Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

I heard a while ago that some of the Religious Shrines weren't working. Has this been fixed? If not, which Shrines don't work?

------------------
Assume you have a 1kg squirrel
E=mc^2
E=1kg(3x10^8m/s)^2=9x10^16J
which, if I'm not mistaken, is equivilent to roughly a 50 megaton nuclear bomb.
Fear the squirrel.

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

They weren't really broken; it's just that the text description for Nature Shrines wasn't clear enough. A Nature Shrine increases the value of all the inhabited planets in the system; uncolonized worlds aren't affected.

------------------
Cap'n Q
My first SE IV mod! Hypermaze quadrant
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

A small addition to that: Nature shrines only increase the value/conditions of inhabited planets that you control.

Allied planets in the system don't get the bonus unless your ally has a shrine of his own.

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

and you have to remember it takes years for the changes to take effect.

And the value is a yearly improvement

------------------
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

And, the improvement happens between "month" zero and one (year xxxx.0 and xxxx.1), no matter when the shrine was constructed.

So, If the shrine is due to finish on "month 1", rush build it to sneak it in just ahead of the deadline.

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

Yes, but the accumulated effect can be VERY beneficial. If you can survive to late game, Religeous Tech can become quite an asset. The Talismans are great! you NEVER MISS. And the shrines can really boost production and resources as well as happiness levels, etc. The cumulative effect is quite substantial.

I play that racial tech a lot....

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

I have noticed a couple of times when queueing the Time Shrine that I get the message that I "already have a sytem wide facility of this capability", which is news to me. A Time Shrine III should add 15% to mineral production. Maybe it adds nothing if you already have a System Mineral Scanner III(adds 30% max to same). But I don't HAVE a system mineral scanner! Could it be something else? Or be a bug? For example, I DO have a System Radioactive Collider III (adds 30% to radioactives production). Could it be that you can only have one such system resource amplifier in a system? If so, the Time Shrine is rather useless. And it would be nice if that were stated somewhere.

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

it's been my experence that the warning message isn't all that accurate. It will give warnings where it shouldn't.

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>For example, I DO have a System Radioactive Collider III (adds 30% to radioactives production).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In that case it's not a bug; it's just not telling you the whole situation. The Time Shrine boosts all three resources, and the warning is just telling you that you already have at least one of them being boosted. The program isn't smart enough to tell you that the Time Shrine will still boost the other two resources; it's only looking for potential redundancies.

Whenever you have multiple facilities which have effects that don't stack, you get the largest of the effects.

------------------
Cap'n Q
My first SE IV mod! Hypermaze quadrant
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

You get a warning if there is any overlap at all.

Since you have a radioactives collider, the time shrine notices that it is duplicating an ability already present.

If you ignore it and go ahead, you will get:
15% minerals from TS
15% organics from TS
30% radioactives from RC

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Could it be that you can only have one such system resource amplifier in a system? If so, the Time Shrine is rather useless. And it would be nice if that were stated somewhere.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>SE4 will take the best of each ability, and apply it.
Having abilities duplicated is only useful in case of rebellion or glassing.

In the case of time shrine vs System Resource boosters, you get three different 15% bonuses, all in one facility. Or, you could build (and research) the 3 separate facilities and get twice the bonus.

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

Any news about the Fate Shrines ? Do they avoid bad events or not ?

I have not seen any bad events (except by intel attacks) ever, but it seems not to happen very often anyway.

[This message has been edited by PsychoTechFreak (edited 18 November 2001).]

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

IMO, the Fate Shrines' Happiness bonus is far more useful than the events protection, whether the latter works or not.

------------------
Cap'n Q
My first SE IV mod! Hypermaze quadrant
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

S-J: Regarding overlap, does that also apply to the case where you have a single planet increase in, say, minerals production, and a system wide increase (say, time shrine or system mineral scanner)? Are they not cumulative in this case?

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

Did a small test on fate shrines.
I created a shrine with a +10000 chance, then ran 300 turns on 3 systems (one with shrine, two without) with high events.

Result:
System with "curse" shrine : 5 events occoured.
Other 2 systems : 3 and 2 respectively.

I need to do a better test, but the ability seemed to work - a bit - but only with huge scale numbers.

Is there any confirmation that the ability is just plain, un-abled, or does it only appear to not work?

