NaV II, MP game or Scenario
 

Was wondering whether anyone knew at what point an MP game becomes a "Scenario", as in the case with NaV II:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45227

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showp...31&postcount=2

Is a scenario just a custom made map with certain special features, encounters, provinces, etc added to the .map file or can scenarios be MP games, with many of these elements present, such as custom pretenders, specially set up provinces, certain victory conditions, custom themes, pretender choices, a storyline, etc?

Thanks.

Re: NaV II, MP game or Scenario
 

So you just want to know what the community definition of a scenario is,.. or?

Re: NaV II, MP game or Scenario
 

Correct (though might be nice to know the developers exact definition of a scenario), does a scenario have to involve a scratch made custom map or can a scenario use a random map or other sort of map? If the latter what MP games or elements of such games makes them "scenarios", specific era, customized and hand placed AIs and indies, specstarts, non-traditional setup options, themes, etc. Looking at the included scenario, other than the #scenario tag, doesn't look much different from any other .map file that has been modified. Don't want to violate any forum rules by calling a game a scenario or posting "scenario" threads in the wrong forum.

Re: NaV II, MP game or Scenario
 

Well since scenarios, maps and mods all share a forum,... I don't get it.

It seems to me like you just want to draw attention to the two threads above : /

Re: NaV II, MP game or Scenario
 

Well the thread I linked to is posted in the Multiplayer and AAR subforum not in the Scenarios, Maps and Mods subforum. So was sort of wondering if was appropriate to post it there as a scenario, hence my questions relating to the line between an MP game and a scenario and what constitutes a scenario. Thanks for the response though.

Re: NaV II, MP game or Scenario
 

As far as I'm concerned a scenario is a map that has a fixed storyline with pre-designed gods and fixed nations and alliances. And some kind of unique thematic victory condition. Preferably there would be an intrigue unfolding during gameplay.

To it seems that Dom3 doesn't really support what I would call a "scenario" or "campaign" which I accossiate mostly with single player.

I guess that roleplayed multiplayer games like the one you mention could fill the gap to a degree. But who cares what words we use, call it what you will.

Edit: But no, I don't think you should post such games it in this forum. They very clearly belong in the multiplayer section, and only there.

Re: NaV II, MP game or Scenario
 

Well is it a MP game? If it is, it belongs in the MP forum.

Also if you were really concerned about posting in the right place, I doubt you'd have effectively posted it in both forums.

Anyway a scenario is just a map and or mod file where the course of the game resulting is heavily influenced by the map maker, in whatever direction. This could be preplaced sites, premade sides etc etc. But you know all this already.

Re: NaV II, MP game or Scenario
 

a Scenario would be a map with special features, such as a story line, programmed in game events, fixed nations and starting locations, unique victory conditions, etc.

also for it to belong in this part of the forums- Scenarios, Maps and Mods, it needs to be a *downloadable* file with your Scenario map. advertising for a *game* here is just wrong, it belongs where you first posted it- the multiplayer area...

Re: NaV II, MP game or Scenario
 

It doesnt have to be just a map. Dom3 has lots of "just maps" and "just mods" and "just game settings" that you can dive into. But when you extend them with story and more challenge and some flair then thats what games consider a Scenario or a Campaign.

I think the NaV games are a great example of going beyond the usual king-of-the-hill games. As for appropriate? Im afraid that Im the reason there is scenario on this forum. But it was an early recommendation before I realized it was so broken in Dom3. Later the Scenario tag was added as a way of limiting searches to appropriate results. I think the NaV game should be in the MP directory, and tagged MP. Im not sure that anyone who is looking for scenario will feel its correct to land on the NaV game. Particularly long after its over.

There are a few efforts at what I would consider scenario or campains but like I said its pretty broken IMHO. It doesnt even work as well as it did in Dom2. Id like to see more of them but many of the needed components only work if done manually from a server so its more of a way to run an MP game than it is a downloadable thing you can run thru yourself.

Re: NaV II, MP game or Scenario
 

Thanks Blackguard and Gandalf. Yes, I can understand why some might say NaV II does qualify or seems more scenario like than most of your run of mill MP games what with custom AI pretenders, magic items, starting troops, pre-placed units, hand placed magic sites, pre-made teams and specstarts, specially modified provinces, a storyline and themes, thematic pretender choices, a human played mercenary nation, "The Gimp", etc. NaV II seems to have all the makings of one and all the flavor of MP and SP combined. Yes, Gandalf, I agree. NaV seems to have it all. :D

But many MP games now make use of mods and/or a modified .map (which is really what makes a scenario a "scenario", the image file is just a graphic). So they can't all be scenarios.

