cheapest summonable thug
 

What is the most cost-effective commander for usage as a carrier of ranged items items (different wands- fireballs, crossbows, bows, etc) in endgame?
Is there such a thing as no-brainer choice here in CBM? Like sleeper maybe?
Hiring indie commanders looks expensive for support, who what kind of summons uses? Or buying indep commanders still the best choice?

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Mound kings(very fragile) and banes don't cost that much, but they cost death gems which are very useful in late game to most nations in summoning tartarians. Sleeper is a tad worse since it costs nature gems which you'll need for both gear and Gift of Reasoning the said tartarians - certainly they can be used, but the opportunity cost is probably not worth it. Overall I'd say hire indep commanders, or preferably scouts as they are cheaper AND stealthy (your opponent might not see them coming as easily). There are a few mods out there - namely zlefins f/w thugs which add summonable commanders for fire and water paths for quite a good price. I haven't tested llamabeasts endgame mod which adds different kind of commanders too, but from what I gather they're meant to be more sc kind than thug kind so they cost a lot more.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Hire scouts.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Note that your title "cheapest summonable thug" differs dramatically from your actual question, effectively "what is the cheapest commander to transport items/gems" (or possibly "what is the cheapest commander chassis to give spellcasting items to for the purpose of non-mage artillery" - I'm not entirely sure which you're asking for.)

A thug needs to be somewhat survivable in direct combat - a commander using e.g. a wand of fireballs does not. Just pointing this out in case there are actual "thug" aspects to your question that you didn't explicitly lay out.

Quitti and Sombre have given the "usual suspects" answers for the latter case. Note that CBM does open up a few additional options for national unit summons for some nations (e.g. Bogarus has a few gem-cheap commander summons.) But unless you're looking for specific nation advice, that's probably not worth going into.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

To use ranged itens, from bows to wands, i like to use those indep mages with 1 nature, so i can cast eagle eyes before firing away at the enemy.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

cheapest thug would probably be the black servant, a decent choice in the early game, and being ethereal is never a bad thing... but keep in mind that "cheapest" depends on quite a few things, such as:
1. your nation- this will determine how you can use your gems. for example, a nation with practically no death magic(such as Jomon) death mages might not be as valuable as heavy death magic nations such as C'tis(all eras) or Helheim.
2. indy mages- can fill in gaps in your national magic diversity, which in turn will connect with the 1st point about how you can use your gems.
3. luck- this comes in 2 forms. the first is random gem events(not too significant with Misfortune Scales but they do occasionally occur even under Misfortune2). the second is the magic sites you managed to find in your kingdom. the more income you have of a specific gem the cheaper it is for you to use it for side spells.
4. stage of the game- in the early game there isn't much you can do with death gems for example, besides a few items such as skull mentors and horror helmets. while in the late game it's all about tartarians...
5. your enemies- your enemies will determine what you need to react to, what counters you need to bring to the table. for example if facing Marverni than battlefield clearing spells such as Earthquake, Rain of Stones, Wrathful Skies, etc would be used quite often if you have access to them. if however you're facing MA/LA Ermor, C'tis, etc than Wither Bones and even Undead Mastery suddenly become your go to spells. notice that the gems you need to cast those spells(in battle, not from your lab) are different, and although each spell doesn't require many gems it piles up quite fast.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

As far as thugging goes, check out my sig for a guide to cost efficient thugging, which varies a good deal by nation.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Hawks are cheap. And of a low value gem. Stick a bottle of water on a hawk commander for a cheap easy raider. Script the other hawks to guard commander because if they die you get routed. And they die like flies. It's one idea for cheap carrier. Can't use bows, but a bottle is like a ranged weapon.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

2baalz : I think most people read your manuals before game manuals. I'm not an exclusion.Thanks.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Troll Kings are clearly the cheapest thugs. I mean, you spend the 55e gems for the mooseknights, so the Troll King is basically free after that. ;)

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Some that I like in CBM1.6:

1) Bane with flying shoes and Heroic Blade with orders to attack rear. A few will take out any Size3+ SC, and as a bonus they will also rip apart small PD's (so they double up as raiders and SC hunters). With a hammer available those cost 4D, 3A and 3E gems per one, so a few won't make you go bankrupt on anything.