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>S-J: Regarding overlap, does that also apply to the case where you have a single planet increase in, say, minerals production, and a system wide increase (say, time shrine or system mineral scanner)? Are they not cumulative in this case?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Think of it this way:
The planet collects X minerals from all of its extractors.
Multiply by the best mineral bonus LOCAL to the planet.
Collect all minerals from the planets in the system together.
Multiply by the best system-wide bonus.
Give those minerals to the empire's budget.
Repeat for other resources.

Typically the best bonus is the maximum individual bonus ability from any facility that applies (ie local vs system).

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark Walton:
Result:
System with "curse" shrine : 5 events occoured.
Other 2 systems : 3 and 2 respectively.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have got more (bad) events with the FS ???

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

I never knew about the over lap.

So you could have the fate shrine running ( which has a +1 on the happiness and the other two great bonuses) and the temporal vacation services ( +6) and they both work ( minus the crappy +1 happiness on the nature shrine )

If this is true then, I have a few systems I will have to visit to build some more system wide facilities.

Thanks. Stuff you learn.

------------------
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

PsychoTechFreak:
I made a "special" shrine with a big positive number (instead of a small negative one) to increase the event chance.

I plan to do a similar but more extensive test -
create +10000 and -10000 chance shrines.
create a game with neutrals and me only, events set to "high"
Colonize 10 systems.
Ensure each system has vessels in it, facilities, units on worlds etc (anything events may want to affect)
In one system only, create a "good" shrine.
In one other system, create a "bad" shrine.
(edit; make sure neither of these is the "homeworld", just in case anything is hardcoded... wouldn't think so, but nayway)

Run the game just hitting end turn for about 1000 turns, pausing only to note which worlds are affected by events.

At then end I will have a pattern which will show whether the shrines have any effect, and if so how much.

But, no time for that this week.


[This message has been edited by Mark Walton (edited 22 November 2001).]

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

My God! Really are you trying to do a test!
I can bet that you have a big patience! Thanks for test it!

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

1000 turns. Gordddddds man. No human can handle hitting f12 and return that many times in a row. Their going to have to use paint thiner to scrape your thumb and middle finger off the keyboard.



------------------
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

When I get curious about something I have to investigate!

(On reflection I might just alter the "Event Chance High" in settings, to make events more likely, then see what happens.. I might get enough data in just 800 turns)

[This message has been edited by Mark Walton (edited 22 November 2001).]

[ 24 November 2001: Message edited by: Mark Walton ]</p>

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

don't use the word looney. Bad Karma. Post the results when their done

Also maybe what you were thinking every 150 end turns or so.

Would be good to track the stats. To see if there are any patterns.

Maybe every 5 or 10 turns.

------------------
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
Think of it this way:
The planet collects X minerals from all of its extractors.
Multiply by the best mineral bonus LOCAL to the planet.
Collect all minerals from the planets in the system together.
Multiply by the best system-wide bonus.
Give those minerals to the empire's budget.
Repeat for other resources.

Typically the best bonus is the maximum individual bonus ability from any facility that applies (ie local vs system).<hr></blockquote>

I like the explination. Any idea when the racial bonus gets added???

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I like the explination. Any idea when the racial bonus gets added???<hr></blockquote>I think it dosen't matter when the racial bonus is added. The only difference it would make is in rounding off errors.

The best way to view it is probably at the planet level. Those people that run the resource extractors simply work harder, producing x% more than everybody else.
Alternatives are that the civilian shipping companies lose less (due to spills or poorly maintained cargo bays, or something), or fewer resources are lost in the administration between the factories and the budget.

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

Methods

///////////////////////////////////////////////

QuandrantTypes File :

Name := AAATEST
Description := Just a test.
Min Dist Between Systems := 1
System Placement := Random
Max Warp Points per Sys := 5
Min Angle Between WP := 60
Number of System Types := 1
Type 1 Name := TestMW
Type 1 Chance := 100

///////////////////////////////////////////////

SystemTypes File:

Name := TestMW
Description := Test system.
System Physical Type := Normal
Background Bitmap := Starmap.bmp
Empires Can Start In := TRUE
Mask Background Objs := FALSE
Non-Tiled Center Pic := FALSE
Number of Abilities := 0
WP Stellar Abil Type := Normal Warp Point
Number of System Objs := 2
Obj 1 Physical Type := Star
Obj 1 Position := Ring 1
Obj 1 Stellar Abil Type := Normal Star
Obj 1 Size := Any
Obj 1 Age := Any
Obj 1 Color := Any
Obj 1 Luminosity := Any
Obj 2 Physical Type := Planet
Obj 2 Position := Ring 6
Obj 2 Stellar Abil Type := Normal Planet
Obj 2 Size := Medium
Obj 2 Atmosphere := None
Obj 2 Composition := Rock

