Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

The summonable Thug thread got me to thinking it would be neat to have a thread where people list units and other people respond by suggesting affordable(or expensive) magic items and a sample scripting that turns the unit into a thug.

I will get the ball rolling.

MA Man's Bard

I've been kicking around the idea of turning MA Man bards into thugs. Not ranged thugs, but a unit that can mix it up a little up front. How would you turn a bard into a melee thug?

Remember to post a unit you would like to see turned into a thug as well (If you like).

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

As the bard can self-buff with Eagle eye, it would be natural to have him as a ranged thug.

However (never tried this, but its variation works with Sleepers), if you want him to go up close and personal, then I guess he would work against undead (say Ermor) with Wardens set to Guard Commander (and somebody behind doing the blessing and banishing). Give the Bard a Herald Lance (will pump the standard ability to a healthy 18) and some cheap armour+shield (shield of valor might be in order, in case there are some missiles flying around), script Eagle Eyes, Song of Bravery, Solar Rays x 3, Attack Rear. If you have three such bards each with 10 wardens as their guards in center, that center should never break against undeads (10 guards actually allow them to move forwards with the Attack Rear order).

Can't think of any other use of him up front. I'd place him right behind the front units with a bow fitting the oppositition (for example Bow of War agaisnt massed armies, or Thunderbow vs more tougher opponents). Script Eagle Eyers, Song of Bravery, Fire.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

For reference, the wiki article for the bard.

Differences vs. a "generic" unit:

1) Spy (also means highly stealthy)
2) 11 precision
3) 1N magic
4) the "Standard" effect, rating 10
5) MR 12

While these guys are definitely not going to cut it as solo thugs, they can definitely improve the effectiveness of infantry they are mixed in with. Unfortunately, they don't have much armor themselves. So perhaps give them a suit of cheap armor (maybe black steel or copper plate), script barkskin, mix in a clump of infantry, attack closest, and don't worry too much if they die? You could give them a vine shield and they'd survive much better (as would the surrounding infantry), but that's pretty expensive for a thug that you're going to lose a lot of.

Unfortunately, I don't really see it.

As artillery thugs, though, they can script eagle eyes on top of their already slightly higher precision and go to town. You've probably already got lots of longbows as Man (so Bow of War is less attractive), but bards are stealthy, so there's that...probably better to go with Botulf/Vision's Foe/Lightning Bow and put them on anti-large thug/SC duty.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Good suggestions. Don't forget to post a unit you want turned into a thug. Markata Scout anyone? ;)

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

I was wondering if that d1 flying Indy Mage might thug.

tangent
Would make for an interesting challange. Players get a standard commander and 15 gems of any flavor. Battles would be arena toe to toe with other commanders. Think there was an sc comp years back won by a poison golem.
Ssj

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

I might thug out a bard slightly before sending him off to instill uprisings. So that he can put up a good fight if he gets caught. Some wardens, or druid archers if you can get them, as backup

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Karasu Tengu? It's a summon that seems only to be there for thugdom.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

I think I am going to try a frost brand, vine shield, cat charm and mix him in with some chaff. For script, barkskin, hold, hold, attack closest.

SSJ, are you talking about the Harab Seraph that is found with the raptors as an indy?



The new unit is:



Harab Seraph

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

OK, everyone knows that Pans make great thugs. But they're awfully expensive, especially if you take turmoil. How about Dryads?

What do they have going for them over a standard human (for thugging)?

1) Stealthy
2) 1N, 1H (and thus self-blessable)
3) Awe 3
4) MR16
5) 15AP
6) 12 Def
7) 80G recruit anywhere
8) Full slots

Cons:
1) HP are a bit low for a thug (11)
2) Come with no useful equipment (0 prot unequipped.)

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

So we have:

Karasu Tengu

Dryad

Harab Seraph

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

I use Dryads of the earlier ages (who have H2) as semi-thugs, leading sacred sneakers.

