Ban-a-thon
 

Wow. I go away for a few weeks and some of the most knowledgable players in the game have been mass banned? Makes me question why I came back. Is there a boilerplate comment about the incident?

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

might wanna check out these threads: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45509 ; http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45498

it all started with Sombre getting perma banned for "disregarding the forum rules" which later turned into "he was treated with silk gloves but enough is enough" and than the majority of the community jumped into the thick of things in Sombre's defense, things got quite rough and the mods decided to not let it slide and ban the main "troublemakers" as they(not me) called them, so Maerlande, Frozen Lama and Trumanator were also perma banned. don't think anybody else was, but I do know that Burnsaber also left these forums due to this whole incident, so now the modding forums is missing its 2 main contributors(Sombre and Burnsaber).

for more information hop into our IRC channel, there's still an ongoing discussion about this even now, the ripples of it just won't die...

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

Mass Ban? I thought it was 2

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

There were 4.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

Ironhawk:

But Shrapnel people were much better at insulting :)

Anyway, new forums are coming, I wonder how many people will stay here... I guess both sides will be happy. We, that we don't have to deal with Shrapnel and Shrapnel that does not have to bother about people that already bought the game.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

ok I found out (asked in IRC)

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

At the risk of being unpopular, I have always found that forum trolls are always of detriment to the community regardless of whatever contributions they make. They drive away new people and make others want to leave or not participate.

Any mods those guys made are contributions prior. They can still play--they just can't be nasty on the forums which is how it was explained.

If they want to get hot over spitting in the face of the mods after being offered a chance to return, that's fine. I'm sure there are other people who will be more than willing to take up the slack that was left from their departure, and perhaps with weeds pulled the community as a whole will be better off.

I don't have anything against any of them personally, nor do I know the event that caused the bans in the first place and I don't care. I have been on many forums and without qualification, trolls are always a negative force regardless of how much useful information may be stored within them. Anything within them can be found elsewhere.

I spent probably 30 minutes the other day responding to what I thought was a request for strategy assistance only to find that it was some dude trolling and trying to start fights by insulting anyone who tried to help in earnest for whatever purpose. That thread has been deleted. Forums are Dictatorships not Democracies. Rules are generalities not absolutes. Mods have discretionary power to do what they decide is best for the community in general.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

How does banning even work? If it's just based on the name, then its a trivial matter to re-register under a different one.

If its based on IP, most people don't have a static one. And if whole ranges of IPs are blocked, you're potentially banning innocents that use the same ISP.

That's why I'm convinced that Norfleet is still lurking around here somewhere ...

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

How does any punishment work for anything? Internet or real world. Same comments, same answers.

And I agree about Norfleet.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showp...1&postcount=35

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

Sombre - made mods, you know exactly why he was banned, and if you don't it's very easy to figure it out why since it is posted both here and in more complete detail on the forum people are migrating to. Sombre never spit in the face of the mods for offering to return him... he was never offered this so far as I'm aware. If you want to accuse him of doing something, at least make sure it's something he actually did.

Maerlande - did not make mods, had a grudge against septimius and said some things about him in the past, definitely a troll, but the vast majority of this was of a subtle and/or harmless type. With regards to the deleted thread in question, I once again refute accusations of baiting people into arguments. I saw that thread, I posted in it, and you and peter ebesson were being just as abusive of him there as sombre ever has been, I am not kidding at all when I say this. The two of you got the already hostile IRC crowd riled up, and that's what got you hit. Sorry, but it was your own fault. *shrug*

Frozen Lama and Trumanator - Neither modders or trolls. Perfectly helpful and decent members of the community, until they were set off by the banning. They got banned because they wanted to be banned, no more, no less. Don't go painting everyone with the same brush, whether out of malice, ignorance, or laziness.

There are a good number of IRC folk with similar opinions who just did not go so far as to get themselves banned, and IRC people constitute probably at least 70% of people who regularly post advice to people. You may be an experienced enough player not to care about these people leaving the forums, but there are a lot of people who SHOULD care. Anyway I have nothing else to add to this that wasn't said yesterday.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

[quote=Zeldor;744103]Ironhawk:

I'm deleting my post as it probably doesn't contribute anything helpful to the debate.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

Shrapnel uses an IP block. Apparently it is not very hard to get around the block at all, should one so choose. No one banned has registered a new name so far as I'm aware, though, so I wouldn't go looking for any of them to be making any new posts.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

Eh? I was asking a technical question: How does whatever-they-do actually prevent banned people from using the forum?

rdonj said they use an IP block, but if that means just blocking a single IP, thats never going to be effective in our DHCP world.

