Dispel Question
 

I was talking to a very knowledgeable player and he mentioned something that really made me think...

If he is correct, then 1149 is the most S gems that can be used in a dispel spell.

That would be 150 for the spell and 999 max extra gems added (anyway that is all that will count) for a total of 1149.

So what happens if I have 1200 invested in Well of Misery? Does it AUTO DISPEL because I used the max...OR am I now immune to dispel? Could be a game decider.

As long as I am asking questions, I have 1 more a little off this topic.

IF I cast Dispel and it does take down the spell, and then cast 500 D gems on Well of misery, will the dispel spell go first so it is clear and I will get the slot automatically. I would not want to throw away 500 death gems if the slot wasn't clear.

Of course all of this would be end game with the number of gems I am talking about, but I am curious.

Any help would be appreciated!!:up:

Re: Dispel Question
 

For Dispel (or overwrite) attempts only the extra gems count. The base cost doesn't matter. (Shouldn't it be 1029, anyway? Isn't Dispel only 30 gems?)

Ritual spells are cast in (pseudo)random order. Caster id or reverse caster id. So the Well could come first and then the Dispel.

Re: Dispel Question
 

There's a die roll involved in the dispel, it's described in the manual. The amount of gems used generally overwhelms the relatively small amount of variation from the die roll, but when you're talking about min or max gem usage die roll is what matters. Also, don't forget that caster level factors in, so a level 9/10 pretender putting up a 999 gem spell is pretty tough nut to crack. In extreme (large game) cases it can even be worthwhile to empower up even higher if you're putting up a game winning global that is certain to have a big dispel cast at it.

Re: Dispel Question
 

As far as I know, the maximum number of gems you can put in a global is 999. This number of 999 includes both the base cost and the extra gems. So, the more expensive the base cost, the less maximum extra gems you can put. Only extra gems count towards overwrite or dispel attempts. This means that dispel, being the cheapest global, can have the most extra gems put into it and therefore should be able to dispel any other spell. Of course, factors such as caster level and drn also factor in the equation.

Re: Dispel Question
 

Psycho nailed it.

Re: Dispel Question
 

Yes 30 gems :doh: is correct on dispel cost.

So what your saying is I can only cast a global using 999 TOTAL gems and no more.

Therefore, it can ALWAYS be dispelled.

Re: Dispel Question
 

Ok, then the total Gems ever spent on the Global itself can be 999, therefore the largest Genm cost that can be cast to Dispel is also 999 (plus gem cost to cast).

All things being equal, then the Caster may be the difference in keeping or dispelling the Global.

Am I understanding this correctly?

Re: Dispel Question
 

You'll also have an advantage in most cases, since the path requirements for Dispel are relatively low. You can get a better caster level bonus with Dispel than with the Nexus, for example.

Re: Dispel Question
 

yes; I do want to point out however that the Death globals, Well of Misery, but especially Burden of time are a little special.

The Rod of Dark Regency (or whatever its called) plus the jade mask (or whatever its called). plus wizards robe, plus row plus ros means that theoretically a

D10 wiz + 3 (regency) +2 for mask, +2 for rings + robe = d18caster.
If you want to push the example even further you could use a 4 armed caster to add an additional 2 bonus.

This is the only case that I know where you may be able to make an (almost) non dispellable global.

The point I am making is that death magic can be more difficult to dispell due to the number of path boni from artifacts.

People tend to forget the extrapaths portion. But in the previous example, 11 extra paths for a burden of time(?) can lead to consternation by your opponents.

Re: Dispel Question
 

This all sounds great in theory, but in reality you can add as many boosters as you want and it won't make one bit of difference when it comes to the calculations involving globals.

As it is only the base magic level of the caster that is considered for the +5 per level bonus you get for each level over the casting requirements, and any extra levels gained from boosters are ignored.

I believe this has been confirmed by lch from the game code, and also ties in with some brief testing I did last year when I first learned about this myself following an IRC conversation I had with Micah.

Re: Dispel Question
 

Yes, Calahan is correct on the magic boosters being ignored.

Re: Dispel Question
 

A specific magic site bonus should reduce the cost for a global so is that an alternative to put extra gems in the casting/dispel?

Re: Dispel Question
 

It should, but it doesn't work that way.

Also, if boosters *did* count, there are a total of a +7 for items that boost Astral that could go onto a caster at any given time (like the demi-lich) with 3 misc slots.

+1 rod, +2 F/S booster (the name eludes me), hat, robe, and 2 of coin/ros/row. Given that dispell requires 3, while BoT requires 5, that nets you a total of a slight advantage dispelling.

Not that it actually matters, unless that's ever fixed.

Re: Dispel Question
 

I wonder why it is a good idea and how it could be a game decider to spend 1200 gems to get back 21 a turn, so after about 50 turns it will be finished paying for itself. I know about the gold bonus too, but it doesnt seem too much of a "game-deciding" factor to me either.

Re: Dispel Question
 

So, if boosters don't count for the path bonus in Dispel attempts, do youjut not get a bonus, or can you get a penalty?

If I use 2 boosters to get up to the level needed to cast the global, am I at -10 against dispel attempts? Or does it just stop at no bonus?

Re: Dispel Question
 

Interesting. I did not know that and in which case I've definitely been wasting a lot of items.

Testing is in order. (not that I don't believe you cal, but because I do).

Re: Dispel Question
 

Earcaraxe...

1. It was just a hypothetical spell picked at random...say it was Arcane Nexus that I put 1200 gems into and then it you could not dispel it. I could conceivably have those gems back in 5 to 7 turns and wish you into oblivion.

2. You will find in this game that there is no telling what someone will do. Let us just say for instance....

You have Arcane Nexus fairly early and it is dispelled but you have 1200 gems to put into recasting it (not at all out of the realm of possibility). IF 1200 gems would make you safe from any further dispel possibilities (remember this is early mid game)and you had a decent Death income, you could actually wish for gems...keep the death at 25, alchemize the rest which would give you back most of your Astral gems and repeat.

If you had 2 wishers you could do it faster.

The purpose of spending the 1200 D gems for well of misery is two fold...A. keep it out of enemy hands and B. you have it the rest of the game and with wishers you can run it up fairly quick.

That is just an answer to your question of Why and how you could fo it IF it was done that way,

However, since 999 is all that can be used, the point is moot.