for him getting his centaurs destroyed by goblins. 54 gold and 30 resources fill square. That is in premium or mid grade infantry range, but certainly not expensive. Not cheap, though. 9g5r isn't too bad for taking a lance charge, either. But, it's no slinger.

A pretender is a guy who conscripts you, gives you just a sling, and rather than telling you to fire at the cavalrly tells you to attack it... What a bastard.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

I really liked the concept expressed in this guide so I decided to try it out. I'm enjoying the game but I'm having some problems. I'm playing a single player CBM game and the first opponent I really clashed with was Mariginon. I have found their forces to be really difficult to overcome with their high moral, high protection, long reach weapons and heavy evocations (even fire flies can be painful over the course of a protracted combat). Now, I am a beginner through and through so I am wondering what the expert response would be. My forces tend to be 20 - 40 bakemono archer set to fire archers, 30 - 60 bakemono warriors set to attack closest (unless there are casters to buff them, in which case it'll be hold and attack closest) and in front of all of that are some kappas or indies with shields to soak arrows, set to hold and attack closest. When possible I have sorcerers to cast Strength of Giants and Legions of Steel before throwing spells at the enemy.

The other big problem I have been having is a crisis of cash. I have Order 3, Luck 3 and Magic 1 (all other scales are neutral) with random events set to rare. Getting armies of goblins led by a Shuten-doji and maybe including a sorcerer for buffs has me strapped for cash. I have been unable to justify building additional forts except in the swamp adjacent to my capital (it's funny how many troops even a swamp can churn out... when you have the cash) because my empire is in a constant state of flux as I skirmish and clash with Mariginon (and to a lesser extent, R'Lyeh and Pangaea). I have recently captured Mariginon's capital but even with that I'm still looking at an income of roughly 850 gold and an upkeep of roughly 350 gold. With funds like that, I am not sure how I am supposed to be financing my expansion while building fortifications AND popping sorcerers and the like. Again, any tips would be appreciated.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

Umm, events set to rare would be at least part of the problem. L3 is heavily nerfed at that setting.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

My suspicion is you expanded too slowly. How many provinces did you have when the war started and what turn was it? You should have been able to use much smaller armies against indies, though those sound reasonable for a war with the AI, depending on what he's using.

Agreed about the Luck scale as well. With Order and rare events, Luck won't get you much. Ditch that to at least neutral and take growth, production or more dominion.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

Order and Luck together is never really a good option. Not that the Order gimps the Luck too much, but rather that you have the option of taking 1 point of Misfortune and getting some other scale instead. Why do something like O3 L3 when you could do O3 G3 M1 for the same price?

also, as other point out, Luck is worthless if events are set to rare.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

Well, I just like not having to worry about random knight/barb attacks, plus depending on what nation you are you might have some excellent heroes show up. Sure its a risk, but hey, its more stress free for me.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

I don't have access to the game right now but my (admittedly shaky) recollection is that I had about 11 provinces (mostly waste land and mountain provinces... there isn't a farmland within six moves of my capitol) when the war started in earnest around the beginning of year 2... I think.

I had two expansion forces, one led by my prophet (40ish goblin archers, 60ish goblin soldiers, 20ish shield indies) and one led by an experienced Shuten-doji (slightly smaller but with kappas and a couple of o-bakemono instead of indies). Unfortunately my site-searching squad (an E3 sorcerer, an F3 sorcerer, a D3 sorcerer and an A1/E1/N3 Kitsune hero) were killed when a Mariginon force proved surprisingly successful against my PD 10 plus the aforementioned Shuten-doji's force (though the Kitsune was able to sneak away).

Shortly thereafter my Celestial General awoke, led a big bad army straight from my capital to Mariginon's capital (almost no one routes with his standard effect nearby, and the Eastern Warriors make great arrow catchers), rescuing my prophet along the way. Mariginon is effectively defeated because, though they have a lot of territory, their god is dead and their capital is solidly in my control. That said, I've found my progress to be slow then and now and I've been surprised at how poorly my forces have (overall) fared against an equivalent Mariginon army.

Any advice as far as troop placement and orders to make an effective ant mob? I just get the feeling that I'm doing something fundamentally flawed in my troop commitment; the little buggers seem like they could be performing better. Or is Marignon an effective foil for the bakemono hordes? This is distinct from my money troubles and is my main concern (different maps and different scales could get me more money, but poor army layout will haunt me no matter what).