There's no analogy to this problem in the real world (that I can think of).

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

I did not make any rude comments. I didn't say anything insulting except to reference the fact that the suggested strategy was not a good one. In the beginning, I suggested that rather cordially, but when he began trolling via insult, I responded more bluntly. Then the troll-posters proceeded to try to make fun of me for not understanding their inside info--I don't hang on IRC, so I have no idea what they're talking about. I pop on to look for strategy info, play with mods, and help out if people need something.

I don't come here for drama. If people want to talk about me on some IRC channel that's fine. People who make decisions about my character without reason are probably not going to like me anyway. That doesn't make me a bad person just to not be liked by some random Internet people. I'm sure there are plenty of fine people to talk to who have better manners.

As for the "Sombre wasn't offered a chance" defense, I believe, I can refer you to Annette's posting wherein she offered to let him stay provided he agreed not to continue his negative behavior and he refused to do so. I assume he was trying to leverage the fact that he's good at making mods to give him free reign to do as he pleased on the boards which is an invalid argument.

That being said, I'm not going to continue responding to this nonsense hereafter. I was not talking about the other two mentioned, only Sombre and Maerlund, though Tru was trolling in the aforesaid thread as well.

Thank you,

V

...and I'm not a mean person, but I do reserve the right to defend myself when attacked. Although, I do not do so through childish name calling and mockery, but through valid and hopefully profitable debate.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

Rdonj...

You are right - neither you nor I know whether sombre was offered a chance to return; whether he chose to ignore it or not.
So we really have nothing to contribute to the conversation.

As for peter, Ver, etc. they were mocked far before they responded. Remember the

no

no

no

yes, you don't get it post? Even well past that post they were trying to respond helpfully. It may be your opinion that this is perfectly acceptable behavior. It isn't mine.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

Chrisp - it is my opinion that verjigorm and PE's behavior was much more unacceptable in that thread than maerlande's ever was. Other people may have descended to the same level.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

As an observer to the thread, I think the Sombre-supporting crowd was the primary instigator of abuse in that thread. Verjigorm and P.E. were being perfectly helpful until certain members incessantly taunted them. I think there are some double-standards being applied here, where some people are allowed to be blunt or harsh or sarcastic or abusive, while others aren't, and the latter group isn't even allowed to respond with the same tone. Either that, or there has been some kind of memory lapse.

The final post made by Annette in the latest thread implied that Sombre was not completely candid. Of course there are several people who, having already labelled her as a liar, would obviously consider that a lie to and would not bother to listen; this rather adds to the list of lies as far as they are concerned.

For me, I don't particularly care. However, given the conflict with their stories, I have no reason to believe either side unconditionally, though it doesn't help Shrapnel that they have no provision for open information, such as an openly viewable "administrative board" that some forums have. My stance is always that if I feel that I don't want to be in this forum anymore, I don't have to. And I don't have to spew a bunch of profanities or spam in order to get banned.

I will add that I never actually thought that Sombre was very obnoxious as far as what I saw on the forums. Impatient and occasionally not always thinking enough before posting, but never truly obnoxious. I don't know what goes on elsewhere. The same cannot be said for some members of the group who came to his defence after the banning, who preferred to resort to the least effective method of argument possible, and more importantly were indiscriminate in their attacks. I think they did a lot of the things they accused Shrapnel of, and sometimes reminded me of the Chinese Red Guard insofar that anybody who did not support them unconditionally were demonized too. Sometimes I wonder if the people who rebel against authority do it for self-righteousness rather than righteousness.

As for IP blocks, they mean exactly nothing. I know. Don't look at me like that, I was twelve at that time!

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

I truly wish that thread had not been deleted... Now it can be used to justify any opinion. With it gone, people can say that I said anything. Remember, that just because you wanted to feel a certain way about what I posted doesn't mean that I felt that way when I wrote it. Emotional context does not exist in text, and I always tell people not to mix their own feelings into things other people say online. Not that you care.

If you know I started it, why don't you repost quotes from the thread that you saved as evidence?

Bah... I shouldn't be typing or responding. You're just trying to suck me into another troll thread.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

Hi Zapmeister:

Actually our bans work on a couple of levels. Still there are always ways around any ban. The biggest detriment to the banned individual is that they can no longer use their username on the forums.