2) The light cavalry commanders (Horse Brothers being the best choice) with spell-casting item or a magic bow (depending on the targets and gems available for crafting). Very affordable, very mobile (terrain permitting), and especially after a couple exp stars they are deadly shots (the magic bows usually improve precisssion too); they are usually where you want them to be, and they are fast enough to outrun anything if things go to poo

3) Sleepers are just plain good. Good overall stats, high precission (15), and lets not forget the Standard 15; sadly they cost 8 nature gems so not as affordable as the Banes. If facing fear causing undead or demons these guys just shine; give him a Herald Lance and Horn of Valor and nobody will care about that fear the enemy has, while the Sleeper can go into town hand to hand or spell-casting to deal some proper demon/undead killing.


Also notice that many nations can either recruit or use national summons to get very affordable and yet nice thug-chassises.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

You must be getting some great discounts in those sacred Pangaean groves Jarkko :) Since Flying Boots are 10 Air and if by Heroic Blade you mean the new Hero's Blade in CBM 1.6, then that comes in at 10 Earth as well. (both 7 with a Hammer of course)

All of which sadly puts the price of your thug up by quite a bit :( (not that I wanted to ruin Mr.Thug's day in any way)

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

If you're going for an archer-type deal, Crystal Amazons come to mind with just the raw amount of precision they can bring to the table for their cost. Yes, there are some that can reach higher precision values, but these girls don't cost any gems to recruit.

With an Eye of Aiming and self buffing Aim, a Crystal Sorceress in CBM gets to 23 Precision (over the Scout's 15 with just an Eye and 20 with Wind Guide on top.). Add Boots of Quickness (Shroud of the Battle Saint optional if you have a D4+ or W9+ bless.) and stick on whatever bow seems appropriate. Bows of War are great for general use and the Sorceresses can forge the things themselves. In larger armies, they make good communion slaves, since they don't need to cast any other spells.

Crystal Priestesses are usually a cheaper alternative to the sorceresses in larger armies with existing mage support. They don't have the stealthiness or obscenely cheap pricetag that Scouts do, but they have their uses. Since they're all priests, they can bless themselves without needing a Shroud and are much cheaper in the long run than Sorceresses thanks to their Sacred status. In addition to the aforementioned D4+ and W9+ that will directly affect their archery, they can also benefit from an Earth bless so they can be better communion slaves, and an Astral bless of any strength, since extra MR is always a plus and the Twist Fate can be a lifesaver in certain instances. Like all humans though, they are very fragile. Beware of Earthquake, Rain of Stones and, in the case of Sorceresses and 50% of Priestesses, Mind Duel as well.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Try a sleeper with two fire bolas, boots of strenght and bear claw. 4 shots per turn at 18 prec, each with range and damage of 27 plus fire bond. Put three of those behind your frontline and put on your evil grin.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Oops, you are correct. Checked the things in-game, but didn't notice there was a Steel-oven where I crafted the test items in an old save-game (and even then I failed to count to three properly... them are hard numbers after two, I tell you that).

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Would boots of quickness make sleeper fire more then 4 shots?

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

And fire bolas..do they fire damage?

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Boots of quickness (any quickness spells/blesses in general) do allow to cast item spell twice, but do not allow to fire ranged weapon twice.

Fire bolas do fire damage, so 100% fire resistance units are immune.

But really, don't equip unit with fire bolas with any other items - it's just a waste of gems.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Even with forge of ancients?
As for bolas - it's treated as a ranged weapon, not a wand?
If boots can turn 4 shots to 8 it doesn't sound bad.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

They will not fire their bow if the communion master casts. Slaves do nothing after a master casts, and since firing a bow happens after spellcasting, you can't take advantage of unit orders like you could if they were spellcasting.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Actually they don't seem to do fire damage, they kill abysians just fine for example, shackles them too if they don't kill.

