Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

Is there any way to fix up Tartarians ? Healer-ability and GoH only work on non-undead, correct?

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

GoH and the Chalice work on Tarts. You are correct about the healer ability.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

How about Arcos Priestess....will she heal the feeble mind and other afflictions on Tarts?

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

no. like foodstamp just said, healers don't work

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

In order to balance Tartarians and prevent the game from becoming a race for the chalice/GoH, I would like to see (although it really couldn't be modded in) afflictions replaced by progressive Shattered Soul. So Tarts start off with Shattered Soul 25, and every turn have a (drn minus drn) added to their Shattered Soul, so eventually they become 100% insane and need to be put down, but everyone's in the same boat with them.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

This will make the race even more important, since you'll need more fresh Tarts each turn to compete with growing insanity. If you will be able to secure pool of unreasoned tarts without afflictions by winning the race, you will be ahead of others even more than now.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

Will fairy queens not heal Tarts? I could have sworn that they do; in a game now I have 2 set to always heal, and monthly-ritual tart casters. I am getting lots of affliction free tarts, although I havent been keeping track of whether I am just summoning them that way, or if ones I have sitting around are being healed.

EDIT -

Couldn't tarts be balanced by just making them more expensive? Or would that just increase the gap between huge death income nations vs medium/low death income races? Maybe give them a small chance per turn to be called back to tartarus? Make them even less reliable?

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

But if you have a D7 caster, getting more tarts isn't the hard part. 10 D gems is really minimal compared to the cost of other SCs. The nation with the best Tarts will still have a substantial advantage, but not as big of one as the nation with the Chalice or GoH does now.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

You would think right? Or just making them less powerful. But no, people always go for the sideways attempts to balance them. Make them mad, make GoR more expensive, make the equipment they use more expensive, make death boosters more expensive.

I think people inherently enjoy tarts being stupidly cost effective. Even as troops they're a bargain.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

tarts are just silly. for only 10 death gems you get the *best* summonable troop possible, and with further investment(GoR, items, GoH/Chalice) you get the *best* SCs and very diversified magic paths! the only balancing factor is that everyone has access to them, and death magic isn't that hard to bootstrap into even with no death magic.

however I must disagree with you guys that making them more expensive will balance them. quite the contrary Imho. making them more expensive means that nations with no death at all(besides bootstrapping that is) would be at a severe disadvantage due to not having enough death gems to get hordes of tarts. death nations start death site searching a lot earlier and usually also have some natural death income from their capital, so they'd still be able to summon many tarts...

if you want to balance tarts just weaken them Imho. the insanity can stay as long as they're still the best choice for SCs(besides wishing for unique SCs perhaps) and maybe lower their chance to start feebleminded, so even those who didn't win the race to GoR/Chalice would still have a decent amount of non feebleminded tarts to work with...

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

Because Tarts are the way to ultimate magic diversity, having the chance to have lots of tarts is cool. It makes the endgame include the puzzle of "I have x random magic paths, what can I do with this?" Also, there are already rare, powerful SCs--the existence of common SCs with other drawbacks is a fairly cool thing.

Perhaps there could be more types of Tart to rebalance them and make them more closely resemble what a cast of defeated gods would be. Take most of the magic paths away from the Titan and Titaness, and have the tart chassis that gets 3-2-2 randoms be a Great Sage. Ultimate magic diversity, totally not a SC.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

Or you guys could try out Llamabeast's Endgame Diversity Mod which was made to fix this exact issue (tarts being the only SC option)

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

Or we could reduce the cost of generally overpriced national endgame summons to make them worth using and add some diversity to the endgame.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

I totally support 30d tarts and 5n GoR! GoR for everything!

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

I think the reason they made tarts so cheap is for rapid end game cleanup. This is great for SP if you want the option, but it is predictable and annoying in almost all end game situations in multiplayer.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

Actually, that is a really good idea (the 5N GoR especially). There's lots of stuff that would make interesting commanders (OK, I'm reviewing my turn in Mooseknight right now and wishing I had the nature gems to spend GoRing an Umbral), but 20 (or even 15) Nature gems is quite a fair amount.

I think there's substantial value in a cheap SC with severe and unavoidable drawbacks. There are other things we can do with Tarts that would weaken them relatively. For example:

GoR doesn't work on them. You don't get one of the 1/5 who are already commanders, summon another. That would weaken Tarts overall without changing the relative power of nations with more Death gems.
Instead of Shattered Soul (which still makes them useful on defense), they sometimes get Lost in Time and Space.
Tarts Leave After A While, as the magical bonds holding them on this plane weaken and they plunge back into Tartarus.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

Cheap Tarts are actually balanced better. That lets those who don't have the Chalice and/or GoH summon enough to get useful ones.
If they were sufficiently expensive then they'd only be worthwhile if you could cure all you got and whoever could hold onto the Chalice/GoH would dominate.