We haven't had to ban that many individuals, and most just don't come back, but every once in a while we have those trying to come back on with a new identity. We usually catch them in registration or not long after. Most people find it hard to change their ways and you can usually tell when someone has returned. And if they do return, change their ways, follow the rules, and play nice, well usually that is all we wanted from them from the beginning...

Hope that helps.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

[opinionated rant on]
The answer is that it doesnt. Just like nothing ever stops anything. Locks dont stop crime, death sentence doesnt stop killings, copy protection doesnt stop piracy, tickets dont stop speeding.

Ive been involved in enforcement at various levels in both real and virtual worlds for a couple of decades and I hear it so often. My usual response is "Its not my job to stop anything. If it was then things would be done quite differently. Its my job to make it as difficult as possible for as many as possible for as long as possible hoping they get the hint". The deeper purpose is to usually to avoid open blatant in-your-face violations.

In the case of IP bans, no they dont stop reconnection. A person can probably make it back in, under a new name, and act in a way that no one figures out its him/her. But if they can pull that off then isnt the purpose served anyway?
[/end of rant]

The above statements are not meant to any way reflect the opinions of the management, the military, my employer, nor any other organization I have ever been associated with.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

Maerlande was only able to save the last 2 pages of the thread, which don't really interest me. Also he has been too lazy to put them up yet, so I'm afraid I can't :(

Anyway I actually have no intention of turning this into another troll thread. I just wanted to post in response to what I felt were unfair and untrue claims about another poster. Anyway I don't really feel like there's anything else I need to respond to here right now. I've said my peace.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

The interesting question is - if admins would do the same if they could return to the past, when they know that they provoked half of active players to provoke them. And then they decided that they should kick of those trouble makers, just to save face. Some of banned had really started trolling and provocations, but it was just a reaction on what admins did.
So, I think nobody is happy. Those banned have to spend affords building new forum, admins will have less messages and hits on a forum, which will not make their life happier, at least those who really care about doms 3 forum. I'm sure some admins work on different shrapnel game forums and just don't care about dom3 community and more concerned about rules that could fit all games forums. Gamers were acting too emotionally, but admins as well, even if they tell now that it was a result of just logical thinking. We all are people and always have emotions, that's crazy to deny it.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

I think your numbers are abit skewed, and yes they probably would.
Its not like this hasnt happened before.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

Hi Verjigorm:

What was the thread title? We never delete anything on purpose. The thread still exists. It was just moved to a private area.

Regards,

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

Mr Brooks - it was the thread about communions. I can't remember the exact name. But started by maerlande.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

He wasn't even ever banned actually as far as I know.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

I don't think Maer, Frozen Lama and Trumanator were banned for repeated behavior. I think they were banned because they called moderators liars, told them to shove things in exit holes, compared them to Nazis etcetera. I am sure it earned them e-high-fives and they could care less.

Ultimately, they didn't like the forum rules/evil community/ evil mods or whatever and decided to go out with a text bang that would bring them some street cred or whatever e-thug merit badge they earned on the new forum.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

It was called communion something... It was a thread that looked like requests for strategy assistance.

Restoration of the thread, even if it was locked, would be appreciated as it would at least allow people to make their own judgments rather than relying on hearsay.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

I think it was called Mastering Communions. Not 100% positive.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

Fair enough Verjigorm. I will have it moved back but it will be locked, as it was just a form of spam. The thread title is "Managing Communions - the sombre challenge". The thread is here.

Best regards,

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

Squirrelloid and pyg, you are both trying your best to push our buttons. If you'd like to continue to enjoy use of our boards, it's time to cease the games.

Annette

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

I fail to see how Squirrelloid's response was in any way deserving of such a warning, as it came across as a simple recounting of events... but this is still progress. A public offense and a public reprimand. Now no one will wonder how long Squirrel has been a "continueing problem".

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

It was mentioned in the thread that English was not the native language of some of the people that got angry over the thread. Sarcasm often doesn't translate well through written text, and if they truly did not speak English as a first language, can you imagine how hard it would be to "get" the joke, especially since not everyone spends as much time on the forum as some of us.

Are you suggesting that the people who got upset in that thread be punished for not getting the joke?

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

On more thing while we're on the subject and then I'm done with it...

It may be obvious to many that I am on Sombre's side. But here's why:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...ell#post739462

A moderator on this forum threatened to make Sombre's life a living hell.