Thanks.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

Well, #1 your expansion parties were pretty overkill considering normal indy settings, you should aim for 15 provs by late winter year 1. Also, you don't need that many mages searching in one group, since it gave you a lot of overlap. Take a sorceror with a 2 in all his paths + an N2+ mage and search with them. switch to remote searching after you have some gem income.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

So, after reading this guide, I'm all gung-ho to try out some hordes of nasty screaming little goblins.

BUT...all the bakemono on Shinuyama's recruitment roster are size 2?? Also, Edi's database backs me up, as does lch's wiki:

http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Bakemono_Warrior

Am I crazy here?

Not that the tactics won't necessarily be valid, but some of the math in the preceding examples will be off.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

Umm it must be a cbm change then. here's a screenshot of a bakemono guy. cbm 1.6 used.

edit: unless the file won't upload

but he is size 1 for me. try with cbm

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

Ah, I didn't realize that was a CBM change. That would obviously change things quite a bit.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

One thing to note is that this leaves your bakemono sorcerors quite vulnerable to "Attack large monsters" by any cavalry or fliers that might in your opponents' army.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

More importantly, to missile weapons.

Same problem MA Atlantis has in spades. Their combat caster can be targeted by enemy missile troops with ease.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

I hope it's not considered inappropriate to bump old-ish discussions on this forum, but I've been experimenting a bit with Shinuyama pretender designs and expansion strategies and I found this discussion interesting. It never occurred to me to focus on anything but Dai Bakemono for the front line, and the logic behind using Bakemono Warriors seemed sound, so I tried expanding with them instead of the Dais for a bit. It didn't seem to be working too well, so I did some semi-formal tests to see if I could figure out which unit works better.

I made a bunch of copies of a specific save file and decided to try two different expansion routes with different combinations of units. These are the routes:

Route 1
Round 1: 14 Militia, 5 Light Infantry, 11 Archers, 3 Commanders
Round 2: 13 Militia, 16 Light Infantry, 4 Archers, 3 Commanders
Round 3: 39 Bear Tribe Warriors
Round 4: 42 Barbarians
Round 5: 25 Militia, 7 Heavy Infantry, 4 Archers
Round 6: 28 Barbarians
(Nobody survives past 6)

Route 2
Round 1: 15 Milita, 11 Light Infantry, 5 Archers
Round 2: 15 Militia, 3 Heavy Infantry, 4 Archers
Round 3: 20 Militia, 6 Heavy Infantry, 8 Archers
Round 4: 9 Light Infantry, 6 Heavy Infantry, 3 Crossbowmen
Round 5: 19 Militia, 7 Heavy Infantry, 4 Archers
Round 6: 9 Knights, 19 Militia, 3 Archers
Round 7: 17 Wolf Tribe Warriors, 14 Wolf Tribe Archers
Round 8: 8 Militia, 11 Heavy Infantry, 7 Archers
(This route loops around and I run out of provinces here.)

Route 1 is fairly tough, with 40 tribesman and 40 barbarians back-to-back, and Route 2 is very tame apart from a few Knights near the end.

First, I compared 200 resource armies: 40 Bakemono Warriors vs. 8 Dai Bakemono (I chose 200 here because that's the most Bakemono Warriors you can lead with 40 leadership). For simplicity, I'm not using any archers of either type. Tactics were generally a big blob in front on hold-and-attack, but for the Bakemono Warrior battles against archers, I would set the main group back a bit and put two in front to hopefully misdirect the missiles. The Dai Bakemono have enough defense that I just let them eat it; sending one guy up to get surrounded is more likely to result in a casualty than a stray arrow.

40 Bakemono Warriors:
R1-1: Victory, 5 casualties (35W remain)
R1-2: Victory, 7 casualties (28W)
R1-3: Defeat, 4 survivors rout.

R2-1: Victory, 6 cas (34W)
R2-2: Victory, 2 cas (32W)
R2-3: Defeat, 8 survivors

8 Dai Bakemono
R1-1: Victory, no casualties
R1-2: Victory, no casualties
R1-3: Defeat, no survivors

R2-1: Victory, 2 cas (6 Dai remain)
R2-2: Victory, 1 cas (5 Dai)
R2-3: Defeat, no survivors.

