Possible Bug?
 

Last night I started a new game in which I let the computer randomly pick races instead of manually selecting the empire files. While checking on one of my AI's I noticed that it did not seem to be using the Tech Area Min Percent line of the research file. Is this somehting anyone else has noticed, or just a random chance (its happening to 3 AI's at the same time).

Re: Possible Bug?
 

Are you sure the AIs didn't just happen to have a "25%" project at the beginning of the queue, or just completed?

If only three races were off on the number of projects, it may not be a problem.

The min percent only limits the addition of projects, and only the first project in the queue determines how many others will be added.

Re: Possible Bug?
 

I'm not sure on one of them off hand, but of the other two; one of them only has a 25% once, and it was well past that, and the other only has 33% and 50% with no 25% in it at all.

I only know of the three for sure, they were the only AI's of mine selected, and all of them had four projects in the research que.

[This message has been edited by Atraikius (edited 02 November 2001).]

Re: Possible Bug?
 

Yes Atraikius, this is a BUG.
I have reported it several times to MM... but still is there (like the cloak and the minesweepers!).

One problem is when a race have several characteristics under 100 points (specially if have 50 or near points), and use these points to improve other characteristcs.
Other problem is for games with:
a) 2000 starting points, the random AI generator, will not use more than ONE Advanced Trait. If the AI have more than 1 racial trait for 2000 points, then, the others are not used and the points wasted.
b) 3000 starting points, the random AI generator, will not use more than TWO Advanced Trait. If the AI have more than 2 racial trait for 3000 points, then, the others are not used and the points wasted.
c) With 5000 starting points, I have never checked, but believe that the limit are three Advanced Traits.

For this reason, I ALWAYS suggest to use the *.emp files, instead the random AI generator.

Re: Possible Bug?
 

MB, he's not talking about the attributes from the .emp files; he's talking about the research queue.

Could this happen if the next tech in the AI file would push the total in the queue over 100%, e.g. a 25 followed by a 100? I'm still not sure how Min Percent works.

------------------
Cap'n Q
My first mod! Hypermaze quadrant
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

Re: Possible Bug?
 

Ooops.
I saw random AI, and did my own picture!
Sorry!

Re: Possible Bug?
 

From what I understood, and observed for the ones I used empire files for; the min % determines how many additional research projects are placed in the que along with the current project. 100% means only the current project is placed in the que, 50% is the current project and the next project to work on, 33% is the current and 2 additional projects, and 25% is the current and 3 additional projects, how it was done prior to this patch. The AI's of mine that were selected randomly did not seem to be using the %, and were researching as they had prior to the patch (bad because I re-ordered the research order).

MB - Have you checked about the abilities from the general file with this latest patch, it looked like that part was correct with the orks, just thier research was messed up.

Re: Possible Bug?
 

Atraikius,
I tried to reproduce this bug, but everything seemed to work alright. All the AI were randomly chosen and obeyed the Tech Area Min Percent line. The AI that I checked were the Phong, Klingon, Orks, Cue Cappa, Space Vikings, Abbidon, Pyrochette, Piundon, Toron, and Sergetti. I was using turn based movement. Were you using sim move perhaps? I didn't check that. Sometimes that makes a differnce.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The min percent only limits the addition of projects, and only the first project in the queue determines how many others will be added.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not think that is how it works. I have posted my theory on the research in a new thread .

Rollo

edit: maybe you just thought the research wasn't working, because you were using three projects with 33? check out the posted link above.

[This message has been edited by Rollo (edited 03 November 2001).]

Re: Possible Bug?
 

Master Belisarius:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Other problem is for games with:
a) 2000 starting points, the random AI generator, will not use more than ONE Advanced Trait. If the AI have more than 1 racial trait for 2000 points, then, the others are not used and the points wasted.
b) 3000 starting points, the random AI generator, will not use more than TWO Advanced Trait. ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I know that it is not quite as you've said. In my P&N game, I just started a 2K point game, and the 1st AI in the list (phong) are sitting with 2 advanced racial traits (Crystallurgy, Normal)
IMO, the advanced traits are chosen first, then the characteristic modifiers are used. The game stops choosing more adv. traits when the racial points would have gone negative to prevent AI cheating. Another note is that "free" zero cost traits must not be chosen Last, since the trait selection bails out when the spare racial points hits zero (before the free traits would have been successfully chosen).

So, you can have as many Adv. traits as you want, but they have to have a total cost less than or equal to the game setting.

The problem for you is that the standard game traits are all at least 1000 points, so you only get one or two choices.
Try "Advanced Power Conservation" and "Mechanoids", in a 2000 point game. you should get both.
In P&N, a 2000 point game would allow you:
"Pack Rats" + "Tiny Race" + "Expanded Automation" + "Normal" + "Pirate" + "Nomadic" + "Big Thinkers" + "Living Ships" all at the same time (total of 1900 racial point cost). That's 9 advanced traits in a 2k point game.

