known backstabbers
 

I decided to create start a thread with known list of backstabbers. Though diplomacy is Machiavellian in most of games, still breaking NAPs and given words should affect people's reputation. Feel free to add your posts in a proposed format: player, games. Be ready to explain the story, but it's not necessary unless the one who is blamed in breaking NAP wants to protest. I don't want a list to be too long and I represent those players who would prefer more honesty in relations, so the goal of this list is not to mark anyone who did it in the remote past, but to make people think twice when planning doing it in the future. So post only those NAP breaks which happened after first post of this thread was made. I know many players believe that backstabing is a normal part of the game. I don't mind. This list is to help newbie players, who have no dozens of games to know who is who of players, to get rid of pink glassess before they were backstabbed themselves by closest neighbor.

1. *removed by Annette
2. *removed by Annette

Re: known backstabbers
 

If you have problems with backstabbing, why don't you join games with binding diplomacy?

Re: known backstabbers
 

I have no problems with backstabbing. Just many players want to track backstabbers, it's different.And such list has a sense only for the games with non-binding diplo. In binding diplo games, there are usually in-game methods to punish violators. There are 2 possible extremums, with this diplomacy issue. One extremum is binding dimoplacy. Another is no dimoplacy at all. Without such thing as reputation, we will have more games with defacto no dimoplacy. So the games tend to become one of 2 kindes - binding dimoplacy and no dimoplacy at all. Having such a list creates some sense to at least think twice before making such decision and could lead more games to be of a kind, which is declared - "non-binding dimplacy" as something between two extremums.

Re: known backstabbers
 

Many players have no problem at all with backstabbing, as they correctly view it as simply another part of a normal game of Dominions. As Hadrian II says, if anyone doesn't like backstabbing, or the prospect of backstabbing, then they should only play in games with binding diplomacy.

I think this thread will be just about the easiest and most guaranteed way of offending any player that gets listed here. Since from their view they are just playing Dominions the way a lot of players play the game, and indeed view it as playing normally. But in return for this they get branded as 'untrustworthy' by players who feel they have been wronged and betrayed by a player who backstabbed them, and so list them here just to get their revenge (which I'm sure is exactly why you have created this thread in the first place).


Edit: Here's a thread of the last time this sort of list was tried.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=35565

Re: known backstabbers
 

We have democracy here. And, of course, backstabber don't want to be marked.
To avoid such situation as you described - strict description of backstabbing is created - NAP is signed and broken with no notification. I like games with non-binding diplo, and I like backstabbers. Just I want to track them. Any problems? If you don't like the idea, ignore this thread. I know that opinions about backstabbing is 50x50. This thread is for those 50% who want know who is backstabbing because they backstab less or do not backstab. Respect the fact of our existance.
As for revenge.. it is easy to blame in being personal. But it's not a first thread I started about backstabbing. And I see the problem much wider then revange to one player. I just want to know reputation of players and i want to give newbie players this info.

Also , I created this list not to discuss if the idea bad or not. If you don't want to post anything, do not troll here, and create another thread about this thread. This thread is only for the reporting backstabbing. Or about HOW to report it. Not about if it should be reported or not. If you have an idea how to report it more fair - you are welcome. But you should be constructive for the idea in general.

Re: known backstabbers
 

Im all for honorable playing. But backstabbing threads, and others along that line, have been deleted in the past.
After all, its all just opinion

Its probably best just to make note of the people who play honorably. Such as Baalz good player pledge thread

Re: known backstabbers
 

If someone deletes it it means that it is some kind of violation here. I would be glad to hear it from admins as I didn't see any rules that prohibit it. As for me this thread will only add value, as will give newbie players more realistic view on diplomacy in Dom3, and will help them to have proper expectations.Hardcode dominions players will not find here something new or worthy for them. They know each other and they just don't care if the person they know for years backstabbed someone else, some newbie. Why deleting a thread which adds value? And why would admins did intervention here at all?

Re: known backstabbers
 

I agree, I have trouble with the idea of blacklists, etc.

Of course it is up to the moderators to decide.

Re: known backstabbers
 

If you have trouble - don't read and don't write.Your rights are not violated. Just some part of community will implement their right on free communication. And If other players want backstab-list, and you want to use a BIG GUN (admins) in protecting your point of view on this point (as far as I understand, that it the purpose of your post), it will not be something new. And it is not a black list at all, btw. It's sharing of information.

Re: known backstabbers
 

I'm actually all for you on the idea that people should honor agreements in the game world and in the real world whenever and wherever possible. If the game allows backstabbing that of course is a different story I guess. I am certainly not jumping to attack you or anything. Anything we can learn from and we can discuss maturely, has merit IMO. I do hate the idea of labeling people though. Perhaps it will result in more honorable conduct in games , that is a possibility. But perhaps there's another way to go about it, say with a pledge post. I know I would sign such a pledge.:up:

Re: known backstabbers
 

If they delete the thread here, you can always take it to the wanker forum. They are longing for some drama over there. :angel

Re: known backstabbers
 

A thread that promotes arguments and bad feeling amongst the players in this community is certainly not adding value to it. And if you think a thread such as this is not going to lead to such problems, then you are certainly going to be in the minority with that opinion.
They would intervene because part of their job as admin / moderator is to ensure there are no threads on this forum that encourage flame wars / arguments / hostility between forum members. And one member openly branding other members as dishonest / untrustworthy / a cheat, is certainly not going to be viewed as something that encourages 'hugs and kisses' between members.