Any sort of cheap armour and vine-shield, frost or fire brand, horror helmet, AMA (if you have access to astral) and a ring of regen (and my favourite, flying boots, but that really requires special things to get the air access). Script Bless, Holy Avenger, attack rear (while the sacred centaurs have attack closest). Works wonders against any non-undead targets or non-barbarians, simply because nobody has the guts to attack her, and if they do half the time they don't get past the AMA, and if they do the armour should help enough to let the ring of regen heal the wounds. By far not the cheapest thug, but so incredibly useful together with berserking sacred centaurs.



If anybody wants to see a markata scout thug in action, I suppose you have seen my video on Aracana the markata scout thug? :) Not cheap, not most likely very useful against a human player, but oh yeah does it feel good when a markata scout chops up Niefel giants left and right :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu6X3ko-5Ho
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQwerXKXFrQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbTSeJu7QaA

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Regarding dryads, those are quotes from some LA pan discussion. The trick being to combine the spellsongs with bodyguards of manikins(tune of dancing death) or dryad hoplites(tune of fear). Perhaps it could work with Tune of growth and minotaur bodyguards for earlier ages?

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Turning a bard into a thug:
Give him an amulet of lycanthropy ... and wait.

Once he's a werewolf, a snakebladder stick, and a vineshield. Between the wearwolf regen and the amulet of lycan, his regen will exceed your poison damage.

If you're lucky.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Yeah. Not much moxie now that I look at him. Perhaps best left spamming skellies.
-ssj

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

He has decent natural precision. You could leverage that at least. Or how about a Standard of the Damn and Eye of Aiming? Mix in with some chaff to leverage the fear effect and life drain some mofos.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Seems a waste not to make use of his flight.

Poison ring, gall bladder, skull amulet. Still leaves room for good armor.
Or maybe some other flyers set to guard commander

Set him in the back flanks so the forward units draw the focus of the enemy. Hold, then Attack archers or attack rear-most?

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Five-fold Angel of Bogarus? (Or whatever it's name is)

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Putting an unarmoured dryad up front in late age is calling for doom, no matter if you equip her with a shield or two. There are very few non-missile indies or PD's out there, and a single arrow hitting the dryad is all that it takes to destroy the whole group; I've tried it quite a few times, and I know it just doesn't float reliably. Unarmoured dryads should IMO stay the heck out from the frontlines.

In earlier ages centaurs and revelers are so marvelous, there is no need for minotaurs except when storming forts. The centaurs (both regulare and the white ones) have enormous staying power, the revelers are quite good too at staying alive (and lots of cheaper than the centaurs). However, if you are not using the centaurs or revelers in a sneaky raiding group, an indy commander with a bow (for example those light cavalry commanders) will be better than a dryad to lead the group (and in many cases I would take some indy sneaker or harpy to lead the group, rather than waste a dryad to the task).

In Late Age I use groups of Black Dryad + 6 dryad hoplites to expand early on, with everything set far back. The Black Dryad is scripted Bless x 2 (as she has just H1, she is likely to miss some of the hoplites else), Spells; she will start to fear the opposition which thus improves the survival of the dryad hoplites to nearly insane levels (fear + awe is just marvelous, and the dryad hoplites have excellent stats and good gear too to further improve their staying power), while staying well out of range of the hostile archers. The expansion groups can later on be grouped together for a really impressive central block of dryad hoplites.



In my opinion the dryads, to be thugs that is, really need decent equipment to make them shine. As such, they are not cheap thugs, but in spesific situations they really do shine (but still need the help of the berserking troops). As spell-casters in armies they are useful for other reasons, but that was not what this thread is about :)

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Warrior Smith from EA Ulm...

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Read Baalz' EA Ulm guide - it has loads of Warrior Smith thuggery ideas in there.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

For the late-game it relies on earth-gem generation and the earth booster from Bloodstones, so not working in CBM1.6 anymore.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

The guide as a whole is now flawed, but I think the base ideas on how to thug Smiths are pretty much valid.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

How about the CBM 1.6 Boar Lord? Cap only, but then Marverni can get Druids and all its other commanders from any fort.

Costs 50gp, and comes with:

16 HP

12 Protection

14 Strength

15 Attack and Defense

Berserker +5! (so that's what, 17 Prot, 19 Strength, 20 Attack, but only 10 Defense - depending on equipment, when berserk?).

