HeatvsCold - started
 

ok we're finally running with it.
Game: HeatvsCold
Diplomacy: 3v3
Teams:
Hot:
Graeme Dice - Abysia
BigDaddy - C'tis
Hoplosternum - Lanka
Cold:
Trumanator - Niefelheim
Frozen Lama - Caelum
13lackGu4rd - Helheim
Map: Small Divide 3v3
Mods: CBM 1.6

Re: new concept for MP
 

I'd be interested but I'm just learning my way around MP.

Re: new concept for MP
 

Can niefel and van/hel blood sacrifice? If not that would mean the heat nations would have a much easier time pushing their temperature dom onto the other team.

Also, keep in mind that Wolven Winter changes a targetted prov to cold but there is no spell that does the reverse for heat (tho there are globals for both).

Re: new concept for MP
 

Van can certainly blood sac, and I'm not 100% sure but I think niefel can. Niefel and Aby both spread their temperature outside their dominion anyway, IIRC.

For that matter, Niefel and Van are competent blood nations so I'm not sure having Lanka and Mictlan on the same team would be that much of an issue.

Re: new concept for MP
 

yes both Vanheim and Helheim can blood sacrifice, but their hunters aren't really cost effective, but it still a very valid strategy for them. yes Wolven Winter is a bit problematic, but keep in mind that the cold global, Illwinter I assume, is Niefelheim only, which will be in the game but it's not as accessible as the general Second Sun global. however there are battlefield spells that cause both heat and cold, so I wouldn't worry about that too much, especially since on paper the Heat team has stronger nations than the Cold team...

yes Niefelheim can also blood sacrifice. yes Niefel and Van are competent blood nations, but you can't compare them to the real blood powers in Mictlan and Lanka. the later have very cheap and cost effective blood hunters, unique blood summons, etc. Niefel and Van rely on the standard blood goodies but with cheaper and less cost effective hunters(Skratti and Vans mainly) and neither have unique blood summons. also Mictlan and Lanka are very well off with just construction and blood researched, both Niefel and Van need the other research schools a lot more, so you can't just go all in blood with them...

so with both Mictlan and Lanka on the same team, the other team won't get a fair chance(if a chance at all) to go for the blood uniques(Ice and Arch Devils, Heliophagus, Demon Lords, etc). hence I think limiting it to just 1 pure blood power will be good enough, and give the other team a chance to at least get some of the blood uniques, especially if the Heat team gets Lanka instead of Mictlan, which will give them harder access to the standard blood uniques but give them Lanka unique summons.

the way I see it the Heat team is more like a slumbering giant that tries to brute force its way in while the Cold team is like a cluster grenade that explodes all over the place with flying Eagles(Caelum) and air drops(Cloud Trapezing Vanjarls and Teleporting Gygjas).

Re: new concept for MP
 

I like the concept of themes and more team games are very much needed.

Heat (fire & blood?) vs cold (water/air) could make for some very steamy action. :) One team might have cold resistant units, the other fire resistant units. It would be an interesting challenge to see fire vs. water go head-to-head. If your splitting the blood as a secondary theme for each team that might even things a bit. Using appropriately themed pretenders might also assist in protecting each sides unique advantages, that is if you want each side to have unique advantages. Once you've refined and crystalized the concept, I'd enjoy such a matchup. Love to observe it as well.

Re: new concept for MP
 

I don't know... I'm surprised you think that Neifel, Van, Hel is so marginal in comparison to two blood nations (or three with Abysia) or and C'tis. I don't claim to know ctis well, but would play it in this game, if the theme looks well developed and fair.

Re: new concept for MP
 

while Niefel at least has a somewhat cost effective hunter in the Skratti(especially the B3 ones), it's still a lot more expensive than 3 small H1 Mictlan/Lanka sacred hunters. Van and Hel pretty much have the Vanjarls, which are very not cost efficient when you're looking at blood hunting alone. yes it does fit into their strategies as a whole, as seen in Baalz's Helheim guide for example, but compare unit to unit you'll see the huge difference.

