Pythium, the Second Empire
 

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.7)
 

Fun mod Burnsaber! I really love the Varangians! The Pyrotes are good too but hard to mass (on purpose, I'm sure). I also like the touch of the starting emperor, tres cool.

After going back and playing vanilla MA Pythium, this is *quite* a change-up. Keep up the good work!

EDIT: Forgot to mention newspell 'Alchemist's Flame' - I like it! Actually, all the newspells are great!

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.7)
 

I played with it a bit. I like it more than default Pythium. Probably weaker indeed, but the Emperor is cool, recruitable-everywhere vestals can be interesting and the pyrotes are cool.
The angels seem a bit strong maybe?
I summoned Ambriel, glorifier of the Lord, who's got a whopping 35 forge bonus with fire earth and astral. He doesn't show in your image in the OP, so I wonder whether there's an error in the names, either in the mod or the picture.

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.7)
 

Glad that you liked it.


That forgebonus is likely a typo, the forgebonus is meant to be 25. As for the names, I cannot give the angels permanent names, so they always get random angels names when you summon them. I kept the names in the preview pick in case people want to google or just know the "real" Archangel behind the unit. But since that just proved confusing, I'll update the preview pick today with their "in-game" unit name (a'k'a "X of the Lord").

In hindsight, 35 gems might a bit too cheap for them. I was likely afraid of them looking bad when compared to Angels of Fury. I'll likely bump them to 40 or 45 gems in the next version.

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.7)
 

yummy. can't wait to get started with this mod :)

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.7)
 

Yes, 35 gems is a bit weak for them. They are better than angels of fury on the whole. They lack blood vengeance but can self bless and buff, and have other uses as forgers/preachers/researchers/sneakers depending on who they are and the circumstances while angels of fury are pretty single purposed. Plus some can cloud trapeze or teleport to the other side of a big map in a pinch.

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.7)
 

Burnsaber - had an idea for your more angel-centric Pythium. Perhaps you could use the modified unit type target of Ritual of Rebirth to allow Pythian martyrs to return as (lesser) angels? Perhaps an Angel of the Heavenly Choir or Angel of the Host?

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.7)
 

I have two immediate reflections:
Keeping the Artisans capital only isn't really warranted - they are pretty abysmal in all areas but forging, which actually isn't very good anyway.

Theosis is too cheap compared to similar spells. Call Amesha Spenta has higher path and research requirements (5 astral, 8 research), and a cost of 50 pearls (under cbm, 60 otherwise). The summons from Theosis are superior in most ways, why it ought to be more expensive.

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.7)
 

I agree that artisans are really so sub par there's little reason to build them. Since they have so many randoms and you only need one in each path, building more than two or three is a gamble, since you're likely to get a duplicate path and thus wasted a valuable capital-mage slot.

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.7)
 

Principes seems overpriced at 15 gold. They only have slightly above average stats and equipement. The tower shield is of course good against ranged attacks, but the medium armor means that arrows that aren't blocked will often wounds the unit. And gold cost is not supposed to be about equipement but stats, and for what I see, for supposed "elite" units, theyr only get a few 11s instead of the base human 10.

As such, 12 gold each would seems like a better price, but maybe I am missing something about them ?

I'd like to keep them as cap-only for thematic reasons. I'll likely boost them in some another way. Now that I think about it, I could give them 10% F, 10%A, 10%E, 10%S and 10%W additional randoms to make it possible to get some "Savants", like renessaince geniuses that have mastered several forms of art. With those randoms, they'd always get that one quarantieed pick and had ~41% chance of getting at least one of those 10% randoms for some crosspath forging action. I admit, they'd still be inferior choice to Alchemists, but Alchemists sort of outlive their usefulness in the mid-game once you have stabilized your research and enough of the W picks to act as acid spammers.

I'm not really a advocate of wacky randoms, but they might make sense in this context.

Yeah, LDIceasre brough that up. I'm making another version Wednesday and I'll price them better for that. I'd like to keep them "relatively" cheap though, so I'll probably make the spell somewhat harder to cast to justify that. I was thinking of S5H3 (so you need at least cap on emperor and thus con6) with 50 gems.

Although I kind of disagree on the Archangels being superior to Spentas. Their combat stats are pretty similar, Arch Angles have somewhat higer awe and better average hitpoints, but all Spentas get full item slots (3 of the archangels have restricted slots). Spenta of Sky and Metals is clearly better than any of the archangels and Spentas diversify their respective nation more (3 of the six spentas get you to N and also 3 get you to higher E), they also get 5's in some paths for some good global casting action. Only two of the archangels diversify (Glorifier and Healing) and other angels only give high paths on paths you already have good access to. I'd say that they are pretty much equal as summons and I'd say that CBM Spentas are a bit overpriced in relation to how difficult they are to get for Caelum (besides, as astral summons they have to be competetive with RoS and RoW).