Is H1 (so can self bless).

Has Reinvigoration +4 (and his base melee encumbrance is 5, so is that like 10 when berserk? then he damn well needs that +4, and maybe then-some?).

Is naturally armed with the Druid Blessed Axe, which does 7 AP damage (-1 attack and defense though), and causes Entanglement.

That's a very interesting package for only 50gp. It would be a shame to swap out his interesting main weapon (so would you?), it seems. And tactically, how would you deploy him? Obviously seems great to counter fear-inducing enemies, as long as he goes berserk before getting killed... What else might this guy be useful for, and if so, what minor gifts would you bestow upon him?

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Berserk encumbrance is only +2 regardless of the berserk value. He might be doable with just something like a girdle of might, maybe a cat charm or something.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Ah, thanks for that info on berserk encumbrance, rdonj! Well, this makes the Boar Lord (CBM1.6) even more intriguing. So with a couple of trinkets or some such (or naked, right out of the box?), how would folks use him?

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

I wouldn't bother with cat charm. It just bumps his berserk defense up to tolerable. It wouldn't save him.

I don't have the game in front of me, but I'd try to boost his protection.
Replace his armor if you're using him without mages. Protection/LoS/Ironskin if you can.
Luck pendant?, something for reinvig.
Minor Earth bless might be sufficient.

Does he have a shield or is that Axe 2-handed?

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

And the standard barbarian leader? Any hints to how to thug it? Preferably with 10 gems or less (assuming a Hammer for forging).

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

give them an E9 bless, (helps the druids too).
Add a bracer of defense and luck pendant at Con level 2.
Have 2 of the sacreds guard him. cast bless, attack.

research Alt 3. Add a S1/N1 druid. set caster 1 space from the Boar lord/2 sacreds, druid casts Body Ethereal/Protection.

At con 4/Alt 4 replace luck pendant with lycanthrope amulet on the boar lord
Add another S1/N1 druid to the group.
1st druid casts body ethereal/protection/eagle eye
2nd druid casts luck/bless/eagle eye

Gives protection 30 ethereal lucky regenerating beserked boar lord.


How abaout one of the Kappa commanders that MA Shinuyama gets?

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

It's 1 handed, and he comes with a standard shield. I'd go with a nature shield (preferably vine or eye) dropping 1 from encumbrance) and a barkskin amulet (pushing protection to respectable levels with off the shelf armor + berserk) - that, plus a minor earth bless should result in net 0 encumbrance after self-blessing. 50G + 10-15N gems before hammers. Should be much more survivable with any of the following, still relatively cheap upgrades:
* Some form of regeneration. If you've got an N bless, score!
* Stone boots (vs. the barkskin, no point in both)
* Pendant of Luck

If you don't have a minor E bless, Girdle of Might or Nature boots (birch or messenger) work too (in which case you might as well use the Lycanthrope amulet for the regen and start off berserk.)

Of course, for crowd control he'd need an area effect weapon, so he'd be a better anti-thug thug with his armor-piercing weapon and high strength - depending on what he's up against, if he's not going to survive a hit anyway, you could just send as-is.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

How about a CBM 1.6 MA Caelum Storm General?

Hit Points: 11 Size: 3
Attack Skill: 12 Defence Skill: 16
Strength: 10 Protection: 14
Precision: 11 Magic Resistance: 11
Morale: 14 Encumbrance: 8
Map Movement: 3 Action Points: 6
Equipment
Weapon: Ice Blade
Armor: Ice Cuirass
Armor: Ice Helmet
Armor: Ice Aegis

Is he good to go with just a frost brand?

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

What about Abyssian Demonbreeds? Both EA and MA are interesting, but mainly the mage version. Is it possible to make a cost-effective thug out of this one?

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

I found an indi site with that allowed me to recruit gnomes.

I gave them a black heart and a bloodstone each and just dropped them in my opponents capital and had them summon earth elementals during the assassination attempts.

On a related note, astral 9 blesses are the best assassin blesses. No more frozen heart first turn deaths!