With a strength bonus of 10, you add 10 range and damage to each shot. Up to 40 more damage per turn isn't a waste of gems to me. With each shot doing 27 damage you punch through most armour easily, it's a whole other ballpark than 17.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Does "flaming arrows" spell work with slings, javelins and fire bola item? Fire bola spam would be interesting if it's affected by flame arrows.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

slings and javelins, definitely yes. fire bolas, no idea, never tested, but I don't see a reason why it shouldn't, unless flaming arrows doesn't work with items.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

No, it doesn't work with it.

Flaming arrows only works with a set number of defined weapons. That isn't one of them. Nothing dynamic or rule based about it.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

For example, it works with the bow of war. It does not, however, work with blowpipes. Here is the full list of fiery ranged weapons (note that the bow of war is the only magic item listed as having a specific fiery form):

Fire Arbalest
Fire Bola
Fire Boulder
Fire Boulder
Fire Bow of War
Fire Chakram
Fire Composite Bow
Fire Crossbow
Fire Flare
Fire Javelin
Fire Long Bow
Fire Short Bow
Fire Shuriken
Fire Sling
Fire Small Bow

For this and other interesting information, such as what all units are considered to be made of stone for example, DOWNLOAD EDI'S DATABASE. No one can tell you all of this stuff off the top of their head, but the database can!

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Is that small bow true? I thought consensus was it didn't work!

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Yes, you are right, just tested it, they really do kill fire immune units.

This is not an RPG, where your "pet" must have the best equipment and no empty slots - this is a wargame and you need to get maximum efficiency for minimal cost. Yes, bola would have a better range, yes it would hit opponent harder, but it is still a missile weapon and could be deflected by a shield, or countered by air shield.
Besides very next turn same abysians could cast Fire Storm, or, if enemy has strong death - darkness with hordes of undead, or airdrop few thugs, or SC with Solar Brilliance, etc. Result the same: commanders with fire bolas end up dead, because they are expendable units, and doubling the cost of expendable unit is a waste of gems.

Baalz had written a very good guide about choosing the right equipment for thugs: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=41970
I recomend you to read it if you didn't - it really helped me at some point of understanding the game.:)

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Baalz guide is excellent, there is no question about that. He points out well that the key is to have something economic who can survive long enough to dish out proper damage. A thug has to survive long enough to be able to deal enough damage to break the enemy, I think that is the message of his guide.

However, Baalz does mention only briefly of the possibility of using thugs with armies. Perhaps it is too obvious to be mentioned more thoroughly, but some people seem to forget those friendly troopers on the field *also* makes the thug live longer. Why waste gems on crowd-control items, if you intend to use the thug as a defensive damage dealer who operates from behind friendly PD, or some tough body-guards who can take lots of damage?

A spesific thug is not the answer to all possible questions or problems. Thus making blanket statements such as "Don't equip unit with XXX with any other items - it's just a waste of gems" just simply don't float. If that item on that spesific thug for that spesific task becomes considerably better with another item, then you are wasting your gems if you do not equip that other item too. Why waste gems on something that does not work, when you could make it much better with a few more gems?

The thing to consider is the bang for the bucks, so to say. If you think something is not worth it, then don't use that. If that something keeps winning you battle after battle, then I for one believe it to be very much worth it.

You can also counter any given set-up with something else. But when the question is cheap thugs, then you don't really attempt to prove the counter is an airdropping SC spesifically tooled to kill that one thug, do you? Of course he would be, thugs are not super-combatants. But if you forced your enemy to spesifically tool up a SC to take out a thug, then who was the smart one? Isn't that exactly the time when you bring on your SC-hunting thug, and maybe, just maybe, you could use it to your advantage if you know your opponent will retaliate with a SC or somebody able to cast Flamestorm?

For me the most important thing about Baalz thug-guide is that you have to think outside the box, and there are some excellent examples. But if you quote that as if it was the holy book, and all thoughts outside the guide are heretic, then perhaps *you* should read Baalz Art of Thugging again?

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Jarkko
1) Too many letters, what's your point? You winning battle after the battle because your bola-wielding commanders equipped with boots of strength and bear claw, and you wouldn't win those battles if they were not equipped with it?

2)
Perhaps *you* should read the thread before posting. We are talking about supporters behind the army. I'm not going to airdrop SC on Sleeper with 2 bolas, boots of strength and bear claw, PD will kill him.

