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Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
Quick background: I am a humanities major, who did a thesis on that darn Sun Tzu guy, applying his integration of morale to modern warfare. It's also used in management. From day one, I was able to gather information about the Ossetian War, that's the one with Georgia, Ossetia, Russia and Abkhazia. By the title, the astute reader knows that most of the fighting took place in Ossetia. Roughly 75-85%, depending on who you ask.
I was looking for a simulator to help me sim the war, and see how accurately the outcome could be predicted, and then I heard about a new patch to a game I liked, this one. BTW - the patch is awesome :D And I decided to start taking baby steps to simulating the war, using WinSPMBT. However a word of caution: while I do have most of the correct ORBAT, I am a complete newb in editing, mapping, etc. Any help would be appreciated, and help is needed already, see a few paragraphs below! First a quick plan: initially I want to take a sample Georgian Battalion vs. a sample Russian Battalion, 591 and 501 men respectively, and have them duke it out over a map of the Caucasian Region, (Komsomolskoye). It should be a meeting engagement. Meanwhile, I am hoping to create a mini-war, using only 10% of each sides forces, and replecating the Ossetian Region where most of the fighting took place on a mini-map, which is 200x160, as mapping 2575 kilometers of land is not very appealing. Here's an example of how I am planning to downsize it, using tanks: despite what you may have been told about Russia having 1,200 tanks involved, the US spotted only 150 Russo-Ossetian tanks. Of these, 15 belonged to Ossetia, 10 T-55 and 5 T-72B. Russia introduced 30 T-72BM, 29 T-62 and 76 T-72B tanks. Georgia had 210 total active tanks, of which 180 were used in the war: 30 T-72 Sim-I, 70 Czech T-72s, 60 Ukrainian T-72s, and 20 upgraded versions of T-55AM. BTW, here's a great website http://www.deagel.com/equipment/Main...2-a000770.aspx for tracking tank purchases. The Russians also left 31 T-72s in Georgia. (The website says that Ukraine sold 91 T-72s, but upon closer examination you notice that 1 T-72 was sold after the war.) Thus, I would have Russia with 1 T-55, 3 T-62s, 8 T-72Bs, and 3 T-72BMs and Georgia with 3 T-72 SIM-Is, 7 T-72s (Czech) 6 T-72s (Ukrainian)and 2 T-55AMs. The map will downsize on distances between major cities, and will only feature one city, Tskhinvali, fully. More on the map later. Thus, I give you the Order of Battle for Battalions: Russian Battalion: HQ, Staff & Supply 1st Company 2nd Company 3rd Company Mortar Battery Weapons company HQ, Staff & Supply (For an active tactical battalion, the Russians sent their HQ Staff to command Companies. Thus the company command unit is a part of HQ staff command, assigned to, and under, companies.) HQ – 6 men Sniper Team – 2 men (can also be used to clear area/deliver commands if radio communications break down) BTR – 80 (Russian Battalions, with slight exceptions, have standardized vehicles. For this “typical” battalion, I chose the BTR-80. In the Ossetian War, (which is what the war should be called, Chechen War, Ossetian War, just makes sense,) there were five regiments, roughly of 2,200 men, as compared to Georgian regiments of 3,300 men, and also five, but more on that later. The Russians had the 135th, 503rd, 693rd of the 58th Army and 70th and 71st of the 42nd Division. The 70th and 71st had BTR-70s, the 135th had a mixture of BMP-1s and BMP-2s, the 503rd had BTR-80s, and the 693rd had BMP-2s. 4 ammunition trucks, (MT-LB) and 4 medical trucks. The Russians used Urals for medical trucks. Total: 18 (58) men, 12 units, BTR-80A (58-18=40 men and trucks left on base) 1st Company: Company Command + Igla (9 men) on BTR-80 (2 men) (I used the infantry provided in the BTR ORBAT, and picked the one that was more suitable for infantry v infantry fighting, as Chechens had a lot more infantry than tanks.) 1st Platoon Command + RPG-29 Vampir (standard RPGs for Russians in the Ossetian war were the RPG-29 Vampir (vampire) and RPG-22. 1st Platoon Command Support + Igla (Iglas were standard portable AA guns used by both sides in the war.) 1st Platoon Support Unit + Sniper + MG (I picked the Pecheneg, because it was the MG that was most likely used; additionally the active platoon support units had snipers that could operate independently.) 3 BRT-80s as support 2nd Platoon Command + RPG-29 Vampir 2nd Platoon Comm. Supp. + Igla 2nd Platoon Support + Sniper + MG 3 BTR-80s as support 3rd Platoon Command + RPG-29 Vampir 3rd Platoon Comm. Supp. + Igla 3rd Platoon Support + Sniper + MG 3 BTR-80s as support Total: 110 men, 33 units, 10 BTR-80As 2nd Company: Same as 1st Company Total: 110 men, 33 units, 10 BTR-80s 3rd Company: Same as 1st Company Total: 110 men, 33 units, 10 BTR-80s Mortar Battery: Russia trusted their battalion commanders with mortars, who usually granted the company commanders’ requests to use mortars when appropriate. The company commanders in turn relied on the platoon commanders. In short, the Russians were able to demonstrate effective use of mortars when and where needed, whereas the Georgians focused on heavy bombardments, that sometimes hit their own units. Georgian 120mm mortars were under brigade command, while the Russian ones were under battalion command. The Russian mortar batteries usually had 6 82mm Mortars and 3 “Vasilek” auto-82mm mortars. The Vasileks often received GAZ-66 vehicles for support. Additionally the mortar battery had 6 120mm mobile mortars, the 2S12 Sani, which were deployed with the HQ. Vasilek Mortar Battery – 3 auto-82mm mortars (15 men) 3 GAZ-66 vehicles used as Vasilek mounts (6 men) (They were also usually used to carry the regular, 82mm mortars.) 