Wasn't really advertising it here (it is posted and advertised in the MP forum) although if it does qualify as a scenario it probably would not have been improper to have done so. Just had that question and didn't want to break any rules using the scenario thread tag in the MP forum where the game is posted.

NaV II does seem to be both an MP game and a "scenario", but might be best as Gandalf says to tag it as MP at least before the game ends otherwise I'd need to post the .map file after the game is over so others could use it. Thanks for your help dudes.

Re: NaV II, MP game or Scenario
 

NaV II is also easy to clean, you simply snap it open and rinse it with cold water, and it's ready to play moments later. It's as easy as 1 2 3!

It's hard to say whether such a brilliant game with so many features could even be accurately described as a scenario - it's really more of an experience. Perhaps we should discuss this.

Btw links to the NaV II threads:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45227

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showp...31&postcount=2

Re: NaV II, MP game or Scenario
 

Games that just use maps and mods wouldnt be a scenario to me. Not if the map can be used without the mod or the mod can be used with any map.

It would need to be more like "Antilarium" map and mod combo
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...524#post630524
where they are designed, and pretty much require, being used together. Same with game parameter switches. Or maps that require certain nations be used for purposes of scenario such as well-fortified and improved AIs.

Part of the failure of the "scenario" command for Dom3 is that it should allow setting all of those, and enforce their use instead of having to include lots of instructions and warnings to make it work as single download package.

Re: NaV II, MP game or Scenario
 

If only I had the artistic talents, time, and patience to make the map fit more with my ideas, but as random maps go, it works pretty well. Much about scenarios is really in the imagination anyway such as in a Rome Total War scenario, that puts you in a certain place at a certain point in history with certain units at your disposal, and arranged just so. I suppose at some point I could use graphical portions of existing maps (with permission of course) or as many do, convert maps from other arenas, to place for instance a forest themed team in a completely forested area, and a mountain themed team in a mountainous area, etc. Finding existing maps that meet all my requirements to the letter is fairly difficult, hence the random map route.

Re: NaV II, MP game or Scenario
 

That reply makes perfect sense!

Thank you for reading my post!

Re: NaV II, MP game or Scenario
 

Sorry, I missed your post Fantomen. Yes, I agree one usually thinks of single player when it comes to scenarios, but there are of course scenarios designed for MP as well. So they are sorta both I guess. Yes, I suppose themed games, RPGs, and what have you do attempt to fill the gap.

Thanks for your post. Too bad Dom3, as you say, doesn't really support scenarios or lend itself to team games the way others might. But I am glad for the capabilities we do have and the possibilities to make these things happen, whatever form they may take.

Re: NaV II, MP game or Scenario
 

I dont mind generated maps. Most maps use SOMETHING to ease the road.

And even a generated map can have alot of work put into it. Tweaking neighbors, doing logical names, altering the color on plains or waste to make them obviously different, adding caves, putting in special items like bridges or port provinces. Maybe even making it wrap.

If someone does a generated map and puts lots of work into it, and then want it to gain more acceptance (like getting it listed on the map lists) then I recommend looking into some of the filters in paint programs. Posterizing, Lightening, or Sepia, can give it a drawn map look.

Re: NaV II, MP game or Scenario
 

I believe he was giving you the benefit of the doubt and assumed that you were making reference to the fact that he used a random map , i.e., "It's as easy as 1 2 3!"

I enjoy sarcasm when it is applied minimally, but you tend to wield it like a blunt weapon. :hurt:

:down:

Re: NaV II, MP game or Scenario
 

That saddens me, because I post for your enjoyment.

Re: NaV II, MP game or Scenario
 

I didn't take offense and I am sure we are all beyond excess sarcasm, snobishness, and thinking that we know everything. My goal was to get input on the scenario concept and other questions and with the help of all those who responded, I have gained a better insight.

Re: NaV II, MP game or Scenario
 

Apparently we aren't all beyond being passive aggressive though?

It doesn't really seem like there was any input on the 'scenario concept' that isn't obvious. Seems more like you just wanted to advertise your game. That's cool, I have nothing against that. But maybe some honesty?

Re: NaV II, MP game or Scenario
 

Seriously, what input their was was enough to answer my questions. I learned that scenarios need to have the .map file available for download. I learned that the #scenario tag can't really be used without disabling many useful global game setup items and I got input on what some players consider a scenario to be. It was interesting to note that some had differing but similar ideas regarding what really makes a scenario. The role that a map plays in adding to the scenario experience.

Advertising? :shock: Well, if it occured it was not my really my goal, though perhaps an interesting side effect.