Abysia, while could be considered as a somewhat blood nation, only has capital mages with Blood access, and neither of them are sacred, so less cost efficient, and much tougher to maintain in the long run. C'tis doesn't have native access to blood at all, they do have access to Lamia Queens which can get them into blood, but that's no different than many other non blood nations...

Septimius, the whole Fire+Blood vs Water+Air looks good on paper, however I don't see it happening for the Cold side. Caelum fits perfectly, but what about the rest...? Helheim is more of a death nation than an air nation, and partial blood. Vanheim is more of an air nation, sure, but again partial blood. Niefel is ugh... water+death if I had to put them anywhere and ignore their blood element. it seems that not enough nations are really focused on air magic, and some of those that are, Fomoria for example, don't fit the cold theme at all.

also, since blood magic is so powerful having it as a theme for 1 team and not for the other just cries imbalance in my opinion. Mictlan and Lanka are considered as super powers in EA because of their ridiculous blood access and summons. Sauromatia is also an EA powerhouse because of its versatility. blood gives it a lot of this versatility, as the place to go to once you've exhausted the Androphag Archers route.

another thing that goes against the non blood nations in this case is that the other main alternative to blood would be death. death summons are mostly undeads, which are cold immune but very vulnerable to fire, especially the "holy fire" types that does double/triple damage to undeads such as the Holy Scourge, Flambeau, etc. so the Heat team has a monopoly for blood magic and the perfect counters for the undead, what else does the Cold team have in their arsenal?

Re: new concept for MP
 

Skrattis are quite cost effective blood hunters actually, as they are upkeep free in werewolf form.

Re: new concept for MP
 

No, the skratti upkeep exploit was patched.

Re: new concept for MP
 

I was talking about 'who' is a powerful nation *not merely blood... if you were replying to me.

Re: new concept for MP
 

Aha, good to know.

Re: new concept for MP
 

Death is a pretty nice school too and Helheim is good there. Fire is a counter to death. But most things have counters and it's not that great as to neutralise death completely. Fire protection objects are forgeable by Helheim and Vanheim.

EA Vanheim is fairly weak, especially in the company of Mictlan, Lanka etc. It is not really a great bless nation, very capital dependent mage wise and no real go to unit or commander. It's an OK all rounder but adds little to the team IMHO. I would replace them with Fomoria who are strong in air and death. Or Tir if you don't want another giant nation.

The cold team are very none Astral though. I don't think Ulm fits as they are more fire than W or A. Maybe Maverni could be added? Not really cold either but do have the Wild/Barbarian theme of the rest. And they do get water magic on some druids. And the druids give astral to cover that weakness. Maverni are likely to do better in a team game where they have others to fend off rushes.

I would keep Himmon out of it. Mictlan & Lanka are likely to give the hot team a quick enough start and open up plenty of Thug/SC options without making it too easy for them. I am not a fan of Abysia especially in EA and MA but they do fit. Kalisa and C'Tis are both good nations, especially with the two blood powerhouses to protect them early.

Mictlan, Lanka, C'tis & Kalisa vs Niefel, Helheim, Caelum & Fomoria/Tir or Marverni would be an interesting match up I think.

Re: new concept for MP
 

well, the problem is that neither Fomoria nor Marverni nor TNN have any cold preference. Ulm apparently has cold1 preference which is why I added it to the cold teams... I agree that EA Vanheim is pretty mediocre, MA is much better thanks to both Vans(good choice for bless) and Skinshifters(good choice for non bless) but I think the Mage roster remained the same, so still not that great...

yeah, the Astral thing is 1 of those balance issues that I was worried about in this concept, but outside of ditching it altogether I don't see a way to give both teams Astral access, as the Cold team seems to lack it altogether.

anyway, so much talk in here, yet nobody yet volunteered to actually try it out :(
as I said, this trial game will be for a 3v3, which is why the hot team will be limited to either Mictlan or Lanka along with Abysia(just too thematic to give up) and either C'tis or Kailasa, while the cold team will have Niefelheim, Caelum and either Helheim, Vanheim or Ulm(most likely Helheim). for balance sake it might as well be Lanka, Abysia and C'tis vs Caelum, Niefelheim and Helheim, that way nobody really has strong Astral access, just a little for Abysia and C'tis, and the Cold team will have other things going for it.

so with that in mind, anybody wishes to volunteer so we can finally get this game rolling?