1st 82mm Mortar Battery – 3 82mm mortars (12 men) 2nd 82mm Mortar Battery – 3 82mm mortars (12 men) 1st Sani Mortar Battery – 2 Sani mortars (8 men) 2nd Sani Mortar Battery – 2 Sani mortars (8 men) 3rd Sani Mortar Battery – 2 Sani mortars (8 men) Total: 69 men, 18 units Weapons Battery: Sometimes the assault just needs a little extra fire. That fire is provided by the weapons battery, which usually consists of AGS-17s, SPG-9s and Konkurs or Fagot AGTMs, mounted on Battalion support vehicles, in our case the BTR-80As. These are deployed between the HQ and the mortar battery, but can also be deployed in the same vicinity. 2 AGS-17s on BTR-80 (8 men) 2 AGS-17s on BTR-80 (8 men) 2 AGS-17s on BTR-80 (8 men) 3 Konkurs (11 men) 3 SPG-9s on BTR-80 (11 men) (I used para SPG-9s, because I couldn’t find any others.) Total: 44 men, 16 units, 4 BTR-80 Grand Total: 501 men, 145 units, 35 BTR-80 (I know it’s not 100% accurate, but it still gives a startlingly good perspective of what an unsupported Russian battalion looks like. Besides, most of the Russian Battalions going in were up to fighting requirements, but were not perfect. A battalion exactly like the one mentioned above, may have been used in the Ossetian War, and battalions with slight differences were used.) Georgian Battalion: HQ, Staff, & Supply 1st Company 2nd Company 3rd Company Anti-Tank Company (apparently to fight all the tanks that the Taliban had, as Georgians were being armed to fight the Taliban, not Russia. CNN never lies. I also opted to place the AT-Co in the lead, for easier navigation through the Georgian ORBAT.) (For Georgia, the support units were attached to the respective companies, and it was hoped that the companies would operate independently, with HQ just there to provide oversight. Additionally the companies had portable mortars, (81mm) assigned to them, but no equivalent of the 120mm mortars were present. Georgian battalions needed the rest of the 3,300 man brigade to operate. The brigade’s structure was as follows: HQ + HQ Command – 168 men and 2 BMP-2s, 3 infantry battalions with 591 men, consisting of the companies listed above, mechanized battalion with 380 men, 15 BMP-2s (although some had BMP-1s) and 30 T-72 tanks, either of Czech, Ukrainian or upgraded Israeli design, artillery battalion with 371 men, 18 D-30 guns, 12 120mm mortars and 4 Shilka AA-Guns, Scout Company with 101 men on 8 BTR-80s, (although some had BTR-70s) a Communications Company with 88 men and 3 BTR-80s, although some had BTR-70s) an Engineer Company of 96 men, (funny story about that, ask me later) and a 288 men support battalion. The support battalion provided transportation for the infantry battalions, which is why they are all on foot. They were also sent into combat on foot, and because the Russians were mounted and the Georgians, not so much, the latter ended up being outmaneuvered repeatedly. The Russians are the World’s most mobile army, always have been. In the late ninth century, in Russia’s first major battle against the Byzantine Empire, the Russians managed to mount 100,000 men – a remarkable feat for that time period. The T-34 was the most maneuverable medium tank of WWII. This is why I always laugh when “analysts” are “shocked” that Russians were able to execute such a swift response. Also, the Georgians tried to gear their AT-Companies against the Russian vehicles – but the Russians had years of experience, and were able to escape massive damage by Georgian AT-Cos. Let’s see if the player can do the same, but I won’t digress any further.) HQ, Staff & Supply: HQ – 6 men 4 Bunkers – 24 men (used to represent Georgian supplies. The player can opt to use 4 MT-LBs instead) 3 SF Scouts – 12 men (I just used this to fill the manpower gap, and to give Georgia a chance. HQ had 42 total men, I felt like these were the best units. This is one of the very few guesses in the ORBAT.) Total: 42 men, 8 units 1st Company: Inf. Co. Command – 10 men Inf. Pl. Command – 10 men Inf. Pl. Comm. Supp. – 10 men Inf. Pl. Comm. Supp. – 10 men Heavy Infantry with Sniper – 9 men Inf. Pl. Command – 10 men Inf. Pl. Comm. Supp. – 10 men Inf. Pl. Comm. Supp. – 10 men Heavy Infantry with Sniper – 9 men Inf. Pl. Command – 10 men Inf. Pl. Comm. Supp. – 10 men Inf. Pl. Comm. Supp. – 10 men Heavy Infantry with Sniper – 9 men 12.7mm MG – 4 men & 12.7mm MG – 4 men 81mm mortar – 4 men & 81mm mortar – 4 men 4 RPG – 7V Teams – 12 men 4 Igla teams – 6 men Auto GL – 3 men & Auto GL – 3 men Med Truck – 2 men & Med Truck – 2 men Total: 173 men, 32 units (When I saw how perfectly the “Rifle Company +” of the Green ORBAT matched up, I was stunned. Granted, they had AK-74 rifles, not AK-47 rifles, but the structure was perfect. Additionally, I read on Georgia’s NATO integration website, damn good website actually, if only their president was as intelligent as their website makers, that a company of 173 men fought in Iraq or Afghanistan, can’t remember which one. It was a company in the 3rd Infantry Brigade. Considering that Georgia has everything standardized, I quickly added up the 3 companies, and got 173 men. I also read that 169 men fought, leaving 4 men with 2 medical trucks. I believe Georgia uses GAZ-66 for med trucks. The structure is similar, with regular men being 10-13 and support being 8. I added the snipers, because Georgia had snipers. The MGs and the mortars also matched up nicely, and they had an AGL, so I found those. There were 4 Iglas, per company, as those AA-Guns were quite effective. It’s fascinating to note that the Georgians always trained with Iglas, again must be to attack all that aircraft that the Taliban had. Additionally Georgia’s anti-tank capacity was quite strong; hence I added 2 more RPG-7V teams to reflect that. When you multiple 173 by 3, you get 519, and subtracting that from 591, you get 72. 30 goes to the AT-Co and you’re left with 42; 24 were used to supply, which I represented with bunkers. 