And I am not trolling thank you very much, I am pointing out for your benefit why threads such as this are a bad idea, and as Gandalf points out, why several such threads have been taken down in the past by the moderators. You are by no means the first person to attempt such a list, and you won't be the last. But such a list will never be a good idea on these forums, as they only ever serve to create an environment of bad feeling that is certainly unwanted in this Dominions community. (especially given the rough ride this community has had recently).

Re: known backstabbers
 

I noticed that people in games act like they do in real life. So if they are an jerk in the game, they are probably one in real life too.

I see this all the time in MMORPGS. Some people grief low level noobs all day long. It has nothing to do with roleplaying, they are just jerks, plain and simple.

But I agree that a thread like this will create a big flame war. And the devs don't seem to allow that on this forum.

Re: known backstabbers
 

where is the wanker forum, i only found multiplayer and mods forums?:re:

Re: known backstabbers
 

I'm afraid you do not get the idea of this list then, Calahan.
This thread is not about "bad feelings", I expect it not to "encourage flame wars / arguments / hostility between forum members".
But, as for another part of your message, about "branding other members as dishonest / untrustworthy / a cheat " - some trolls troll forums. And there are trolls who troll games, joining them and destroying them from inside, killing all interest and demotivating to join new. And purpose of this thread - is some level of NATURAL control that player community can have to protect itself against these trolls.

I'm absolutely agree that many emotions, blamings, branding as something bad - doesn't add pleasure. But pleasure should not be based on illusions. Because if it's based on illusions, at the end of the day you will have disillusion, and it will lead to much worse emotions then those you are talking here about.

Re: known backstabbers
 

I also feel that unless noted that all treaties of any kind should be kept. I also have the reputation of NEVER breaking my word.

I keep a list of those I play with who I feel have acted dishonorably, and those who I trust. I often get asked for my 'lists' but I will not give them out.

I think that it upsets the balance when there is a public list as there really ARE two sides to every action, not to mention that they may do something ONCE and then never do it agian.

I respect your right to create whatever list you want....but keep in mind, once you brand someone in public you will always become a target of them and others like them.

I personally chose to act like I ignore it and take care of it later, as Michael Corleone said "Revenge tastes best when it is cold"

Re: known backstabbers
 

To avoid flame war and banning for flame, let's be simple - if you want to discuss the idea - join IRC or PM me. Do not kill this thread by trolling. Create another thread for this as I already asked.

Re: known backstabbers
 

Ashdod plz, thank you
and I'm a known backstabber
refrigerator

Re: known backstabbers
 

A few decades ago, when boardgames were the only way to do multiplayer anything, there was this notion in some circles that games should be independant of each other.

In other words, it was thought best not to let the legacy of any game carry over to the next. Without that principle, it was impossible for players to experiment with different levels of reliability (as an ally).

I subscribe to that idea. If a backstab, even if perfectly legal in the context of the game, is going to wind up haunting you forever than you're not ever going to do it. There's one aspect of multiplayer gameplay down the drain.

Just my 2c. The list that this thread was intended to compile WOULD be used as a black-list, and that would be a Bad Thing IMHO.

Re: known backstabbers
 

I Love you, Pyg :)

Re: known backstabbers
 

Zapmeister, I understand your point, and in theory, in some kind of community it could be a good idea to have such experiment with such rules. No problems. But I do not see anything good to prohibit other to do what THEY want and to organize their subcommunity who has own understanding. Live and let live.
And I'm not agree that it will be a black list. A LOT of people backstab and treat it normal. So it defenetely can't lead to obstruction of some players. We need all of them - both backstabbing and not. And, if you want to play in unexpected manner - login from new account.

Re: known backstabbers
 

I'm just posting to increase the size of my, err, reputation. Thank me for it and be rewarded in the afterlife.

Re: known backstabbers
 

Done! And you deserved it too - this post helped me solve a problem. Hmm, I should thank lch as well.

Re: known backstabbers
 

Please lock this thread. Or, even, delete it.

Re: known backstabbers
 

For my part, I keep a personal list of people who takes the game too seriously.

These kind of threads never lead to anything good, at best they get locked fast enough to avoid harm. Militarist, this isn't about what your intentions are, to quote V:"I have not come for what you hoped to do, I've come for what you did"

Re: known backstabbers
 

We've had threads like this before that have not been locked or deleted and they died on their own fairly quickly. For the time being, the thread is being watched. No reason to shut it down yet and we hope there won't be.