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

This is only true if you also gave every assassin a shroud.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

That sounds pretty nasty. Is the bless for sacreds you gave the black heart to or actual blessable assassins? If it is the latter, which ones?

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Does anyone bar Aby get sacred recruitable assassins?

Edit: C'tis maybe?

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

And what would you give Skrattis ? I'm actually playing Utgard (sp game) and don't know what would suit them well. I mean, they're obvious thugs, but it's so tempting to give them full equipment. If it's possible to boost them with only a few gems...

Shroud of the Battle Saint seems OK, even with minor blesses (Actually I've a F4A4W4E4S6N4 bless). A pendant of luck too.

Otherwise, I miss ideas of for cheap and efficient items.

Boots of the messenger if no reinvigoration bless ?
If no interesting bless, a robe of shadows ? (but it's 10 pearls and 0 protection).
Frost brand ? But the cold protection will be useless, maybe an enchanted sword to boost att/def.

Shield : I guess a raw hide shield or the cheap astral shield will do the job. Or a lucky coin, it spares the pendant of luck.

That would be 20 N/S gems without forge bonus.

Any better ideas ? With a preference for Utgard's national paths ( S N D W B )

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Empoisoners aren't sacred, but have D1N1. Shrouds of the Battle Saint can be easily forged by Shamans.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Hang on hang on. You can't start talking about skrattis in this thread. You could talk about Jotun scouts maybe. Or shuten doji. Or cavemen chiefs.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Out of the ones listed recently, the Shuten Doji and the Barbarian Chief are two I would be interested in as well :).

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

A Caveman Champion with a fleshwound axe (or whatever the 5 blood one is called) and a cheap suit of armour might be some help against the cold giants. Cold resistance 50%, relatively survivable with armour and 20-odd hps, enough strength to hurt the giants, and the axe will leave hopefully leave a fair few of them with chest wounds. 6 gems with a hammer, it's not a massive commitment. Mix them in with smaller troops to take hits and lower giant defence.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Take a look at baalz's guide. But I am way in favor of dual wielding blood thorns, and probably AMR.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Great, thanks. Didn't thought of the Axe, seems like good stuff. :)

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

A Leo? (LA Pythium Mythraist heretic with F1) He has good stats for human and comes with armor and sword...
Vanherse/Helcarl/Dis? They are Vans and would probably be good - but Vanjarls are so much better! The question is - is there a cheap way to use them as something other than troop leaders. I thought about using missile weapons, but am not sure...
Amazons? I mean Priestesses and Sorceresses of various independent Amazon tribes. Of course, they are mostly useful for magic diversity - but did anybody use them as thugs?

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

I am in an MP game as Helheim and I have started recruiting a couple of Vanherses to be archers. With A1 you can self buff Aim, and they start with Prec 14 or so. The only equipment you need is the bow itself; these guys should stay in the back shooting, behind a screen of PD or whatever else is on the battlefield. So they are not thugs as such, but they are a way to use a cheaper commander instead of the ubiquitous Vanjarl. It's a side strategy, about 60-80% of my commanders are Vanjarls with golden shield & brand. I should add that I'm using an E9N4 bless.

Helcarls are actually pretty good for initial expansion, and do nearly as well as the Vanjarls as thugs early on. Unfortunately what sends the Vanjarl from good to awesome is Mistform. So one could have a bunch of Helcarls and Helhirdings and have a Hangadrott apply Fog Warriors. But at that point, again, these are not thugs, they're just very good line troops.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Best leo thug would be phoenix pyre. Give him a crystal heart if you absolutely feel required to give him gear.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

But he can't cast it! :)

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

huh? why not? just give him fire gems

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

He'd suck with pyre, because he'd have insane fatigue just from casting it.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Well, he sucks as a thug generally. But he's cheap enough to throw 5-6 of them at a starting army and blow it up using pyre.

We have demonstrated that multiple gems will remove fatigue btw.. so if you give him 4-5 gems you might be able to control the fatgue question. I'm uncertain of that.

But like I said... if you feel compelled, give him the heart which does reinvig 10.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

He's only got one level in Fire magic, so is only able to use one fire gem, so won't be able to reduce his casting fatigue by burning extra gems.