6 were for HQ. And I used the remaining 12 to give the battalion scouting capacity, which it had to have in order to operate. The astute reader probably noticed that all those brigade units totaled up to 3265, not 3300. The remaining 35 were working with medical equipment for the brigade, at which, and I must give the Georgians credit where it’s due, they were quite efficient.) 2nd Company: same as 1st Company Total: 173 men, 32 units 3rd Company: same as 1st Company Total: 173 men, 32 units AT-Company: the AT company had 30 men in 10 units. I had to choose the AT-4 Fagot, as that was the closest to what was used, that I could find. Some units actually used the Fagot, so it has a dose of realism. The structure should have been 1-3-3-3, not 2-2-2-2-2, but since the rest of the ORBAT matched up nicely, I did what I had to. The AT-Cos served as a basis for Georgia’s AT-Battalion, that was formed after the Ossetian War. Total: 30 men, 10 units Grand Total: 591 men, 114 units Map, Force Comparison, Historical Notes & Other Stuff: For the map, I have chosen Komsomolskoye. Although it was the Chechen War that took place there, the map shows the area rather well, and after spending scores of hours researching this war, as a hobby, I didn’t want to design a map. Would I design one had Komsomolskoye not been mapped? I don’t know. I will say that in the Caucasus, the areas of combat are often similar. In our case, the Russians are starting in the north and heading south; the Georgians are starting in the south, and heading north. It is a meeting engagement, and it should be played as one. Overall, the Russian forces were substantially better than their Georgian counterparts, because of training and having actually fought. All of the Russian forces not manning supply lines were a professional fighting force. From the Georgian side, the 4th infantry brigade, one company from the 3rd infantry brigade, 1 company from the 5th infantry brigade and the separate infantry battalion had combat experience. That is not the entire force with combat experience. Additionally the Georgians misused their equipment. For instance, some idiots now think that the reputation of the D-30 Howitzer was tarnished by this war. Bull****. The D-30 Howitzer is an excellent, defensive gun that is supposed to be used for infantry suppression in mass numbers. If you place 18 D-30s against a VDV Company, it is not going to fare well. No Howitzer will. This is why you do not do that. The Russians are also guilty of misusing their forces, albeit to a lesser extent. The TU-22M3 is a strategic bomber, that should not have even been used in this war. It is supposed to fly above 15,000 meters, with fighter protection. It is an excellent bomber. However, when you fly said bomber at 4,000 meters, conveniently in range of all Georgian AA Guns in the area, it is going to get hit. If you have 4 strategic bombers do that, you assure that at least one will be hit. Whoever ordered the TU-22M3 to be used in this war, and in this manner, should… Although to Russia’s credit, to date the TU-22M3 is the only major mistake they made in this war that I found, whereas in Georgia's case... Nogovitsyn getting ambushed was not a major mistake, just a general who wanted to "visit the frontlines" and got shot. A mistake, but not a major one, and the ambush ultimately failed. I’m not talking about the PR War, where both sides’ mass media tried to play “who can best outdo Stalin’s Pravda”. CNN won, and the New York Times came in second, after claiming that genocide is a form of ethnic cleansing, which is a form of property destruction. The Russian Media usually tacked on a 0 to civilian casualties, with 200 becoming 2,000 and 8 becoming 80. The Jamestown Foundation, notorious hacks that worked hard to start the Iraq War, just made **** up, like claiming that Russia used 1,200 tanks! This is funny because the Caucasus Front had fewer than 700 active tanks. The actual tank number was between 120 and 150, with around 10 T-55s (Ossetian), 69 T-62s, 30 T-72BMs and the rest 81 T-72Bs. Georgia had roughly about 180 tanks, of similar or slightly better quality. CNN’s coverage of massive numbers of Russians, around 100,000, actually demoralized Georgian volunteers, and caused a massive panic in Tbilisi. As a result, CNN is the only news network to be reviled in Russia and Georgia, but hey, at least they made the Guinness Book of Records. In terms of battalions, having the BMPs and BTRs definitely helped the Russians. The Russians had better leadership, better unit cohesion and more firepower. The Georgians had more men, yet their attacks were often disorganized, as Georgians used Brigade-based attacks, whereas Russians had Battalion-based attacks. A Russian Battalion with a company of artillery (Akatsiya guns) and a group of SpetzNaz support (see our SpN Group in ORBAT,) a VDV company and a tank company, could, and did, operate independently. It was just easier to organize Battalions than Brigades. This battle isn’t a battle that would have occurred. Rather it is a battle of a standard Russian Battalion, around the time of the Ossetian War, going up against a standard Georgian Battalion, around the time of the Ossetian War. That is my sole intent. Another reason supplementing that intent, is that each side had over 10 battalions, 6 from the 58th Army, 4 from the 42nd Division and 3 from the Ossetian ORBAT for the Russo-Ossetian side. Georgia had 3 apiece from the 2nd, 3rd and 4th infantry regiments, 1 from the 1st and 5th infantry regiments, and the separate infantry battalion. I could easily expand this battle into something bigger; but this serves as my first battle, that I created, that is battalion sized. Thus I have no idea what I am doing. I wrote this explanation to help the reader figure out my intent, as I’m honestly a newbie in battle design. Eventually I hope to have enough experience to write a mini-campaign to capture the Ossetian War through the eyes of several Russian commanders, as well as Georgian commanders, whose battle reports I’ve read. Also, if you have any questions about the war, post them here, or e-mail snipeys@yahoo.com. If you have questions about other wars, First Chechen, Dagestan, Second Chechen, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, e-mail me, and I will respond; this thread however is just to focus on the Ossetian War. I tried to write a battle based on all this info using the editor, but weird stuff just kept happening, such as the Russian HQ dissapearing, results not being saved, etc. You have the ORBAT and the Map, now I need newbie instructions on the battle design. |
Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
I saw the part about the Green ORBAT. Those AK-47s CAN be changed to 74s in the editor.
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Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
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Give me a location, and I could maybe whip up a map more suitable... |
Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
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Here is a link to the Georgian ORBAT, (well part of it,) translated into into English. http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/nat...e-war-oob.html The ORBAT is a translation of a copy-paste of the actual ORBAT. Basically the mass media of both sides was lying about the war, and this pissed off, understanbly so, one of the actual guys working in Intel, and he posted actual ORBATs for both sides. No, Serbia and France did not sell weapons to Georgia, as was boldly alleged. Here's a part of the ORBAT in Russian that also includes the Russo-Ossetian side: http://zhurnal.lib.ru/m/marchenko_r_a/q1.shtml. The 2nd, 3rd and 4th infantry brigades, as well as the 1st mech bat, 1st arty bat, the 11th and 53rd inf bats, joint arty bde, joint tank bat, engineering bat, lit inf bat, recon bat, comms bat, air defense bde, medical bat and supply units, as well as special forces and of course the national guard, (which fared poorly.) The Georgian Land Forces at the start totaled around 23,100 men, out of which 15,500 men fought in the Ossetian War. Additional the AD bde (1,200), national guard (about 4,200 fought), medical and supply units (about 1,000), as well as special forces (1,500) bringing the total to 22,500. (I didn't really pay attention to the number in medical and supply units, but the special forces number is accurate. I mean why study doctores, when you can study SF :p Although for some reason, Georgian SF were of the same quality as mercenary battalions, and had the same structure too, but of course mercs didn't fight, as mass media said so...) So in this scenario, it would be roughly 2,200 Georgians vs. 1,600 Russo-Ossetian forces, most likely less as not all supply units went into combat. (200x160 map.) That's 3,800 men over 80 kilometers, or about 50 per kilometer, do you think that's too crowded? I might remove the air units and the supply units if that gets too crowded, and assign units triple supply or something like that. About the map: it should reflect the Caucasus Region. That's the only reason I chose Komsomolskoye. In terms of the map, the ideal would be a shrunk version of these borders: Roki Tunnel in the North, Gori in the South, and about 3/5ths east of Tskhinvali, and 2/5ths west, with Tskhinvali being shrank just a tad. Wow, that's is confusing. Another option would be to do a 10km by 8km map, centered on the Google Earth coordinates of 42deg14'31.27 N and 43deg57'56.19 E, with 5km going north, 5 km going south, 4km going east and 4km going west. |
Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
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(Supply is usually not a problem given the usual number of turns in any games - except maybe for some types of artillery/mortar systems.) One question though - this scenario will it be played on a north-south axis? In some cases it is better to "tilt" the map, making because the game mechanics work somewhat better if the game is played "east-west", i.e. your left and right hand sides on the monitor... |
Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
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ALL SP games are to be played Right to Left, one player deployed on each side. You can put in a compass rose notation in text to point where you think "North" should be, but it is academic. (There is no sun blinding etc). Off-map artillery comes from the right or the left side, and the ultimate retreat direction is either to the right or the left. Please - no more of this nonsense about the top of the screen being the "North". It is simply "Top". Think of an SP map as being a tabletop wargame board where instead of sitting opposite each other, the two players both sit on the same side (the bottom) and play left to right. And that saves having to have a complete set of all the graphics redrawn in a 180 degree reorientation - a big point when the game was designed in the mid 90s, and disk space was expensive. If doing it these days, then the bottom of the map would be your side, same as a 1/300 tabletop game. Your opponent would have the bottom of the screen as "his" side too, but with the terrain reversed 180 degrees. But "North" would still be a completely arbitrary notion. The board is Top, Right(Player baseline), Bottom, and Left (Other player baseline). Andy |
Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
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"North" is pointless on a generated map, yes - but it makes my life easier knowing where north is when building a game-map based on a real location. |
Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
47 to 74 button of magic
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/375/26804779.png |
Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
If you can locate any AK74 armed section in any other OOB that might seem suitable - say Russian or Ukranian OOB maybe - you can buy these as captured. A bit quicker than manually editing the small arms of a full Bn.
