Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

What's the standard distance between the main units in an assassination or an Arena fight (and are they the same or different?)?

Does unit positioning make any difference? And if so, if one or both units are placed at extremes (fully forward or to the rear), what are the maximum and minimum ranges possible between the opponents?

Basically, I'm wondering what spells can and can't reach in such cases without the units moving closer.

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

Positioning does matter. I know an earth attack will stop in the space next to a commander that's placed all the way in the back after 2 moves for purposes of ballparking the size.

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

the interesting question for me is: are assassinations a special case for battleground size or are they an extension of the standard battle field sizes.

I believe them to be special cases.

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

I know the position of the assassin matters. Are you sure the position of the target matters? Always seemed to me that that target was dead center on their side regardless of position.

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

It can be very important to position assassins since it seems that the opponent (for some strange reason) always gets first action. Properly positioned can force the other guy to run forward and stop giving your assassin a chance to run forward and get in first strike.

Also important for seducers who fail their seduction.

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

it's not strange at all. technically the person attempting the assassination is the aggressor, hence the defender gets the first move, just like regular battles...

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

it think it's strange from a thematic point of view, since the assassin is making a surprise attack on a victim.

tbh, it would be nice, from a game balance perspective (nevermind theme), to see them get first action.

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

So can anyone provide an estimate or guesstimate of the standard starting distances in these cases?

Just as an example, would one be able to cast Charm (or a similarly ranged spell) in an assassination or Death Match, without either party closing any distance?

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

I use Charm often. And usually its fine with the original position of the seducer/assassin (because the other side gets first action and runs forward to the limit of their range). I usually set the script to do two charms and then whatever else to do.

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

Whats the point of using Charm in enemy territory? Wont the charmed one just get killed by its former kins?

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

Usually. However, sometimes not (e.g. if it's the only commander and there's no PD.)

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

A) its still safer than fighting him
B) you get to watch him fight his previous friends giving you a clear view of what is there instead of a questionable spy report

and if its the last commander in the province....
C) you get to watch his old troops route from him giving you the province (fun!)
D) you dont need an army along or use a turn to take the province
E) you get a new commander WITH any experience, gems, and equipment he has

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

Of course, if he's tough enough he might beat his former troops/PD or at least do some damage. Or, if your in a border province he might retreat to safety.

When do those battles take place? Assassinations happen after magic battles but before regular movement. Does the battle with the charmed commander happen right away or wait until the regular battle phase?

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

Fair enough. Never tried it. One could consider having a number of these charmers in a single territory, making it easier to accomplish an actually victory. Charming a thug or two wouldn't hurt then either.

Ah, my love for Pangaea might just grow...

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

What would happen if one used the alternate, enslave mind, and got the commander as a unit instead of as a commander? If the unit was stealthy? If you used charm, and the commander was stealthy?

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

Um, this is all very interesting, but not exactly, or at least not definitively, answering my question. Charm was just an example, of a spell with only moderate range (20), that in a normal battle requires at least one party or the other to close the distance before it can be cast. But I was wondering if the 'battlefield' in an assassination or Death Match were small enough that closing might not be necessary.

Gandalf said he thought Charm might work, but mentioned that the enemy/victim usually "gets first action and runs forward to the limit of their range".

Well, what if I'm the 'victim'? What if both sides resort to spells (summoning Imps for example) or ranged weaponry?

That's why I'm hoping for some precise range numbers, so I know which spells might be able to 'reach out and touch someone' immediately, without anyone moving; which spells work if the enemy closes toward you first, and which spells likely require at least an "Attack x 1, Cast Whatever", kind of script.

So, anyone have those sort of numbers?

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

That would get specific. Different spells have different ranges. And different units have different movement ranges per turn of combat.

Do you want to know how far apart they start? I guess you could view a combat. Hit the space bar right away to freeze things. Then hit the w(?) key to turn off the background and see things on the grid. Then count squares between the units

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

I can hear the groans now. You just HAD to mention Pangaea with HIM in the thread

One of my favorites. If you give a Pan, the Black Heart, you get a FUN assassin.
The assassination makes sure combats are one-on-one. Set him for Charm and/or HellBind (he can usually do both). Give him NO followers.

Whether he assassinates or charms doesnt matter. He always tosses a couple of maenads into the province so you get a combat view of things every turn. A great way to know for sure exactly how many more commanders and whether they are worth messing with. He can take provinces without ever leaving stealth.

Its a great way to wander around behind enemy lines, grab a province, tax it to death while he sends an army to take it back. Force enemies to invest in PD more than they had planned and keep a large roaming army in territory they thought was safe.

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

And as someone always replies when you post this: It only takes provinces against indies. 1PD keeps the Maenads from taking the province. Also keeps the enemy informed of exactly where your Pan is moving and only works in Turmoil.

Not that a Pan assassin casting charm is a bad thing, just that tossing Maenads to take a province plan doesn't work.

Now if the maenads joined the charmed commander to attack minimal PD, that might be interesting. Do they? I'm not sure when either of those battles happen in the turn sequence.

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

I suppose that is what I want to know. I will do what you suggest and look at a couple of assassination fights, and count the squares. But I'm still wondering if all assassination fights occur on the same size battlefield (do things like auto-summons or blood slaves have a chance of expanding the field?), and if Death Match duels are also the same size?