3) I never positioned Baalz guides as a holy book or something like that, I just recommended it for reading.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Ok, lets try with less words, if words are so difficult:
You can not make blanket statements that something never works under any condition.

Was that still too many words?

Somebody else using your account to post things while you look the other way? ;) You spesifically said you will use a SC or an Evocation9 spell to take out a cheap thug, no mentioning of PD there :)

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Jarkko

Why do you even post a comment if you do not bother to read the discussion?

I repeat my question, since my "blanket statement" was all about it:

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Gee, I'm not misunderstanding the nature of the game. I have read Baalz thugging guide and I understand those points very well. I don't advocate it because it is some favourite hangup of mine, I do it because I happened to found it very effective early on in some MP games as EA Agartha(with Ancient lords) and Machaka(sleepers). I say a little strength bonus is often what makes the bolas worth it, simple as that.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Yes, actually this is what I'm saying. But only early game against the right opposition of course. I wouldn't use it after I've got better research done, but that is true for many tactics so...

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Are you saying a commander equipped with a Bow of Accuracy and Boots of Quickness will not fire twice in a single turn? I could have sworn I saw one of the commanders in the hero army (random event) doing just that.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

It's really quite strange to here that some strategy never worth using under any conditions.

Let model a hypothetical situation. You have forge of ancients,good gem income. You have a lot of researches who eat all your budget (you spend remains on hiring bloodhunters) and you want them to continue research instead of fighting. You are advanced with research (you can reach all 9 levels before starting any war). You can not create an army. You have very strong casters. But you can't use casters with no chaff. Partially chaff can be done by blood if you have it. But if not, or not enough?
One of ideas is just cast dragon masters and dozens of dozens of dragons.
The idea can be to create a second line, who does some damage and also have blocking function with these bolas. Of course not 4+ sleepers, but 20+ and maybe quickened by water magic, and maybe even given some additional equipment which is cheaper with forge. I don't know if it works and if it can be countered harder or easier in comparison to equipping indie commanders with rods of phoenix + penetration items though. But in reality if we think where to spend fire gems on items..mayby massed bolas still have some function as a blocker? High prot/MR thughs can also be an option, but if you play against nation which has good access to soul slay, i'm not sure you can rely just on fat thugs to hold the line. And just do cast dragons for second and third line also doesn't sound like the optimal strategy.

I mean midgame battle where hundreads of units are taking part in a battle from each side

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Fantomen
I understand your point of view, though I still think your commanders with just two bolas would work as good. But again, I'm only telling my opinion.

Mysterio
That archer is an exception.:)

militarist
I'm not telling using bolas is wrong, I'm telling unit using bolas doesn't need additional equipment IMO. You put a lot of gems in your tactic, mass scouts with bolas would be much cheaper and would still work as blockers.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

I didn't test it to make sure, but I seem to recall using flaming arrows with small bow-equipped skinks in a test or an mp game in which it worked. Since that would easily more than double their potential effective damage, it's not a bad direction to go. It should work though.

It should be noted that I listed fire flare as a ranged weapon... it is not. It is a melee attack used by abysian salamanders, I believe. I just failed to remove it from the list when copy/pasting from the database.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Really? So the only commander capable of firing twice when equipped with Boots of Quickness and a forged bow is one with a Bow of Accuracy? I wonder why that is.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

No, he's saying the Troll Archer in Bogus's group is an exception. This may be true, much about Bogus's group is an exception.

But I'm not sure this is an exception. I just ran a quick test with a Lizard Lord, Boots of Quickness & a Bow of War. He definitely fired twice in some rounds. Fired
and moved in others and Fired, moved and fired in one. Similarly with Boots & a Banefire Crossbow, he fired most but not all rounds. And made a partial moves forward.

This matches what I've seen before, particularly with W9 Ancestral Vessels. They would Fire, some of them would advance and some would fire again.

So, I'd say quickness & bows works but not quite as well as you'd expect. This may qualify as a bug. Either firing twice as often or no effect would be understandable, but I can't justify this weirdness.

Re: cheapest summonable thug
 

Quickness lets you fire twice with a missile weapon in some rounds, yeah. This has been observed many times.