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Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
Would have thought Red would have something, its cosmetic anyway most rifles are the same AKs perform in game terms exactly the same so just changing the name. RPGs LMGs MMGs etc though stats do vary so right one is more important.
Using clone not that hard only have to do one of each unit type. |
Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
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http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...s/f/f7/SO1.jpg That road to the North of Zemo Roka is the Roki Tunnel. The shaded area is the territorry held by Georgian civvies, but on the eve of the war the civvies were evacuated, and the shaded territorry was controlled by Georgian militia. The Russian had to (and did) punch through the shaded area, on their way to Tskhinvali. Some also took the road from Dzari. In our scenario, that's where the Russian are coming from. The main thrust of the the Georgian attack came from Gori. That should give you an idea how the attacks developed. Quote:
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Quick note on civilians, and why they're not included: despite both, the Russian and Western mass media crying about "massive civilian casualties" - these casualties were not much. No genocide, ethnic cleansing, or mass aggression took place. Saakashvili committed war crimes, but not mass atrocities. The super-pooper-mega casualty total is - 365 for Ossetia, 228 for Georgia, and some idiot trying to stop an Iskander with a camcorder. The Iskander won. And those casualties, for both sides, are heavily inflated, as both sides recorded militia into civilian casualties, and Saakashvili went one step further, recording the military dead into civilian casualties. Why not, when they're dead, they're civilians. The lowest count is 168 for Ossetia and 69 for Georgia. The real number is somewhere in between. To give you something to compare to, in post-Iraq Saddam, about 500 people die every day as a result of anarchy outside the Green Zone. Civilians didn't do much to oppose Georgians or Russians. They ran, so it would be pointless to include civilians in our simulation, as they weren't killed en masse, and they didn't resist. Hmm, I can run, or I can shoot the tank shooting at me, hard call, I think I'll run. (I'll post the weapon comparison chart I made tomorrow, if I hopefully find it.) |
Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
The diffrence between captured & Allies.
If use Allies they use there own exp & morlae in other words fight as normal. ID flag shows their country. If use captured manned crewed by your troops so use your troops exp & morale. ID flag shows HQ country. Therefore using captured can use red on both sides if want without the game giving one side Civil War ID flag as they will show under HQs ID flag. |
Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
Sorry for double post but you mentioned in first post OOB
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My thoughts First shows how games OOBs are pretty much right a lot of work goes into them. For the Russians you could go with the standard setup I use if playing them. In this case as BTR Companies 3X BTR Companies Page 2 about 8th from bottom. 1X BTR BTR Bn Support Company page 3 about 15th. In fact you could use 3X BTR Co with MBT just below it to give each 4 tanks. This is very close to your original & has the bonus of being set up already. You lost 3 MGs & gained an ATGM & 3 Iglas Gained RPG teams instead of snipers. My view snipers the level you are talking = designated marksmen have standard rifles not sniper & you said COULD act independently. Thats a lot of snipers even for an elite unit could allow a couple assuming Spetsnaz involved as think they were. Easy purchase then in my view 3x BTR Co with MBT If wish could remove RPG teams by assigning away but I would leave them. 1x BTR Bn Support Co, if you wish just delete the Iglas section. Any spare tanks can be tacked onto this for command & control or if enough buy a tank co. if you want a couple of snipers tac them onto Bn Support or change a RPG team in a couple of BTR Cos. This pretty much gives what you are after for minimal work & C&C is setup all thats left I think is arty. Buy a FOO (first unit after HQ best place or very last unit) which you have not mentioned. If bought SPA Battalion bottom of page 2 you could spirit FOO vehicle away or change it to a second foot FOO if wanted. Delete the formations it comes with & add the correct ones then assign C&C to him or your Support Co Switch tank models if want. Just produced what you want for minimal work less time than it took to write this pretty much straight out of the box with C&C sorted & minimal editor work. |
Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
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Even today, the Russian dug in, so it will be upto Georgia to again try to attack Abkhazia and/or South Ossetia, but I doubt they'll try it again. (BTW, in 2006, I said this war was going to happen.) Interestingly enough, parts of the Russian Intel that I read, indicated that Georgia was going to attack after the Olympics, or even on the last few days of the Olympics. So the Russian units trained, were hoping to watch the Olympics, but a war erupted instead. It also shows why the Russians were semi-prepared when the war began. But that could also have just been a rumor. About the snipers - you're right, they should be marksmen, thank you for catching that. In fact they should be marksmen for both sides. In terms of Bn Support, the Russians didn't have the luxury of having separate BTRs for the machine guns, as they were cramming their troops through the Roki Tunnel. Iglas also rode