Re: new concept for MP
 

As happens so often. Such absolutely known truths flying around. :)

IMHO Just choose one and set up your game. If anyone says the winner is "obvious" then let them join and show it. It rarely happens. Especially in team games which are too few. A team that plays as a team can beat pretty much any loose rabble. And some nations that are frowned on have abilities that only shine in team play.

Re: new concept for MP
 

well, this was supposed to be a setup for a MP game, with me being the admin and all that... but before I put it on llamaserver, as llamabeast suggested in his FAQ, I'm trying to get players interested first... so, to clarify:

Heat vs Cold game
era: early
team game: 3v3- Heat team has Abysia, chooses either Mictlan or Lanka and either C'tis or Kailasa. Cold team has Niefelheim and Caelum, with either Helheim, Vanheim or Ulm.
Map: The Small Divide, with fixed starting positions(not sure how to do it myself but it shouldn't be too hard).
mods: CBM1.6
diplomacy: should be straight forward, being a 3v3 game...
anything else you guys need to know?

if you wish to join please sign up with just Heat or Cold preference, no specific nations yet. once I see who our players are I'll try to put the puzzle together in the most balanced way I find, at least on paper...

Re: new concept for MP
 

How would the hosting schedule be? I'd be interested if it's a bit slower paced. I always like to say things like the flame shall cleanse you or I'm cold ... so cold when I'm dying, but only seldomly get the chance, so Heat, preferably Abysia.

Re: new concept for MP
 

Perhaps a separate game thread?

Re: new concept for MP
 

as far as hosting schedule goes, the early turns will be as fast as we get all the turns in, no need to stretch them as there's not much to do that early in any game... afterward it'll be more relaxed, basic 24 hours or so but extensions won't be a problem. when the majority feels we should switch to 36/48 hour schedule we'll do that, no point predetermining it in m opinion.

and Trumanator, I might as well do that if I see that the current thread doesn't get the game going, give it a little longer though :cool:

Re: new concept for MP
 

I suggested a new thread because it makes organization far easier. If this is going to be a recruitment thread though me and Frozenlama would like to join the cold team.

Re: new concept for MP
 

Ulm forging for Niefle recruitable SCs.

Re: new concept for MP
 

Tbh, unless you have both Lanka AND Mictlan I don't see the "Hot" team beating Nief/Caelum/Helheim. EA Aby isn't particularly impressive, and Ctis and Kailasa are decent but not powerhouses.

Re: new concept for MP
 

but are Caelum and Helheim powerhouses...?
Mictlan/Lanka vs Niefelheim is the powerhouse matchup Imho.
btw Chris,can I count on you for this game? perhaps on the heat team seeing as Trumanator and Llama wish to be on the cold team

Re: new concept for MP
 

I've given up new games (of anything) for Lent. So, if you want to wait till Easter, sure. Although I'm getting kind of tired of mictlan =).

Re: new concept for MP
 

EA Caelum is definitely a powerhouse. Thunderstrike spam + EK SCs = awesomesauce.

Oh, and its Lama, 1 L

Re: new concept for MP
 

The pretender of Mictlan wants to drink the blood of your virgins!

Re: new concept for MP
 

I'm still paying attention, I'm looking at C'tis.

Re: new concept for MP
 

ok so we got Trumanator and Frozen Lama on the cold team, BigDaddy on the hot team(preferably C'tis).
that makes 4(including me), who wants to be the last 2?

Re: new concept for MP
 

It looks like we may need someone to set the map up for us... depending on victory conditions.