If you could change mechanics to balance them better, I'd make them uncurable, even by the Chalice/GoH.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

I agree this is a good mod, and it adds flavor to the game.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

I think more expensive and incurable is the way I'd go.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

More expensive and incurable just raises the luck factor of what chassis types you end up with and what afflictions they come with. Tarts are a needed end game balance mechanism to unlock magic paths for certain nations and shouldn't be constrained too tightly. Adding in other summons is a much better idea IMO, as it increases strategic chassis selections as opposed to increasing the importance of luck. There are also a reasonable amount of counters available to tarts IMO.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

I vote for llamabeasts end game diversity mod to become as standard as CBM.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

has it been playtested enough for that yet? I like the idea in theory, but I think the mod is a bit new for that still, no?

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

Yeah it needs more testing. Being an endgame mod, it hasn't seen much actual MP yet.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

Yes, it has to be play tested more. But I predict more and more games will start up using the mod, until it is used as much CBM.

I for one would prefer to sign up for games that use it right now, as opposed to those that do not.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

I am making it a mission to make more small (6 players or less) games for people with easy to use mod bundles and maps included. The mod bundles will all have endgame diversity in.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

The endgame mod looks great so far.I think this is the right direction to balance Tarts.I predict most new games will use CBM +endgame mod as a standard pretty soon.

@ Micah

Just want to tell you, that i plan to start another attack on your snake record pretty soon:D

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

Now why would you want to go and do that Mardagg? Do you have any idea how cranky Micah becomes when he's not Snake Champ?

And it's the decent, innocent folks on the IRC who will suffer the consequences of it. As they will be left fighting a losing battle to control and calm the inevitable rages Micah always suffers from during those brief intervals that he isn't the Snake Champ.

So for the sake of the world, please reconsider your imminent course of action :yield:

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

What is a snake champ?

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

30d for tarts is still cheap. Its 100s for most other viable competitors, and those need GoR 100% of the time, not 80%.

30d is still cheaper than national options like Dai Oni, Rudra, and so forth.

Basically, they are far too cheap right now, excluding other options from consideration.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

But it's not 30D for Tarts. (Or even 10 or 15 or whatever it is in the latest CBM.)

It's that for a chance at a usable Tart. It's a really good deal if you've got the Chalice or GoH, but if you don't, most of them are afflicted even if they're not feebleminded. And of those that aren't feebleminded, a good chunk don't have the slots to be SC material or wind up with poor paths for it.

And it's a significant investment for most nations to get mages high enough to cast it. You'll need several casters since you'll need a bunch to get useful ones.

All those other options: You cast them, you get a good SC. Guaranteed. With Wish, you can even pick the one you want. Tartarian Gate is a gamble.
I don't think I'd pay 30D for one shot at a good Tartarian, unless I had the Chalice or GoH.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

tarts are still usable as troops even before they are gor'd.
Monstrums fly and have 300+hp...

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

Basically, one way to check their balance would be to see what price you'd have to pay for a Dai Oni, at 55 death gems, to be as good a buy as a tartarian. Then make Tartarians slightly more expensive that that so that a Dai Oni is a better choice for Sninuyama.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

@Graeme - Why would you balance the entire game around a single overpriced national summon?

I maintain that having good, cheap, badass summons as a universal endgame option is an essential ingredient for play balance given how wildly imbalanced nations are against each other, and the luck of the draw inherent in picking up indie mages with non-national paths. Choking off one of the major factors balancing the playing field is a bad idea. People are also fond of overstating how effective tarts are, the non GoR ones aren't all that, especially if they're feebleminded and rocking a 13 base MR for enemy charm/slay spells. The latest CBM also knocked their HP down some.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

Well, I wouldn't necessarily balance the entire game around them (They are definetly overpriced compared to wraith lords for example), I just would like for more than two nations per game to have access to effective summonable endgame units. This why I like the idea behind Llamabeast's EDM, even if I'm not certain that it's perfectly balanced in its current state.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

It would be pretty interesting if the Shattered soul tag made it so that the unit would go insane and Attack the province it was in, like when you wish for one of the Doom horrors or something, except at a lower chance than 50/50 of course.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

I think that's the problem right there. You can't set a fair price for nations without the Chalice/GoH without having tarts be too cheap for nations with one of those. An easy way to solve this would be to have tarts arrive without afflictions. Then you'd have one model to use in setting their price in relation to other options.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

True, though I like the flavor of them being crippled. Of it being a gamble that you'll get something usable. Though much of that would remain, with the random paths and random types.

Is that moddable? If so, I'd like to see it tried. If not, it won't happen without a code change, which means it won't happen. And I'd prefer my previous suggestion of making their afflictions completely unhealable.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

Yes, it's definitely moddable. In Momentum 2 I had them arrive without afflictions, as commanders, and without shattered soul.

I also let specific types of tarts be summoned, but I wouldn't do that again. I agree that part of the fun is not knowing what type you'll get and, as Psycho pointed out in that game, only a few types would get summoned if there's a choice.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

I don't think the fact that they arrive afflicted is a problem. You need to price other options against tarts assuming the person summoning them has the chalice or GoH - because people looking for alternatives will be trying to counter the person who is using tarts and has one or both. They need those other options to be competitive with affliction-free tarts.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

But then you make them an option limited to one or two nations. Only worth using if you can cure them.