This is so out of line that I cannot even begin to express my disgust. When I read this I was furious and intent on contacting the admins about this. However, I waited 'till I had a chance to get Sombre's take on it... he wasn't happy, but he was nowhere near as incensed as I. So, I didn't pursue it any further... but if your curious where Sombre's "lack of respect for the mods" originated, I suspect you need look no further than the above referenced post.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

What are you all talking about, neither Squirrelloid nor myself have posted anything in this thread.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

Annette,

There was a question as to what happened in the thread. The thread is now restored and thus I have endeavored to answer the questions with citations. I fail to see how my post is any more out of line than previous discussion on said thread, especially as it involves actual evidence rather than hearsay. Further, I fail to see how contributing to a substantial discussion is a game.

I have been generally reasonable and articulated my position, my questions, and my objections logically with respect to recent events when the situation warranted.

I will confess to participating in some punning and humor in the referenced thread. If this was against the ToS I will gladly cease with the punning.

If you would care to be more specific about how my conduct has been objectionable, then perhaps I will be able to satisfy you.

Sincerely,
Squirrelloid

P.S. Since my post is deleted, would you kindly delete all other posts in this thread discussing what occurred in the referenced thread? I can't imagine they can possibly be appropriate if mine wasn't.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

I did put a big disclaimer on how much I thought Verjigorm was responsible.

Peter was directly and specifically attacking and baiting Maerlande. Even if english is somehow not his first language, that is no defense of his conduct. And if you actually read my post you'd know that. (Edit: Not that you can read it anymore apparently, although the original thread speaks for itself).

Edit Edit: I also never suggested anyone get punished.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

That's kind of like trying to pickpocket someone, and then complaining when he beats you up.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

Nice to see the Communions thread restored. It was a hackfest, but it deserved to be seen.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

Dude, when people follow your link, they are going to see the comment in the original context it was presented in, which will actually make Sombre look bad. You would have been better served to not post a link to the thread and just say something random like "A mod threatened Sombre".

FFS Sombre needs new lackies, you guys are terrible at spin.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

Of course, Dom Nerds are not great at spin.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

Squirrelloid:

Why do you think the members of this forum need your play by play? You weren't in on the discussion that brought about me reinstating the thread, and just pop in to make sure you could point fingers at who you thought was responsible? I think the forum members are quite able to draw their own conclusions. So in my book your post was not only unnecessary but was an attempt to create discord. We have had enough discord around here, so please cool it.

Regards,

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

I wasn't trying to spin. Sombre was out of line... barely.

PLEASE tell me in what circumstances you would find it acceptable to be told by ANYONE that they were going to make your life a living hell.

Spin that.

Edit: I should have typed "ANYONE in a position of authority" just in case you were prepared to reply that your friends say it all the time.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

Just lock this one Tim. before it gets out of hand.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

That is spin. But it's salvagable... Having deleted Squirrelloid's post of what actually occured in the thread, I respectfully request that you delete the other posts in this thread that recount imaginary events in the thread.

Or maybe you deleted his post because it recounted exactly what happened and that didn't reflect well on Shrapnel or the people aligned with Shrapnel in this dialouge.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

I can respect that it may have caused discord. However, since the other discussion of the same thread also can't help but do the same thing, shouldn't those posts also be deleted? Or, following your reasoning, should VFB have been allowed to post what I did verbatim simply because he was indicted in the earlier discussion?

As to why I felt my post was useful, previous discussion in this thread involved a lot of scapegoating that was contrary to the facts. All I did was highlight the relevant facts. I certainly hope its not acceptable to make posts scapegoating people who are no longer even on these boards to defend themselves, especially since the reason the thread was re-instated was that so evidence could be accessed to ascertain the truth.

For the promotion of harmony, this will be my last post on the subject (and in this thread). But I certainly hope you follow through on the logic of your reasoning and remove all the posts which attempt to assign blame for the events of that thread.

Sincerely,
Squirrelloid

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

That is why I reinstated the thread. So that people could draw there own conclusions from the facts.

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

Uh, wouldn't the actual thread do that - recount exactly what happened?

Re: Ban-a-thon
 

So, others can talk about "what happened" earlier in the thread, but Squirrelloid can't talk about "what happened"?

Did I drink a liter of scotch without realizing it? Because I'm confused.

Oh. Wait... I get it. After the thread is opened, there's no longer any need to discuss "what happened"? Because it's all there in the original thread. And Squirrelloid's post was deleted because it had inappropriate content or violated the ToS somehow?

I got it.

Nope... sorry, Lou. I lost it.