And I'd also like to know the maximum variables that different unit placement (toward the front or back) can get you. Hm, I remember someone telling me how, when you're watching the battle replay, to add an extraneous unit to the fight, just to see what would happen, but I forgot how to do that. Could someone remind me (and I promise I'll write it down this time!)?

Gandalf, I appreciate your help and comments, but I guess I am looking for 'hard numbers' (or at least a way to find them for myself, and you've given me some ideas there, thank you!).

So if anybody has those, I'd love you for it :)

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

The range varies according to a few factors.
In my opinion, if you are set to the rear, under usual circumstances the range in an assassination attempt will be 15.

If you are set to moderate the range will be 10-12, and if you are set to front 5-8.

However, if you have a wraith crown I believe the range can expand.

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

Range is certainly smaller in assassination battles. I had an assassin that would always hit with Gifts from Heaven (-5 precision or so) no matter how the enemy was placed..
I don't remember the exact size, though.
Ctrl-U will let you insert units, Ctrl-K will kill them again, but this shouldn't affect placement. Maybe guards do, you'll have to try yourself.

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

Yeah i've been wondering about that too - i recently got beat down by some low-MR thugs because my blood mages knocked themselves unconscious casting summon imp instead of hellbind heart which was out of range.

How big is the field where each side gets to position their troops? How many squares apart are the edges of these fields? Are assassination, regular combat, and siege battlefields different sizes?

Are the range numbers listed in the spells the same as the units on the map grid? Do they represent the radius of a circle around the mage?

Does anyone know these numbers or am i just going to have to test out some battles and start counting?

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

I've looked at a saved game, and the distance for an Earth Attack assassination, according to "W" (to get rid of the background animation and set up the 'grid') is 11. But the Earth Elemental on its turn only moves 7 spaces, even though it has 14 AP.

So does each grid square take 2 AP to cross? (I guess this is part of the movement mechanics I've never learned or paid attention to previously)

And do all assassinations, whether directly or by remote spell, all occur at the same distance? 11 'grid squares'? And do bodyguards and auto-summons change that?

SciencePro was asking about regular battlefield size, and how troop numbers effect that, and I'm pretty sure greater troop numbers expand the field (so a LA Ermor battlefield should be pretty huge, right?) - does that expansion still apply to assassinations, and the few extra units that might take place in that?

And, without running a boring test game and waiting for it to happen, does anyone know the starting distance between combatants in Death Matches?

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

I assume size is based on number of units coming into the battle, not on changing with summoned units, even ones autosummoned on the first turn. I don't think the handful of bodyguards one side can bring to an assassination are enough to bump the size up.

Even less so with Arena battles.
I'm not sure of the size there, but you wish for an arena fight using the Debug mod. I expect I'll be experimenting with that this weekend. :)

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

LOL! Perhaps I should keep my research to myself, at least until after a certain Death Match is complete :D

Nah, that wouldn't be sporting ;) So, goofing around in SP until a death match happened, and after turning on the grid and counting the squares, I got a battlefield 23 squares wide and 18 high. Assassinations (at least those caused by Earth Attack) occur on the same size field. Units start 6 or seven squares in from the side, or about 11 squares apart (I'll have to goof around in SP some more to see if tactical placement can affect that). And unless someone else specifies otherwise, I'll assume that bodyguards and such will not alter that.

So I guess I've got one last question, that I alluded to earlier - watching an Earth Attack, I noticed that the Earth Elemental, on its turn, only moved 7 squares, even though it has 14 AP. Can someone explain what's going on there (takes two AP to move one square? a unit can only use half its APs the first move in a combat? something else?)? *Uh, see below*

Oh, BTW Illuminated One, thanks for refreshing my memory on the method for inserting extra units into a combat replay! Now I just need theJeff to explain how this Debug mod thingy he speaks of works :)

*Ah, well what do you know! Decided I might as well check the manual before hitting the "submit reply" button, on the off chance it might contain relevant information, and got this: "A move of one square on the battlefield costs 2 action points to one of the four adjacent squares" (3 to a diagonal square, FYI). Earth Elemental question answered! Who ever said the manual ain't useful :p

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

There's a Debug Mod around somewhere. Check the Mod List sticky.

All spells researched - lvl 0. Wish & GoR at 1S cost and a spell to summon a mage with 9 in all paths. Possibly other things as well.

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

Damn :eek: Where has this been all my life! Hundreds of hours (OK, as least a few dozen) wasted in ignorance! :doh: TheJeff, although I will most certainly crush you and claim victory in Mists of Time ( ;) ), I still think I may owe you my first born, or something of similar value :D

You know, I've seen the Debug Mod referenced several times, but never gave it much thought (I think I kept reading "Mod" as "Mode", and figured it was some kind of esoteric coder thing only practicably usable by Dominions nerd-mystics.

I don't know how many SP games I've started in the past, and played for hours just to get to the point where I could test out the spell or whatever I wanted to test. Crap, this should be stickied, or somehow be made common knowledge...

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

I only found it a few months ago. Used it first to figure something else for the same game.

Re: Range in Assassinations/Death Matches
 

Well, to be fair, 1 PD will *usually* keep leaderless Maenads from taking a province. They do have berserk, and could potentially berserk to keep from routing and then kill the PD.

-Max