with infantry in this war. http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...9/01/roki4.jpg (BTW I love how the forum just reduces my pics to perfect size, so I don't have to deal with the resize crap.) As you can see, it has only two lanes. Only one could be used to move the army in, as another was kept open for emergenices, VDV, SpN, convoys of wounded coming back, etc. Additionally the road is small until it reachest the city of Java, Ossetia's temporary HQ for the Ossetian War. And it couldn't be blown up, as it was protected by the SpN and MIG fighters early on in the war. Could a plane bombing on August 7th have succeeded? It's hard to tell when the MIGs were up in the air and patrolling. From what I've read, Mercs tried to blow it up from the ground, and ran into SpN. Tanks operated independently, and the Russians don't like to split their tanks and use them as infantry support, unless they have to. FOO belongs with artillery units, and I will eventually introduce arty units into the ORBAT, as well as tank battalions. Since I am doing /10 they will be introduced as companies. Mortars were usually assigned by company commanders, and didn't use forward observers. The Russians had 2 Arty BDEs (the 292nd of the 58th army and the 50th of the 42nd division) the 292nd having MSTA-S and the 50th having Akatsiya (2S3M1) and five Bns, one for each regiment, with 135th having MSTA-S and the rest having Akatsiyas. However not all of these fought. Also arty isn't all that's left. There were also Scouting Bns, SpN, VDV.... Anyways, here's the weapon comparison: mobile Arty for Georgia: 12 Akatsiya, 24 Dana (Czech Design), 6 Pion, and 7 more in Tbilisi as reserves, consisting of Akatsiya, 3 Giantsit, 2 Dana and MSTA-S. (Tbilisi ones were not used in the Ossetian War.) The Russian Mobile Arty consisted of 47 MSTA-S (36 from the 292nd and 11 from the 135th) 86 Akatsiya (12 from each remaining RGMT, 12 from Ossetian OOB and 36 from the 50th). However out of these only 32 MSTA-S and 74 Akatsiya were used. The Ossetians also had 12 Gvozdikas. For the towed arty, the Georgians had 90 D-30s and 11 MSTA-B. 72 D-30s (18 from each RGMT, -18 from the 5th) and 11 MSTA-B were used. The Russians had 38 D-30 and 3 M-30. However due to logistical constraints, (i.e. you want to move in mobile arty before towed arty) meaning that only 12 D-30s were used. All towed arty was towed by the MT-LB Tyagach. In terms of the rocket arty, the Georgians had 16 Grad BM-21, 8 GradLar, 4 Orkan, 2 Uragan and 12 RM-70. However there was a technical problem with the Orkans, or they didn't arrive on time, or something, but they weren't used, until it was pointless to use them. The Russians had 38 BM-21 Grad, 4 BM-30 Smerch and 4 BM-27 Uragan. Out of these, the Russian used 30 BM-21, and 8 Smerch and Uragan. Totals for Arty are: 163 for Georgia and 156 for Russia. Although AT-Arty was used, it did not make virtually any impact. |
Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/4830/ossetssia.jpg
Would it be correct to assume this is the area where the major action will take place...? |
Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
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The battle developed within Tskhinvali itself, whereas your arrows meet West of Tskhinvali. And thank you for making me clear that up. I should've stated it much earlier in my posts. (Also, if Right attacks Left, then North = Left and South = Right. Although it really should be a battle engagement). Currently I'm working on getting the Recon units for both sides in, that should be in my next post. |
Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
Quite possibly Recon should be trimmed back or ignored completly they are doing just that. If they get caught in a fight quite likely to be seperate from the main force.
I may well be wrong here as a civillian but true recon is a seperate thing I think of the scouts we use in game as a squad trained to split & cover more ground. More scouting for contact than true Recon who probably gave you the local & are now trying to figure out force makeup etc. So thinking is might have left a few behind to keep an eye on but the rest have moved on. |
Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
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Will there be any objectives outside the urban area? |
Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
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The Russians employed 2 Recon Battalions and 5 Recon Companies. Since this is a mini-map, I will simply use 1 Recon company to represent that. The Recon Company has 115 men, 4 BMP-2, 4 BRM-1K, 1BMP-1KSh, 1 R-145BM (or command vehicle) and 2 BTR-80. HQ + Command vehicle - 8 men 1st Platoon - 6 units * 3 men on 2 BMP-2 2nd Platoon - 6 units * 3 men on 2 BMP-2 3rd Platoon - 6 units * 3 men on 2 BTR-80 (with AA Guns) 4 BRM-1K - 24 men Support units - 25 men, BMP-1KSh Good website for BRM-1K Specs, although I think they're already in our ORBATs. http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3360.html For the Georgians, they had 4 Recon Co. of 101 men and 8 BTR-80, as well as a Recon Battalion of 1070 men. However most of the Recon Battalion units were manned by local militias. Taking into account what Imp suggested earlier, I propose giving the Georgians a single Recon Co of 101 men and 8 BTR-80. I am fairly sure that they also scout vehicles. HQ + Command Vehicle - 8 men 1st Platoon - 4 units of 4 men + 2 BTR-80 2nd Platoon - 4 units of 4 men + 2 BTR-80 3rd Platoon - 4 units of 4 men + 2 BTR-80 4th Platoon - 4 units of 4 men + 2 BTR-80 Support units - 13 men (med + supply) Quote:
Just think of it as a mini-Stalingrad. |
Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