///////////////////////////////////////////////

Events file :

Type := Planet - Population Change
Severity := Catastrophic
Effect Amount := -10
Message To := Owner
Num Messages := 1
Message Title 1 := Event
Message 1 := [%ActualAmount]M lives on [%PlanetName] have been lost in the terrible results of the rogue experiment. Somehow, the planet itself has survived intact.
Picture := PlanetDestroyed
Time Till Completion := 0
Num Start Messages := 0

///////////////////////////////////////////////

At front of Facilities file:

Name := Bad Shrine
Description := Seers who predict the future and can cause disasters.
Facility Group := Religious
Facility Family := 29
Roman Numeral := 1
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 36
Cost Minerals := 1000
Cost Organics := 1000
Cost Radioactives := 1000
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Change Bad Event Chance - System
Ability 1 Descr := Increases the chance of any bad events in this system (only 1 facility per system effective).
Ability 1 Val 1 := 10000
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0

Name := Good Shrine
Description := Thoughtful seers who predict the future and can avert disasters.
Facility Group := Religious
Facility Family := 29
Roman Numeral := 1
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 36
Cost Minerals := 1000
Cost Organics := 1000
Cost Radioactives := 1000
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Change Bad Event Chance - System
Ability 1 Descr := Decreases the chance of any bad events in this system (only 1 facility per system effective).
Ability 1 Val 1 := -10000
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0

///////////////////////////////////////////////

1. Generate a large map (this will be single rock/none worlds throughout)

2. Set Events to High / Catestrophic.

3. Set players to 10 worlds.

4. Create a Rock / none race.

5. Set no AI races, low numbers Neutrals.

6. Start Game

7. Set empire option; no confirmation on end of turn.

8. Scrap a Mineral Miner at each of two worlds.

9. On one, build a "good" facility. On the other, build a "bad".

10. Put a heavy weight on the f12 key. Wait for Messages to pop up.

11. Note the location of each message (which will be "the event"), then click close.

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

Results:

8 worlds with no shrines received the following results in 200 turns.
world 1 - 6 events
world 2 - 10 events
world 3 - 12 events
world 4 - 15 events
world 5 - 10 events
world 6 - 6 events
world 7 - 15 events
world 8 - 15 events

World with the "bad" shrine: 6 events.

Note, this does not appear to be a significant result; this is the lowest of the shrine-less world results.

World with the "good" shrine: 0 events.

This does appear significant. I will test further, but it seems that a -10,000 value has stopped all events.
As a quick thought, perhaps this is 100ths of a percent - possibly the code turns the value into a percent by dividing by 100, but accidentally does this twice?

More tests at a future date (apologies for delay, I have had flu)

Edit:
To be fair, I ough to test with a -100 value didn't I? That will be the next test

[ 04 December 2001: Message edited by: Mark Walton ]</p>

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

Results, and confused once more

2nd test ; shrines set to 100 and -100 effect. 200 turns process.

world 1 : 17
world 2 : 10
world 3 : 13
world 4 : 17
world 5 : 12
world 6 : 6
world 7 : 8
world 8 : 9

bad shrine : 8
good shrine : 0

OK so far so good, but then I decided to remove the good shrine, and place a good shrine on another world.

Results ; not detailed but,
the new "good" world was receiving just as many events as before! The previous "good" shrine was reveiving none!!

any ideas?

Edit:
Tried again, and this time I built the shrines the other way round from the start.
My previous good, now bad world... no events. None.

Lucky worlds?

How can I tell for sure? How can I work if there are such factors involved?

I'm going for a little lie down.

[ 04 December 2001: Message edited by: Mark Walton ]</p>

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

Nobody really cares about this, do they?
I might as well leave it.

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

IBID.

Mark we just come in here and read the results. When you state your done your testing that is when we will talk about it.

Sorry if I offended you there.

Take care

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

OK sorry if I sounded grouchy, just wanted to make sure I wasn't just wasting my life (well, that part of it, anyway!)
I'll do a bit more testing later.

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

Solving equations with more than one variable is never easy. You are entitled to a little grouchiness. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geo

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

Well, I care!

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

Bump.

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

I admit I didn't read the whole thread, but I am curious about this. Wouldn't it make sense though to mod the shrines so they have a high value, before running the test?

PvK

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PvK:
Wouldn't it make sense though to mod the shrines so they have a high value, before running the test?

PvK<hr></blockquote>

Exactly, Mark has run the tests with modded shrines, +100 and -100 instead of the existing -30?