Re: new concept for MP
 

I agree that the Hots should have both Mictlan & Lanka. If you want to dilute them a little then increase the game to 4 v 4.

I think that Helheim, Niefel & Caelum is a very strong team. Not necessarilly tougher than Mictlan & Lanka plus one other but probably stronger than if the hots have just one of those bless/blood powers. Blood takes a while to get going and all those three Colds have very good expansion even without the double+ blessing of Mictlan & Lanka.

Ulm is a viable option for the forging for Niefel. But I wouldn't give up Helheim for them as Helheim are far more interesting to play and can blood sacrifice, and a blood inspired dom push by the hots is a danger.

I would like to play. But I don't want to be stuck with Abysia no matter how thematic they are :p I am very happy to play Mictlan or Lanka, but only if the other is playing as well. I don't want to be the single great blessed blood hope of the hot team :)

I would be very happy to play any of the Cold powers.

But I am also happy not to play, in which case I can set up the map placements for you if tell me which map you are going to use.

Re: new concept for MP
 

well, if you guys insist that Niefelheim+Caelum is that strong a team, personally I didn't deem Caelum as a powerhouse, than I guess we can have both Mictlan and Lanka... would be a shame to lose Abysia though, as it's the only Heat3 nation, as opposed to both Niefelheim and Caelum that have Cold3. without Abysia the Heat team will be mainly Heat2 with Mictlan's Heat1, not too thematic, and this is supposed to be a theme game after all...

so Hoplos, you can join the Heat team. so now we only need 1 more player. I think I'll join the Cold team along with Trumanator and Frozen Lama, so BigDaddy and Hoplos, if any of you guys can get someone to complete the Heat team than please do so ;)

as for the map, I was thinking of "Small Divide" with fixed starting positions, each team on a different side/island. so rushing won't be too viable, should make for a longer and more interesting game in my opinion, without uber bless rushes(that both teams are capable of) deciding the outcome... but if you guys prefer a different map than we can do that too, I'm not fixed on it or anything, just looks like a good choice.

Re: new concept for MP
 

Umm, anyone who doesn't play mict w/H3 is doing it wrong. Mict/Lanka/Aby would actually be a fairly strong team since both mict and aby can blood sac, making it hard for the cold team to push dom.

Re: new concept for MP
 

I was really going to play this game for flavor and to use Ctis. I'm already playing another game with Abysia (LA though... which is a lot different).

Re: new concept for MP
 

well, if you insist on going for C'tis instead of Abysia than I wouldn't stop you... but yes, LA Abysia is a lot different than EA Abysia, and yes I know that EA Abysia is considered pretty weak, but along Mictlan and Lanka, and against Cold nations only, I don't think it's that bad...

Re: new concept for MP
 

Trash talking EA Abysia can be fun, but they'll still probably trash someone fairly early with armor and fireballs (if they were in this game!)

Re: new concept for MP
 

EA Aby is fine early game. Then you realize that you have no counter to their thugs w/fire res.

Re: new concept for MP
 

I *usually* play mictlan with heat 3. But you don't have to. That being said, this will be an interesting game.

Whomever the niefle player is, as he spreads cold dominion naturally may well want to consider taking an abnormally high dominion, to help offset the ability of mictlan/lanka to blood sacrifice.

Still: Usually with a double+ bless mictlans scales are crappy - and you usually do not *want* to push them strenuosly. Waste of slaves; plus you're pushing your own crappy scales, on your own dominion.

Quite to the contrary. Since abysia doesn't *need* a bless, and can still blood sac, I would set abysia front and center and let him push dominion like mad.

Have mictlan and or lanka supply the blood knives, and blood slaves and have abysia build temples. By turn 6 you could be getting 20+ temple checks a turn and by turn 12 50+. Thats 20 candles every turn starting on turn 6. On a small map thats pretty devestating.

Combine with Rain of toads on Niefles capitol...

PS: Niefle is strong. I don't think its Lanka + mictlan strong - those are two very strong bless nations; this will make for a VERY interesting bless rush.