Not very conclusive. Both armies run out of steam at the same point on both routes, and neither have enough success to be considered a good investment. Let's try doubling the resource allotment: 80 Bakemono Warriors vs. 16 Dai Bakemono. Note that the Bakemono Warriors start out at a huge disadvantage here: you need 80 leadership to use them all, which means either recruiting a national commander or using two indie commanders. The Dai Bakemono group doesn't need to worry about this, so the Bakemono Warriors need to seriously outperform them to come out on top here. Not to mention the fact that the warriors cost 50% more gold per resource.

80 Bakemono Warriors
R1-1: Victory, 10 cas (70)
R1-2: Victory, 7 cas (63)
R1-3: Victory, 13 cas (49)
R1-4: Victory, 21 cas (28)
R1-5: Victory, 8 cas (20)
R1-6: Defeat, no survivors.

R2-1: Victory, 9 cas (71)
R2-2: Victory, 5 cas (66)
R2-3: Victory, 7 cas (59)
R2-4: Victory, 8 cas (51)
R2-5: Victory, 6 cas, (45)
R2-6: Victory, 13 cas (32)
R2-7: Victory, 7 cas (25)
R2-8: Victory, 8 cas (16 final survivors)

16 Dai Bakemono
R1-1: Victory, no cas
R1-2: Victory, no cas
R1-3: Victory, 2 cas (14)
R1-4: Victory, 5 cas (9)
R1-5: Victory, 1 cas (8)
R1-6: ?????, no survivors (Odd case here...the Dai Bakemono rout and all die, but the Shuten-doji leading them runs up, slaps one barbarian, and the barbarians rout, leaving me in control of the province. I'd count it as a narrow defeat, though.)

R2-1: Victory, 1 cas (15)
R2-2: Victory, 1 cas (14)
R2-3: Victory, no cas (14)
R2-4: Victory, no cas (14)
R2-5: Victory, no cas (14)
R2-6: Victory, 1 cas (13)
R2-7: Victory, no cas (13)
R2-8: Victory, no cas (13 final survivors)

Both gain the same number of provinces in the same amount of time, but the Dai Bakemono suffer casualties at a slower rate in Route 1 and have a much better survival ratio in Route 2. So they cost less, suffer less casualties to attrition, and are much easier to lead. A clear win for the Dai Bakemono.

But let's not write off the Bakemono Warriors right away. What if we mixed both types together, putting some Dai Bakemono up front to absorb arrows and the initial strike with their high protection and then let the Bakemono Warriors swarm around them from behind, defending their flanks and adding more overall firepower? I took the resource allotment down to 300 and tried a few different ratios, with 1/3, 2/3, and 100% resources spent on Dai Bakemono and the rest on Bakemono Warriors.

4 Dai Bakemono, 40 Bakemono Warriors (this is actually dumb, because it's 44 leadership, but whatever)
R1-1: Victory, 1Wcas (4/39)
R1-2: Victory, 1Wcas, 2Dcas (2/38)
R1-3: Victory, 9Wcas, 1Dcas (1/29)
R1-4: Defeat, no survivors

R2-1: Vitory, 1Wcas (4/39)
R2-2: Victory, 2Wcas (4/37)
R2-3: Victory, 3Wcas (4/34)
R2-4: Victory, 5Wcas, 1Dcas (3/29)
R2-5: Victory, 7Wcas, 1Dcas (2/22)
R2-6: Defeat, 7W survive rout

8 Dai Bakemono, 20 Bakemono Warriors
R1: Victory, no cas
R2: Victory, 4Wcas, 1Dcas (7/16)
R3: Victory, 5Wcas, 1Dcas, 3Wflee (6/8) (I'd have lost all my warriors here, but the battle ended before the rest could rout)
R4: Defeat, no survivors

R1A: Victory, 1Wcas, 1Dcas (7/19)
R2A: Victory, 1Wcas (7/18)
R3A: Victory, 2Wcas (7/16)
R4A: Victory, 1Wcas (7/15)
R5A: Victory, 5Wcas (7/10)
R6A: Victory, 5Wcas (7/5)
R7A: Victory, 1Wcas, 1Dcas (6/4)
R8A: Defeat, 2D survive rout

