Weird use of gems in battle?
 

Caster is F8, she has around 10-12 fire gems and scripted to cast Evo9´s Flame Storm which is F5 and fatigue 100. (since my caster is F8, the fatigue for casting this should be aroun 12 or 13, 100/2/2/2)
She only casted twice but she goes and uses ALL the gems. Shouldnt this spell be at 1 fire gem cost? Something I am missing? is she using more gems for enhanced dammage or AoE? Is tehre a way to avoid consumption of all the gems?

She had around 42 fatigue before casting the first time and used 3 or 4 gems. She had 70 before casting the second time and used all the remaining 6 or 7 fire gems. After that she remained with fatigue 90. wtf?

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

ok, first of all you're calculating fatigue wrong. Its not halved for every 1 over, its 1/(n+1), where n is Path-Path_required

So 8-5 = 3 -> 1/(3+1) = 1/4 cost = 25 fatigue per casting +spellcasting encumbrance.

Only one gem can be used to increase path level (and thus level dependent effects), so i might expect an extra gem to be used per cast, making that 1/(4+1) = 1/5 cost = 20 fatigue + spellcasting encumbrance per cast, and effective F9.

Additional gems can be used to reduce fatigue cost, but since the next gem only saves 4 fatigue, I can't imagine she'd use it.

How the heck did she get to 42 fatigue before casting anyway? But if she used 3 gems that's 16 fatigue + spellcasting encumbrance to go from 42->70, so she must have a whopping *12* spellcasting encumbrance (ow!).

So, i don't know what's up with gem use necessarily, but I do know you should reduce your spellcasting encumbrance somehow - 12 is crazy town.

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

Probably buffing itself in other paths, like summon earthpower+invulnerability or something similar, which could bring it to 42 fatigue. Nothing to be afraid of. And as Squirreloid said, 12 spellcasting encumberance is 'crazy town' levels, which is not necessarily bad if you just want to throw that one big spell with the caster, but if you want to keep casting spells, reduce it somehow. Easiest would be to take off that black steel full plate from the caster or whatever it's wearing, put rainbow armor or any of the dragon scale mails on it, they're good for those squishy expensive casters (at least in CBM, I seem to recall them being somewhat useless in vanilla).

To the original issue, spellcasting AI has some renegade ideas about gems, they're like candy to little kids - it just can't keep it's hands away from consuming them. Sometimes it can do it if the scripting is done to do some full-scale evos and there's just few units against the army/caster and it decides to cast something else from another path. Like summon fire elemental. Or something.

What you should keep in mind: If you give gems to a mage, don't expect them to be there the next time you fight with them. He/She/It will use them at the earliest opportunity, even to reduce 4 fatigue per gem. You can go around this by giving a stealthy commander, such as a indep scout the gems for next few battles and transferring them at the turn next to big fights.

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

a few comments.

A). Was it raining? etc. Similarly spells can double the cost of fire based spells.

B). What was the magic setting of the province. Drain 3 could increase 20% iirc.

C). Fatigue is the sum of the spell cost and your encumbrance from armor.

D). Unlike what Squirrel said, you can only use 1 gem to decrease fatigue cost.


Try casting phonex power first. Also, I'd have to ask if you are using a crystal shield (heavy encumbrance cost). They're good for casting single big spells - but not good at repetitive casting.

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

D) You can use as many gems as your current level in the school when casting a spell, so for fatigue reduction purposes the number of gems you can use is (casting level) - (required gems to cast).

The combat AI likes to base the number of gems it uses on current fatigue. So if you have 4 gems and are casting a fatigue 50 spell, the AI might use zero gems on the first cast, and then once your fatigue is at 50, use 4 gems for the second cast.

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

page 89:

"a mage may never increase his skill level by more than one using by using gems."

Ie., the mage may use 1 gem to increase his level (to cast a spell or to reduce fatigue).


the ai will always use 1 gem for fatigue reduction if it will put you over 100 fatigue.

Or choose not to cast the spell of course...

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

You can only use one gem to increase your path level, which is what i said. But you can spend extra gems after that to reduce fatigue as if you had increased your path level, but without the other benefits of increased path level (ie, no additional benefits to level-dependent effects).

So you can spend far more gems than 1 to decrease fatigue, but only the first actually increases your effective path level for other purposes.

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

Another misc. point: Cold-blooded creatures in the cold can get some pretty heavy encumbrance.

First time I read that bit on page 89, I also interpreted it to mean that at most one gem may be used for path boosting, and at most one may be used for fatigue reduction without path boosting. But I reread it just now, and yeah, the only thing it says about the limit to use of gems for fatigue reduction (without path boosting) is that the mage can't use more gems altogether than it has skill in the path. Well, this matches my experience--mages looove to burn up huge piles of gems! E5 mages spending three or more gems per earth elemental, etc. It's nice, at least, that mages are pretty reliable about using gems when you do want them to use gems, even if the casting will nearly kill them, though you can't trust them very well to save gems when you want them to save gems....

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

I can't remember ever seeing more than 1 gem used per spell to reduce fatigue. So while what Squirrel is saying is something I have heard many times, I am not entirely convinced.