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Basically do you want a 200x160 urban map based on Thiskinvali or a map encompassing most of Ossetia..., shrunk to fit 200x160 size... |
Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
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http://shr.aaas.org/geotech/georgia/images/Figure_1.jpg http://ginacobb.typepad.com/gina_cob...tskhinvali.jpg If you have Google Earth installed, you can get very good images of the area. |
Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
Sorry about not posting this earlier, RL was really insane, but since Monday, I'm on a three week break. Don't know if I'll be gone for one of these three weeks on a field trip or not, but I managed to finish parts of the ORBAT, which is scaled 1 to 10
Russia + Ossetia: 1 Mechanised Infantry Battalion (501 men) to represent the 10 mech inf battalions, (2 from the 693rd, 2 from the 503rd, 1 from the 135th, 2 from the 70th, 2 from the 71st, and the first Ossetian mech inf bn. The battalion starts out on the Russian side, relatively close to the edge. 1 Regular Infantry Company with support(150 men) to represent the Peacekeeping Battalions of Russia (from 135th) and North Ossetia (nicknamed Alania in honor of the Alans), (1,000 men total) and the 1st Ossetian foot battalion (500 men). These units will start inside the city of Tskhinvali. 1 Composite Arty Bn (147 men) to represent the crews of the 136 arty guns, 38 rocket launchers. There are 32 MSTA-S, 80 Akatsiya (the ones with CG capability,) 12 Gvozdika, 12 D-30, 30 BM-21 Grads, 4 Smerch (BM-30) and 4 Uragan rocket launchers (BM-27). To represent all this, I am going to use 3 MSTA-S (15 men), 8 Akatsiya (32 men), 1 Gvozdika (4 men), 1 D-30 with MT-LB (10 men), 3 BM-21 (15 men) and 1 BM-30 (6 men). That's 17 guns and rocket launchers. That's 17 total, so I am going to give them 1 company (12 guns) and 1 battery (4 guns) support units, meaning 4 resupply trucks (8 men), 4 med trucks (8 men), 4 arty observers (24 men), (FOOs) 1 BMP KSh (9 men) and 1 Gaz-66 (26 men) truck with 24 infantry. My earlier gun estimate was incorrect. If anyone wants to, I can explain where all the arty came from. 1 Composite Tank Co (72 men) to represent 5 tank battalions /10. The Russians, (according to US satellite data, and this figure is corroborated by other research,) had 150 tanks. 10 T-55, 29 T-62, 81 T-72B, and 30 T-72BM. Representing this is easy: T-55 (starts inside the city), 3 T-62, 8 T-72B, 3 T-72BMs, with 46 tankers, as T-55 has 4, rest have 3. BMP-1KSh (9 men), BTR-80 (9 men), 2 MT-LB suppliers (4 men) and 2 med trucks (4 men). Tank battalions also have repair units, but these do not participate in battles. 1 Recon Company (115 men) to represent 11 recon companies who fought. 1 Communications Platoon (27 men) which can be represented by 3 BMP-1KSh, with mech inf. 1 Engineering Platoon (26 men) to represent the engineers who fought, which is basically an Engineer Platoon (24 men) on Gaz-66 truck. Vostok-Zapad Platoon (33 men) they had 2 companies, so 1 platoon sums it up nicely 3 SpetzNaz Groups (137 men) Russians had about 1,000-1,200 SpN, and Ossetians had about an additional 300-350. Data on SpN is virtually impossible to get, but they came from the 10th and 22nd SpN brigades. Structure that was used is classified, so I figured I'd just use the groups found in the game. Additionally, 1 group starts in the city, and 2 other groups get a total of 10 BTR-80s. A group is 39 men, so three groups are 117 men, and BRT-80s have 2 drivers per car. VDV Groups totaling 140 men I am still looking for VDV companies that might fit a structure similar to the one used in the ORBAT. Militia 110 men Roughly 1,100 fought in South Ossetia's Volunteer Militia. Like any militia, some of these units were quite good, while others were inexperienced. I'm still trying to figure out the structure that I want to use here. Other units possible, but unlikely They were additional supply units, but I figure we have enough supply and medical units as it is. Totals: 1458 men Georgian ORBAT: 1 Infantry Battalion (591 men) to represent forces of the 11th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 31st, 32nd, 33rd, 41st, 42nd, 43rd. 1 Infantry Company with better exp (169 men) to represent the 53rd (mostly mercs) and Naval Battalions. Supporting units for the Bn and the Co Arty Bn (slightly under 371 men) to represent 4 Arty Bns, and the Joint Arty BDE. Georgians had 72 D-30, 12 120-MM mortars, (assigned to arty bns not inf bns,) 11 MSTA-B, 12 Akatsiya, 24 Dana, 6 Pion, 16 BM-21 Grad, 12 GradLar, 8 RM-70, 2 BM-27. To represent this, I have 7 D-30, 1 MSTA-B, 1 Akatsiya, 2 Dana, 1 Pion, 2 BM-21 Grad, 1 GradLar, 1 RM-70. Composite Tank-Mech Co (roughly 300 men) Georgia combined a reenforced mechanised infantry company with a tank battalion. Aside from four of these units, they also had a joint tank battalion of 60 tanks. The Georgian Tanks: 30 T-72 SIM-I, 60 Czech T-72s, 75 Ukrainian T-72s, 15 T-55s, represented by 3 T-72 SIM-I, 6 C T-72, 8 Ukr T-72, and 1 T-55. Additionally the unit has 2 mechanised infantry platoons. I'm still working on this. Recon Co 101 men Comms Pl And Eng Pl same as Russia's, just less experienced, which is already modified by ORBATs. Special Forces Co (less than 151 men) Militia - 200 men Like Ossetia, Georgia also had conscripted militia units, but their overall morale was lower than that of their Ossetian counterparts, as they weren't fighting inside their capital city. Other units possible, but unlikely, total force will be between 1,500 - 1,800 men and I'm still working on parts of it. What do you guys think of it so far? BTW, how is the map coming? |
Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
Looking good so far. Nice work on the scaling. Did you leave out the 120mm mortar from the Georgian side arty on purpose, or was that an oversight?