12 Dai Bakemono
R1-1: Victory, no cas
R1-2: Victory, 1 cas (11)
R1-3: Victory, 3 cas (8)
R1-4: Defeat, no survivors

R2-1: Victory, no cas
R2-2: Victory, no cas
R2-3: Victory, no cas
R2-4: Victory, no cas
R2-5: Victory, no cas
R2-6: Victory, 3 cas (9)
R2-7: Victory, 2 cas (7)
R2-8: Victory, 2 cas (5 final survivors)

It's not quite as clear-cut as I would like (the 42 barbarian bottleneck on Route 1 kills everybody), but the general trend seems to be that the more of your resources you spend on Dai Bakemono, the better you do. My tentative conclusion at this stage is that Bakemono Warriors are not an efficient use of gold or resources during the expansion phase, except maybe to fill out the recruit queue when there's less than 25 resources left.

This doesn't necessarily apply to the units' relative worth in a large-scale battle against another player, with archers and magical support and what have you. The Bakemono Warriors might do better there. But they might also do worse, since they may have AoE magic or early routing to worry about. I can't say just based on the data I have. But it seems to be Dai Bakemono or bust as far as early expanding is concerned.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

Nice analysis, and certainly more rigorous than what I did. I was thinking about why my conclusion differed from yours, and I think it's a factor that I didn't think to mention in the original guide - bakemono warriors are going to benefit disproportionally from more advanced deployment tactics. A blob set to hold and attack (with the benefit of an archer screen) is probably how most people would do this, but this is considerably suboptimal for bakemono warriors (well, any swarm troops) in situations where they are fighting lowish protection, human hitpoint troops (most of your test cases). Look at it this way - in a theoretically perfect deployment round one of melee would be each of your guys attacking somebody. That perfect case is never going to be achievable, but the closer you can get to it is a fairly good yardstick for how effective your deployment is. For example, if 80 bakemono warriors were able to each attack 40 barbarians on turn one, there probably wouldn't be any survivors to even rout, giving you a casualty free victory. In the same perfect situation Dai Bakemono are going to have to take a couple rounds of pummeling from the barbarians.

The most obvious factor is who attacks first? Holding and attacking in a blob from mid field seems to generally result in bakemono warriors defending first round of melee. Another factor is what percentage of your troops are on the front line? The percentage is much higher for Dai Bakemono vs bakemono warriors in a blob situation meaning the offense of the warriors is hampered. The warriors are going to perform much better if you can get a bit of flanking going on. How I generally deploy the bakemono warriors for indie expansion is (depending on what I'm attacking of course): split them up into two groups on each side of the battlefield set to hold and attack with a single guy forward of them set to guard commander (preferably a shielded indie troop). What will generally happen is a sandwiching as the indie forces chase the bait into the vice and disintegrate.

I found the warriors to be pretty brutal expansion units, though you're almost certainly right that Dai Bakemono are better blunt instruments and more user friendly.

Re: Shinuyama – the ants go marching two by two…
 

I'll admit that I'm not very good at predicting troop movement to get the first attack. Under normal conditions, I do split up large blobs into multiple smaller squads to improve surface area, but I didn't do it this time because Bakemono Warriors have morale 9 and that means they rout like it's their job. The fewer of them you have in a squad, the more likely they are to do it, and having half of your army pack up and leave in the middle of a fight is a good way to put an end to your expansion plans. This is a problem I frequently had in my informal tests. I'd have a bunch of Dai Bakemono and 15-20 Bakemono Warriors behind them to cover their flanks or fill cracks in their formation, then three of the warriors would die, the rest would flip out and run away, and then the Dai Bakemono also panic and rout and then I would be screwed. Since routing is a very random thing I tried to minimize the odds of that happening for a more controlled environment, but maybe I'll try a few more runs with divided squads and see what happens. (Although this brings up another problem: like an idiot I created the map without max gold and production multipliers, so I had to wait a lot of turns to get enough gold and resources to set up all my armies, so my dominion is all over the place. That means I'm always fighting with 10 morale, instead of sometimes having to deal with 9 or even 8 like in a real game.)

One other potential wrinkle is that I only did endurance tests based on the path of least resistance. It may be that 80 Bakemono Warriors do better than 16 Dai Bakemono when their only job is to mass up and hit those individual provinces with 25 Cataphracts or whatever and attrition is less of a problem. That's another thing I should probably look at.