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

I've never seen it either, nor am I convinced. Can anyone create a turn that shows this?

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

I have an Agarthan Oracle clearly using 3f to cast flame storm (req 1f to cast, F5, 100 fatigue) each of both times he casts it. Its embedded in a pretty big battle, so you may need to do some looking to find him (he's one of only 3 Oracles of Fire though), but the gem expenditure is obvious once you locate him.

Interested parties can ask by PM and include an e-mail address for me to send the .trn file to. (Its Landlubber, so I'd ask participants in that game to *not* ask for it).

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

I'm trying to test it now, and I've easily gotten a W6 mage to spend 3 gems per water elemental... but maybe he's spending one gem to reach W7 for the purpose of casting, and one to reach the fatigue-calculation level of W8... that is, maybe it's not possible for him to spend four gems per water elemental. Hmmm. That would contradict what I claimed earlier....

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

Ahh, I just got a W6 mage to spend 6 gems on Shark Attack!

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

Haha and right after that he spent 5 on Living Water. THAT was where I saw it in the past--Angakut casting Summon Water Power and then repeatedly casting Living Water would burn through the aforementioned huge piles of gems much faster than I'd planned!

Also, it does appear that he gained one extra water elemental for his trouble! (Seven were summoned.) So of the five gems he used, I guess two went to the basic casting, one boosted him to W7, and two reduced his fatigue?

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

Technically I guess they wouldn't be burning the water gems

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

Interesting.

a while ago I posted a write up where the castor was casting TWO spells simultaneously. IIRC it was hellpower, followed immediately by summon imp.

There is additionally, the known bug that allows a priest to double banish.

The only time I see this happen is when a communion or spell boosts the level of the caster.

Obviously, there is a queue which dictates who goes when. I wonder if its possible that the process of updating the queue with the caster's new level is somehow not working.

I don't recall if Summon Living water is a + spell (increased effects for castr level). However, if its not, is it possible do you think that the extra two gems were just casting a summon water elemental out of turn.

Have you looked at the log?

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

Living Water summons 4+ size-4 elementals. The other water-elemental spells produce size-3 and size-6 elementals. The ones that appear in this battle have size 4. It seems to fit.

I don't know how to look at the log.

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

Hellpower is bugged. If you cast it without sufficient B on the caster, it looks like it is cast (the battle view says it's cast), and the caster follows up with another spell.

But! If you look at the debug log, you'll see something like "-5 returned from cast()" or something along those lines. And your caster does not get the path boosts or the horror spawning. That's why he casts another spell immediately in the same round, because he didn't actually cast Hellpower. He just pretended to. I think in CBM it's defined as B1 to cast, 300 fatigue (3 slaves). But a B1 can only use one slave, that's why the casting fails.

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

No, I got path boosts, as well as horror marking.

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

Have you got a .trn file where that's happening?

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

Bugger, I posted this question just before leaving on Easter holiday and I just saw all your advice here today.

Thanks a lot for the answers. Yes I calculated the fatigue wrong halving it each time per additonal numbers.

Additonally the caster was a Tartarian Titan so no equipment encumbrence. The 42 fatigue was achieved by casting some buffs prior: summon earthpower, phoenix power and maybe some other spell I cant remember now.

No rain or other funny effect going on at the same time.

Once Im back at the PC where I have that game turn Ill check again. Thanks.

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

casters with 0 enc. still take equipment fatigue for spellcasting.

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

Fuc*!

Things you learn in the forum! Thanks.

Presume you are 100% sure. But makes no "logic" sense; if an undead has no equipment fatigue for combat (i.e. its movements are unhindered by equipment) why should he/she have it for spell casting?

Anyways, that would explain a lot of the gems my tartarians have recently "wasted". The one that originated this thread was wearing Alsefrik´s (spelling) armour (artifact level 8) or one of those heavy ones...

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/facepalm.jpg

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

It doesn't make much sense, it's true. You would think either armour makes a difference or it doesn't, not it doesn't for melee but does for magic.

But hey, the standard was set when D&D mages weren't allowed armour. It's a well known fantasy trope. It also turns up in cyberpunk where technologists and hackers are 99% of the time physically weak.

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

more than just the DnD trope - iron was said to interfere with the fey, as well as spell casting in general. Even the basis of alchemy had the properties of the metals...

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

Nah, the manual says something about casting being difficult with armor because its heavy and/or hinders movement for the magic signs...

"...Spell casters also incur fatigue equal to their Encumbrence value for each spell cast. This is not subject to reduction by skill bonuses. It is harder to make magical gestures in heavy armor. Everyone knows from armor class rules..." (page 87)

So if "undead" is considered a "skill" then the rules are exact. Otherwise they are not!

In any event it would be nice to have the spellcasting encumbrence also displayed so to avoid this confuison...

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

Try clicking on the Encumbrance value on the unit display screen. It should pop up a window with different melee and spellcasting encumbrances.

Lots of the unit info values have "click for more detail" pop-ups like this.

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

It is displayed. Right click enc.

Re: Weird use of gems in battle?
 

Cool, thanks.