Well, vanilla Pythium Pricipes are heralded (or at least were heralded some time ago) as one of the human best infantry in the game. They are like custom made to act as meat screens for the communions. The ones in this mod are a bit nerfed because they lost a point of defense when I changed their weapons, so 14 gold could be warranted. But I'll see if any other players have anything to say about this, it's been a while before I have played CBM Pythium somewhat competively.

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.7)
 

Does this overwrite MA pythium then? I'd prefer to see it behave like Ulm Reborn or Jomon Broken and be able to act alongside them, to play out mirror universe / civil war style conflicts.

I don't care about stuff it interferes with in other ages tbh, since I like the ages to be clearly divided.

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.8)
 

Okay, I made a new version to quickfix the Theurg Artisan and the Theosis summon. I also wanted to get the Cultist intoruduced as soon as possible.

I'd like to hear feedback about two things though that concern me about this mod. They might be abusable.

1) Pyrotes. Although they sometimes fail comically they can really bring things down fast. Could they be abused in MP? The obvious counters to them would be fire magic (duh) and fire resistance and they could kind of be countered with combat summon spam (phantasms, skellies, swarm) becuase the more they have to attack, they more chances they have to fry themselves or their allies.

2) The holy communion spells. The biggest concern for me at the moment is the H8 "Divine Wrath", which is basically renamed "Ark" effect. If you really wanted to, you ceould kind of get it fast with the prophetized Emperor, PoS and 8 communion slaves. The thing about the ark is though that if you don't want it fry you, you can only use Battle Vestals with the communion which makes the whole army kind of fragile. Perhaps I should make it researchable, like the "Calling of the Seventh*"?

* Has anyone tried it out? I made it researcable because you can get it out pretty fast if you want to and dealing with Michael is pretty hard in the early game, especially because he will most likely eat any awake SC pretenders/early thugs alive very easily.

CHANGES FROM 0.7 TO 0.8


Sounds cool, but I want to keep spell slot usage to a minimum and I don't really think that this Pythium would really get much units to the HoF in a game. Also, it would be kind of dumb to re-awaken a regular Archangel or Harbinger as a weaker angel. It would be kind of nice to have that option, but it wouldn't really get much use.

Yes, because a lot of my motivation for this mod comes from the power level of Pythium and I really think that it should be nerfed. IMHO, it's espicially annoying, because MA is the most balanced era (Ashdod does not exist in sensible games) and Pythium really sticks out like a sore thumb there.

I also really like the fact how it uses absolutely minimal modding slots, especially with the increasing amount of mod conflicts people are getting nowdays. If someone really, really wants to see some real Pythium vs Pythium action, they can make the mod for it themselves (it's pretty simple). That kind of matchup would be pretty dumb anyways, because this nation is a lot weaker than the orginal, so the outcome would be pretty clear. The orginal nation has higher astral (mind duel anyone?) and better communions (better masters for them), so it would really just be a slaughter. Actually using this mod would actually boost regular Pythium with the boosted angel summons this mod provides.

Well, to be honest, I don't really care that much either. But I kinda like LA Pythium (although the sacred hydras are really dumb, IMHO, they should be summons) so I don't want this nation to break it. Besides, fixing the compactibility issues was pretty trivial.

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.8) - Updated 24.3.2010
 

In my test game I can't recruit battle vestals. Are you sure they're there?- If so, I'm probably experiencing a conflict with another mod.

Also I can recruit varangian cap. as a unit.

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.8) - Updated 24.3.2010
 

That's very odd.

Do you have any other mods enabled than CBM?

Also, it might cause odd behaviour if you enable this mod before enabling CBM (I have a warning about that in the OP, but it can be easy to miss).

So, when enabling this mod, enable CBM first and after that the "Pythium, the Second Empire". This is because the mod overwrites mmany CBM changes so it has to be enabled last so that the game reads it last.

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.8) - Updated 24.3.2010
 

Yes, I enabled the mod after CBM.
I have diversity and sprites mods on as well, I'll try w/o them.

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.8) - Updated 24.3.2010
 

I took a quick look and this mod does not clash with either diversity or the sprites mod. The bugs you are having really sound like something CBM did (for example, the Varangian Captain overwrites the Emerald Guard unit, so it becomes recruitable troop if the game draws the recruitment list from CBM instead of this mod). Also the no "Battle Vestals" thing also points out to the game drawing the recruitment list from CBM, since in CBM the Battle Vestal is cap only (and thus produced from a site, not from the list). I don't know why your game is using the CBM list if you enabled it first, put this mechanic could be prone to mystic bugs we don't know depending on OS and other stuff.

Now that I think about it, I could just combine this mod with CBM. I will simply take the CBM mod, put this mod at the end of it. That "combination mod" should be pretty much clash free. I'll make that version once I get home.

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.8) - Updated 24.3.2010
 

Yeah. I made sure to enable your mod after CBM. Since 1.6 is so common now it sounds like a great idea to make your sure your mod lives in peace with it. Thanks!