Re: new concept for MP
 

I'd definitely be interested in playing as Abysia if this game goes forwards.

Re: new concept for MP
 

Even dbl blessed niefl can't rush abby EA (heat cloud) infantry in hot dominion. It kills other nations, much less neifl. But, what am I saying, I want to play Ctis!

Re: new concept for MP
 

I'm not saying that Nief can kill both, I just think people were vastly underestimating Caelum.

Re: new concept for MP
 

I kind of agree that both lanka and mict rocks like crazy. If graeme dice wants to play aby, let him. then big daddy takes ctis and then hoplo gets lanka- which tops nief easy.

also, judging just by join date, team hot has more experienced people, so it sounds balanced.

btw @blackguard you cool with playing helheim? i'll take caelum and truman wants nief

Re: new concept for MP
 

so, it seems like we've finally got ourselves a full game ;)
yeah Lama, no problem for me to take Helheim, as I said I'll take whatever is left after all the others have chosen, and these teams look pretty good... so we've got Lanka, C'tis and Abysia vs Niefelheim, Caelum and Helheim.

all we need now is for someone to set fixed starting locations on the map "Small Divide", or if nobody knows how to than perhaps a new map to fit the 3v3 setting. than I can put the game up on Llamaserver.

Re: new concept for MP
 

You can change the first post to describe the game, such as settings, and map. You can change the title to ask for someone to mod the map. Say, (players recruited, need map modded) and someone will probably come along. With the setting set up, the teams can mess around with their pretender design, and eventually huddle, mess with their tender a little more and then send it in. By that time we'll probably have someone to mod the map.

With teams, you could probably do some DAR conferences if it was fine with everyone. Otherwise, PMs are fine.

And, I joinded with Dom2. I never played alot of MP, my experience in multiplayer has been almost all 2player (PKing). I also played vanilla for a while before CBM, so I make some mistakes that an old dom3 CBM veteran might not, plus I'm rusty from Dom2 to begin with. No promises, except I like action... Which is why I insist that there aren't really any nations (especially non-bless nations) that do it like Abysia. ("Uh-oh, his rps flatlined, am I ready?")

Re: new concept for MP
 

Again, I think a separate thread would be best simply to make organization and such easier.

Re: new concept for MP
 

I don't think it matters either way, because he can completely redo the first post and change the title. But, maybe I'm just not as familiar with the dom3 forums culture.

Re: new concept for MP
 

I hope Hippo is fine with Abby and Ctis, he seemed to really want Mictlan. Not that I blame him, but Ctis definitely brings some stuff to the table.

Re: new concept for MP
 

btw, i would like to use llamabeast's new mod. it needs some playtesting, and could make it more fun

Re: new concept for MP
 

about small divide- i would suggest that everyone run a couple test games on it before we start. elmokki's maps are know for missing connections and other weird stuff. elmokki is quick to fix them though, so just a little testing

Re: new concept for MP
 

I'll run plenty of tests as soon as the game specs come in. :whistling: :twiddles thumbs:

Re: new concept for MP
 

Nooooooo ;) As I said I didn't want to play Lanka (or Mictlan) if the other was not in the game.

It may be that Lanka is better than Niefel and that the teams are roughly balanced. But Blood Nations and double bless rushing are all skills that need to be learned. And I don't have those skills.

I have not played Niefel in mp and not seen much of them in mp. As for Lanka I have played them once and it was a disaster! I never had a chance to start a blood economy and my sacreds died in unimpressive droves. Never played EA Mictlan, but I did give LA Mictlan a go with again very poor results. So while I like Blood nations in theory it does not mean that I am any good with them :) And I rarely try double bless strategies or try to rush opponents within the first year. So I have no experience their either.

In a team with only Mictlan or Lanka that nation must be played well, especially at the beginning, and I am simply not experienced enough with the sort of strategies needed to take on that responsibility. If I did the Hot team would be at a serious disadvantage.

Therefore I am going to stand aside from this game. I am still available to do the map placings if you need me too.