Which might be fine if you're using the endgame diversity mod, so everyone has some options, but without it those without strong national summons will be too limited.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

An alternative to GoH chalice? I dont know anything about item moding so maybe its not possible but would it hurt the game a lot if there was a expensive but not unique chalice in game?

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

The Chalice could be made non-unique (Constr 6) and it's price and path requirements raised.

That would be an interesting change.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

thejeff: i'm in support of work like the endgame Diversity mod - more endgame options is a good thing.

And I don't think its a matter of limiting options to cost tarts appropriately. Rather, making tarts too cheap means whomever gets GoH or the Chalice has a major advantage over other players rather than just an additional useful tool.

Honestly, 30d tarts strikes me as possibly a little cheap, but much better than the 12d ones we have now. Yeah, you could get nothing but monstrum (ugg), but chances are you get something else in there, and everything else is worth significantly more than 12d.

(Honestly, monstrum aren't that bad, its just they really are a troop not a commander. I'd totally summon them at 12d each if I knew I was getting them, but they need quantity to overcome their lack of quality. Maybe they should be moved to a separate summons? With current modding tools you'd need to copystats them to a new number, then replace the old number with something else - Undead ivy kings? Zombie faerie queens? I dunno, should be easy to come up with *something*)

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

I would love to see some viable alternative end game units to Tartarians. It sort of ruins the aesthetic flavor of some nations to have to resort to releasing twisted insane undead titans from their eternal prison...

The present (CBM) costs are 15 for Tarrasque, 12 for Tartarian, and 25 for Abomination/Iron Dragon, 15 for Juggernaut which seems quite balanced for their basic stats.

The problem, essentially, with Tartarians isn't their basic stats, but the fact that, once healed, they have a lovely undead body which means 0 encumbrance and have a full contingent of items.

Therefore, I would propose that affording alternative creatures more item slots would make them more interesting end game since if you can't hold items... You can't do anything.

Abominations and Dragons could then, therefore, be upgraded to allow them to wield weapons, have helmets, and then 3-4 misc. slots which would bring them to 7 slots. Obviously, no boots or armor since that's rather ludicrous from a thematic perspective, but dragons do have claws and abominations have tentacles with which they could grasp something. In fact, an abomination could have more than 2 weapon slots...

Providing them with some funky random magic paths and Feeblemind by default (since they were just weird animals after all) would be appropriate so you couldn't just GoR them. The fact that they could be healed without unusual magic is a bonus above a tart.

The idea here would be to add equipment slots and random paths to make all of the creatures relatively well balanced without resorting to gem cost to balance them--if, per se, all the monsters cost the same amount.. What would we have to set the item slots/paths at to make them of similar value end game even though their stats are a bit different? I would say that you wouldn't want a gem cost differential to be more than 10-15 gems difference between the cheapest and the most expensive.

The other alternative to adding equipment is to add on multiple useful abilities that one usually gets from equipment onto the creatures and factor that cost into their basic cost:

Ethereal, Lucky, Damage Shield, various immunities, more attacks, re-invigoration, etc.

Diversifying the end game summon market while respecting the above might also yield promising results... Summon Gamera anyone? (It's a flying Japanese turtle with rockets in its butt). Having both cheap, no frills rank-and-file units and expensive, multi-ability commander end game units for other magic paths would be interesting. Just go grab your Magic the Gathering Cards for ideas... Avoiding unique summons is best.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

Umm... where's a dragon going to stick a sword? Maybe hold it in it's mouth? It doesn't have hands, you know. And where's an Abom going to put a helmet? Maybe tape it on top of it's amorphous form, where it will fall off?

The slot limits are there because of the limitations of the creature's physiques.

Re: Fixing up Tartarians ?
 

lol. That's why I put forth the idea that, if you don't like the aesthetic quality of a dragon wielding a sword (keep in mind that if you look at D&D dragons, they have little hand-like claws like a Tyrannosaurus, but the Tarrasque doesn't). You can give them powers of certain commonly selected items. Let's see what people like on their SCs....

Brand swords: Check! Tarrasque has an AoE breath attack. Give it more ammo!

Luck: Traditionally Astral, but the Four-leaf clover is still kinda naturey... We could do that...

Retribution Shield... Hmmm.. we can't enrobe it in fire... How about a poison cloud or poison armor? It wouldn't be too far fetched to state that a tarrasque might have poisonous fluids inside...

The biggest thing, however, is the enc-0 of the Tartarian which is quite unique to undead, and should remain so, but in order to mitigate it's effect, higher-level monsters should need a little bump of re-invigoration to offset that somewhat.

The magic paths and corresponding Feeblemind affliction and possibly even Insanity of some level if you like since creatures that big might fancy themselves gods in their own right and might not like your ideas all the time...

Now, when looking into magic paths, they should be lower-order paths in the 10% - 25% range to make certain that they have a similar variety to those of Tartarians.