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.8) - Updated 24.3.2010
 

It should be living in peace with it anyway provided CBM was enabled first, so I'm confused.

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.8) - Updated 24.3.2010
 

I can send my system spec, game files etc. if it helps. Don't know what's more effort, to put this mod after CBM or try to debug strange conflicts like I have.

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.8) - Updated 24.3.2010
 

A new version and I made a version of the mod that also includes CBM 1.6. I also used this chance to do a small update and made the "Divine Wrath" spell reguire research (just to be on the safe side, castable "Ark" effect is nothing to sneeze at, even if it reguires H8 to cast). Another update was to make a "Secrets" file for this mod, like I have done to Bretonnia and Dwarfs.

So now, in the graphic folder (called "Byzantine") of this mod, there is a a .txt file called "Pythian Secrets", which explains the many nuances of the mod and effects of the spells in gameplay terms. Warning though, the file could be considered as a spoiler fest, but good for players who do not want to second guess what a spell actually does.

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.81)
 

I am with burnsaber on the alchemist vs artisan debate. You don't really need huge numbers of alchemists. You DO want to hopefully get a few artisans for each path. If you get more than you need you can use extra s guys as site searchers, same with water ones if you can make water bracelets at the time. You'll want some of those anyway to let them forge higher path items, boost alchemists, etc. And since it's really just the alchemists and the artisans competing for the capitol mage slot, I don't think it's really a big problem.

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.81)
 

A really nice mod, and the amateur of pythian double edged weaponry can only be happy with the change ! Anything not totally fire immune tends to burn so well (along with the pyrote, for sure), that I wonder if they're not a too good counter to much costlier units/strategies.

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.81)
 

Theurgs are supposed to be 2s2h+1[a/w/f] right?- At least that's how they're shown in recruit. screen.
The thing is, last turn I got a 2s2h2a Theurg. how come?- WAD or Bug?

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.81)
 

That is a valid concern. Never though of it like that. Pyrotes are quite easy to counter, but they themselves might really be a too good of a counter. Now that I have made "Divine Wrath" thaum 7, Pyrotes really are my only concern about the balance of this mod on this point. After all, the goal of this mod is to give an sort of alternate weaker version for Pythium for those who would like that kind of thing.

Does anyone else have any opinions on the matter? I'm kinda tempted to up their costs just because they are rather micro intensive (both for you* and your opponent*) so I don't want there to be too many of them around.

*The best to way to wield Pyrotes is to mix them with chaff and place in this loose formation in several squads ( sort of like archer decoys). Ironically, the exact same type of placement is also the best counter for them.

WAD, I admit the current layout is a bit confusing, but it is the only way to give linked randoms with modding tools we got, so it's not like I have a choice. It's mentioned in the "Pythian Secrets" file. I gave them linked randoms because I don't want them to be able to get W+F and cast acid spells (thematic concern). The linked randoms also makes them better battlefield mages to sort of "make up" for the loss of Arch Theurgs.

I also hope that this means that the current version is working on your end?

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.81)
 

I would have to test a lot to know the right cost fo pyrotes. They tend to get hit easily, but don't die that fast. Maybe lowering their hp by 1 and keeping cost as is? Increasing the cost may make them to expensive to ever recruit so I think the increase shouldn't be too steep. Maybe more an increase of resources cost, so you can't mass produce a lot of them in one turn?

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.81)
 

Working. I'm enjoying every second of playing with this nation :)
To tell the truth I love the original MA Pyth. as well. I also would have liked very much to see them both enabled.

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.81)
 

Uh... I, personally, could see a gcost increase before an rcost increase :D They already cost ridiculous amounts of resources. I'm playing a game with SEVEN provinces adjacent to my capitol and production 2, the most I can recruit in a single turn is 9. They do, though, seem like a really good counter to most sacreds, since they don't even have to land their attack to hit. OTOH, I fail to see them as being better than ma abysia's recruitable fire lizards, since they're almost as much of a danger to you as to your enemy, and said fire lizards are 45 gold 1 resource per.

I haven't tried using them earlyish, because for that many resources... I fear they wouldn't be very efficient. But I finally used them my last turn under will of the fates and mistform. They were extremely effectice under those conditions, clearing good chunks of enemies every turn without really dying. I don't think fire resistant is enough either, you pretty much need fire immunity to go toe to toe with them.

Re: Pythium, the Second Empire (v.0.81)
 

Well, on the opposite of salamanders, they do have good armor. Massed archers would make short work of salamanders. Plus they can hit deep in the ennemy formations. Massed mammoths or elephants would probably win a battle on a gold equivalent basis, but they'd need luck for it to be gold efficient. I've only had one occasion to test them against caelian mammoths, and they were impressive, just ten of them + velites, against 6 or so mammoths with support, and only one mammoth lived to speak about his great victory.

Further testing is maybe required before big modifications.