The odd thing about it is this:

Results ; not detailed but,
the new "good" world was receiving just as many events as before! The previous "good" shrine was reveiving none!!

any ideas?

Edit:
Tried again, and this time I built the shrines the other way round from the start.
My previous good, now bad world... no events. None.



It seems that, once you have built a shrine, the rules are set, even if you scrap the facility later on and build the counterpart, +100 instead of -100. And the value -100 does not mean it would avoid 100% of the events.

Edit: This seems to be the interesting part of it:

This does appear significant. I will test further, but it seems that a -10,000 value has stopped all events.
As a quick thought, perhaps this is 100ths of a percent - possibly the code turns the value into a percent by dividing by 100, but accidentally does this twice?



[ 22 March 2002: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]</p>

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

IIRC the neg values dont'work but that might be just me also you shoudl do a control to see if a system without a bad shrine has the same number of bad events as one with a bad shrine.

Whatever im trying to concentrate on school rite now (argh i can't stand trig)

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

Mark did you ever finish your tests ???

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

I guess this would be a good task for a longterm simulation, with MB's Batch program. I think about some modded settings and data files to accelerate the creation of results, plus the events log for players turned on.

Any ideas to accelerate the statistics ?

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

You could do ten-world starts with eighteen empires, with six of them building good shrines, six of them building bad shrines, and six of them not building shrines...

PvK

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

I have got another idea about the test, but I am too lazy to try it, well maybe tonight http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Mod the events file to one event, maybe just with planet conditions or value impact.
Set up 20 races,10 planets,player logs on, human control and without switching to AI control, means they would do nothing which could disturb the statistics. Let them build the shrines, 4 of them with -1000, 4 of them with -500, and so forth. And then I would do the coffee-mug-trick with function key F12, see coffee-mug

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

Sad news to all you religious fans in space, Fate Shrines appear to have no helping effect. Test scenario as follows. One possible event, planet value change by one per cent, to display the event frequency directly with home planet values. Event frequency set to 50, means the usually high value has been doubled. Results after 20 years, BTW no events have occured during the first 2 years, with every of the following tests. Seems to be a period of peace within the first 20 turns.

Results:
without Fate Shrine, 91 events
with FS set to minus 1,000 result was 85 events
repeated FS minus 1,000 result was 82 events, Mmmh, tiny effects ? Obviously not,
with FS set to minus 10,000 result was 96 events
with FS set to plus 200, 91 events
with FS set to minus 200, 100 events

PvK, I guess we should talk about our Proportions PBW with events frequency set to medium, or what do you think ?

Edit: With event frequency medium (unmodded), I get 22 events within the 200 turns.

And, somebody might be worried about the high values, with an unmodded FS 3 , I have got 95 events within the 200 turns, with event frequency set to 50, test scenario as seen above.

[ 24 March 2002: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]</p>

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

Guess what I have tried next, advanced trait - cursed, 10 times the chance for bad events, I think the results should be better kept as my little secret. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

PvK, please check PM for test results.

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

As I said on the first page (for those not reading back): <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> IMO, the Fate Shrines' Happiness bonus is far more useful than the events protection, whether the latter works or not. <hr></blockquote>And the Happiness bonus definitely does work.

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by capnq:
As I said on the first page (for those not reading back): And the Happiness bonus definitely does work.<hr></blockquote>

That is true, but it is just worth 75 points in your race setup, characteristics-happiness, 3 per cent up.

[ 24 March 2002: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]</p>

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> it is just worth 75 points in your race setup, characteristics-happiness, 3 per cent up. <hr></blockquote>I don't think that's the same thing.

A Fate Shrine acts like a system wide Urban Pacification Center; it will eventually push the planets to Jubilant and keep them there.

I think a racial bonus to happiness just changes the boundaries where the levels start.

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by capnq:
it will eventually push the planets to Jubilant and keep them there.

I think a racial bonus to happiness just changes the boundaries where the levels start.<hr></blockquote>

Interesting, sometimes it looks like a kind of startup bonus, other times not, I think this would be hard to prove since you do not know if you are at the edge between Happy and Jubilant. I did not always see a push to a higher level happiness immediately, sometimes it takes a while.

Re: Do the Religious Shrines work?
 

Sorry I never did get to finish these tests... but I shall...

In summary as I left it, I was left thinking that *possibly* one world out of my 10-world setp was somehow immune to events, anyway...

I'll try this again sometime, as noted I was using a single event and a heavy weight on the f12 key.