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Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
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That was an oversight. I was actually wondering what to do with the Georgian 120mm mortar. 12 would be scaled down to 1, but I am able to get everything else to operational strength. Here, the OS would be 2. So I was wondering if I should have 2 120mm mortars for Georgia or 1. What do you guys think? Also, this might turn out to be a good battle, and we might expand this to a campaign featuring the entire war, where the battle map we are using for the battle will be the map where most of the action takes place. For this battle, the number of turns is going to be the equivalent of daylight hours that Tskhinvali receives. There's also no point in doing the Abkhaz campaign, because there it was just overkill. The Abkhaz Army of 5,000 could've taken 3,000-4,000 Georgians in the area. But they also had just under 9,000 Russians, and around 2,000 militia. Additionally no Georgian units in Abkhazia even came close to VDV and SpN capabilities. Most of the Georgian Army changed to civilian clothes, (ok lol) surrendered their weapons to the Russians, (only actual requirement to leave,) and left the area. There were several minor engagements, such as the inept Georgian ambush of the VDV column, (no one was killed), the initial Abkhaz charge, (1 Abkhaz killed, 2 wounded and 2 Georgians killed, 1 wounded,) etc. In case the Georgians managed to blow up the Roki Tunnel, or capture Tskhinvali, the Russians would've made an attack from Abkhazia to liberate Ossetia. The forces assigned to hold Georgian positions were woefully outmatched. On top of everything, Russian SU-25s and sometimes SU-24s were quite effective. |
Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
I think ignoring 12 mortars of that size would be more significant than adding the 2nd tube that's part of a single unit in the game. I don't think the game effect of the extra tube would be significant, since its still only one plottable barrage. Anyone feel differently?
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Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
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Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
I thought I'd just give a quick example of how I do research for the ORBAT. For now, I'll just focus on tanks, which was a popular theme early on in the war. As I was watching the war on interfax.ru, (.ru had more info than interfax.com), and they separated facts from their own opinions, as well as Googling massively, I found the tank numbers ranging from 120 to 1,200 for Russia, (now we know it's 150) and from 30 to 400 for Georgia, (now we know it's 180).
At one point in time, some intelligence officers disgusted by the mass media coverage on both sides, (no one is actually sure if it was 1 or 100, as they disguised IPs and stuff (I'm not a techie,) when they posted). What did they post? Georgia's entire ORBAT. This was instantaneously copied by numerous people wanting to know the truth, including yours truly. I quickly referenced the number of tanks presented in the ORBAT, 210 (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th infantry regiments with 150 total, 30 apiece, and the joint tank battalion, 60 tanks. The 5th's tanks were incomplete, and the 5th's tanks did not participate in the war. This was cross-referenced with the initial number of tanks left by the USSR in Georgia, (31 T-72s), roughly 30 of which were later upgrade by Israelis to T-72 SIM-I. The purchases, (thank you Jane's Magazine,) were 70 from the Czech Republic and 90 from Ukraine. (After the war, Georgia bought more tanks from Ukraine; these shouldn't be mixed it with the ones used in the war.) So that's 191 tanks. Georgia also had at least 40 T-55s, out of which at least 10-20 were used. A third match can be seen by the massive destruction of Georgian tanks, and Georgia's ability to rebuild them to 4 tank batallion. The Russians did not make a big secret out of which units fought. They listed the 503rd, 693rd and 135th, the latter recently added to the 58th Army, as participants; Russian newspapers praised the performance of the 141st separate tank battalion, (under 58th, but with no regimental oversight). Each had roughly 30 tanks, T-72, with the 131st having 30 T-72BMs, and with less beauracracy, they maintained their tanks better. Ossetia had 15 tanks, 10 T-55s, (used for ambushing Georgian T-72s trying to take over Tskhinvali,) and 5 T-72s, which merged with the Russian tanks. The Russians also pointed out that 29 T-62s from the 70th Brigade of the 42nd Division took part. In order to quell panic, "On Noes, Ze Russians Are Coming to Atlanta with 1,200 tanks!", US satellite data report was released, stating that 150 Russo-Osetian tanks fought. Later the report was pulled from the web. Damn, I should've ctrl-alt-prntscrned it. Yes, CNN's coverage of the war actually caused massive panic in Tbilisi. In the confusion, some of the reporters, doing false reporteing were shot at. Whoopsie. Ahh the unintended effects of bull****ting, aren't they hilarious? The Russians initially claimed only introducing 120 tanks. However, the US Satellite imagery included Ossetian tanks. Keep in mind that Ossetian tanks were only hidden on the eve of the war, and kept at base prior to that. So the number of tanks became 135-150. And then my math skills kicked in. 150/135 - 15 (Ossetian tanks) = 135/120 - 29 (T-69s) = 106/91 - 30 (T-72BMs) = 76/61 for three Russian Battalions, which have 90 tanks total. While Russian maintance isn't 100%, stating that 1/3rd of all Russian tanks are unprepared would be simply true. Now the 150 number may not be superbly accurate, it might have very well been 148 or 152, but the 150 figure is definetely closer to the truth than 135, or any other number of tanks that we've heard. I hope this clears up how I do the research, so that you can see if I made any errors, they were unintentional, and most likely the result of posting after partying, or a full day of research/work, which ironically leave me in the same condition. "No Officer, I'm not drunk, I had a final in the morning though." |
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