Re: Possible Bug?
 

I started a new game tonight to test something else, and ran into a problem similar to what MB is reporting.

Version 1.49, New Game, 5000 points, Add Existing Empire, Krill. Krill_AI_General says they should have Hardy Industrialists, Propulsion Experts, and Natural Merchants, but in the game they only have Hardy Industrialists.

------------------
Cap'n Q
My first SE IV mod! Hypermaze quadrant
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

Re: Possible Bug?
 

Suicide_junkie:
Really I would like to be wrong!
Please, can you do a test for me?

1) If you have the TDM and 1.49 installed, start a game with 2000 points and random AIs, until one of the random AI's is the Pyrochette or the Aquilaeian.

Edit: you also need to set the Computer Player Difficulty to High, if not, probably the random AI's will not use all the possible points.

2) Change the Pyrochette or Aquilaeian to human control and save this (or these) empires.
3) Start a new game, but using the previously saved *.emp file. You will see that they're not using all the available points.
4) Start a gain, but create the *.emp file yourself, using the AI_general.txt for the empire that you're testing, as reference (and of course for 2000 points).
5) Please check if using manually the data included into the AI_general.txt, the result is over the 2000 points.
6) If you can see what I did wrong, please, please, let me know.

[This message has been edited by Master Belisarius (edited 03 November 2001).]

Re: Possible Bug?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If you can see what I did wrong, please, please, let me know.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So far my theory is this:
1) SE4 adds advanced racial traits from the general.txt
- if the total racial points remaining would go below zero, don't add it, and quit. If the points remaining is 0 add the trait and quit.

2) Racial Characteristics are added & subtracted.

What you were intending to do was take racial points purchased in step two, and buy advanced traits in step one.

But, since step two hadn't occurred yet, you didn't have the points available and were denied the trait.

Re: Possible Bug?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
What you were intending to do was take racial points purchased in step two, and buy advanced traits in step one.
But, since step two hadn't occurred yet, you didn't have the points available and were denied the trait.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, I like your theory. But still we have a bug, right? (Or the manual empire creation must be more restrictive, or the AI random generator have a bug).

Re: Possible Bug?
 

What the AI generator has to do is set all of the characteristics first, so you can have those points available for advanced traits.
The other option is to just ignore the racial point limit, either allowing the AI to choose every trait if its programmed that way, or only produce an error at the end, "This race used too many racial points, and was not added".

Re: Possible Bug?
 

In two more test games, I used Add Existing Empire, then Edit to look at the settings. In both cases, the race had only used 2000 of the 5000 starting points. This was with the Sergetti and Fazrah.

I also notice that the General_AI files always list the Advanced Characteristics Last under each option.

------------------
Cap'n Q
My first SE IV mod! Hypermaze quadrant
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

[This message has been edited by capnq (edited 03 November 2001).]

[This message has been edited by capnq (edited 03 November 2001).]

Re: Possible Bug?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by capnq:
In two more test games, I used Add Existing Empire, then Edit to look at the settings. In both cases, the race had only used 2000 of the 5000 starting points. This was with the Sergetti and Fazrah.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course. The "Add Existing" using the *.emp files, which were built using a 2000-point setting. If you want to "Add Existing" and have them use 5000 racial points, you have to edit the race to include all the settings. It also helps to save the 5000-point race so you can use it in the future without edits. I'm attaching a Word document that includes the 5000-point settings for all basic SE4 races (the ones that came from MM).

This is why a number of the modpack races come with multiple *.emp files; one for each racial point setting.

------------------
L++ GdY $ Fr&gt;Fr++ C++ SdS T-- Sf Tcp? A%% M- Mp! RTH!P Pw Fq--&gt;Fq+ Nd&gt;Nd+++++ Rp++ G+

Re: Possible Bug?
 

I tried out random generation for the new Versions of the Rage and the Vaxin at 2000 points and observed the following:

Vaxin - should be Advanced Storage and Organic, with adjustments to characteristics that reduce the total points enough to allow for both advanced traits. Actual result was Advanced Storage only, but characteristics modified to allow for the Organic.

Rage = should be Propulsion and Advanced Storage with adjustments to characteristics. Actual result was Propulsion and Advanced Storage (using up all points) but no adjustments to characteristics at all.

In both cases, I had moved all of the less-than-100% characteristics to the beginning of the list to allow room for those characteristics that were greater than 100%. I believe that, as SJ said, the advanced characteristics are applied first. If they cost more than the available points, only the first ones that total less than or equal to the available are used. Then, if all the points are used, the general characteristics are not looked at, at all.

Re: Possible Bug?
 

BUMP ?