Re: known backstabbers
 

I beg to differ Edi, two players have been publicly labeled as backstabbers in the first post, that should be bad enough.

Re: known backstabbers
 

I too pledge...oh wait this is the wrong thread?

Or is it?

Re: known backstabbers
 

+1

Two players have already had their reputations unfairly tarnished in this thread, and that is already two too many.


If the original poster edits the OP to remove the two forum members he has named there, then this thread then does become fine IMO. Since there is nothing wrong with discussing the merits and pitfalls (such as loss of reputation) of backstabbing. But publicly damaging a players reputation by naming them in a derogatory list such as the one in the OP is another matter altogether.

Are you kidding me militarist???

How can you call me a backstabber? WE NEVER HAD AN NAP.

Let me setup the situation for everyone:

I have no NAP with militarist, have just finished a victorious war and notice that he has even put ONE pd in most of his provinces. So what do I do? Attack. Not only is this not backstabbing, it common sense.

You're just upset because you learned two hard lessons (mistakes I too sometimes make):

1.) make NAPs with everyone who you do not want to fight

2.) put at least 1 PD in your provinces

I've seen you enough around these forums to suspect that you are familiar with the concept of PD, diplomacy and NAPs. So I guess you are just very frustrated that you lost like 6-7 provinces in one turn. But please don't libel me for your own mistakes.

Edit: I know people have been talking about a flame war, and I didn't want to take part in it, so sorry about that...but really, I DO consider myself an honorable player and am quite miffed at militarist for blatantly trying to defame me.

Re: known backstabbers
 

This is pretty much why the thread should never have been started.

Re: known backstabbers
 

yeah, I shouldn't have been so brash with my statements, there are better ways to defend one's rep.

Re: known backstabbers
 

Labelling anyone as a backstabber if he backstabs you in a non-binding diplomacy game is just retarded. In a game like that, everyone is expected to backstab you anyway, and if you get backstabbed unexpectedly, you should either consider yourself dumb for trusting him or congratulate him for playing his cards well.

Then again, all a list does is make players who don't understand machivellian diplomacy be scared of people who do. I would like to congratulate the two people named in the first post for playing the game well.

Naturally if someone breaks the rules of the game in a game with binding diplomacy, that's a different case.

Re: known backstabbers
 

I'm all for individuals remembering who backstabbed them from game to game. Conditioned expectations are fine.

I'm not ok with people publicly sharing such information. Each backstab is unique, dictated by the circumstances involved, and the idea of this thread reduces any backstab to just another 'player X stabs' without any regard to context.

Basically, acquire your own data, because then you have context for every stab. You cannot appreciate the context for a stab in a game you did not participate in, so other people's data is inherently suspect.

Re: known backstabbers
 

There can only be one. Every player is a backstabber. Guild wins. Others lose. Spears of light in the darkness.

Re: known backstabbers
 

I think it's great that everyone has posted here to say this isn't a good idea - I agree that it really isn't a good idea. Thinking along the same lines as Edi, I won't lock it now, in case there is more useful debate to be had. But such a list is never going to work well.

militarist, I think it would be great if you removed the names of the two players from the first post, since it is clear that there are at least two sides to the story and having them there is quite harsh.

Re: known backstabbers
 

The problem with a thread like this is the He Said/She Said BS (or He Said/He Said or She Said/She Said if you prefer).... You can't necessarily believe anything..

As far as NAP Crap goes...

Some people forge NAPs and then use the NAP as a weapon. That's one of the points of the NAP. Just because a contract was made doesn't mean that it's beneficial to both parties. Thus, in order to continue the game in an appropriate manner, someone must necessarily break said arrangement.

There are many reasons to break arrangements. I think you're just miffed because you lost or are losing a game. Just relax.

Re: known backstabbers
 

Didn't mean to say that naming people was okay, but more along the lines of how this sort of threads have been dealt in the past. IIRC I have promised all sorts of death, destruction and rocks falling from the sky on people who cause too much trouble with things like this. The administrators are aware of the issue.

Re: known backstabbers
 

We had a list like this come up recently in another area of the forums. Labeling other players with a specific style of play falls under invasion of privacy. Including them in a list with the purpose of negatively adding to their reputation is defamatory. Under 'moral conduct" of our forum rules, you'll find these are not allowed. It's great to see so many of you chime in to say that publicly hosting a list such as this can be disastrous. And who wants more disasters right now? I agree that it's okay to keep your list, militarist, just keep in your head.

Here's a quote from a couple of years ago on how the game's designers view backstabbing (thanks, Calahan, for the finding the thread with this post by Kristoffer):

Re: known backstabbers
 

Usually the best Non-Aggression Pacts have an out clause. Something like "dont attack for 5 turns" or "allied with a 3 turn notification before aggression". I would think that there is a difference between properly breaking a NAP vs using one to get someone to empty their border so you can rush in and attack (which I would consider to be backstabbing). The problem is that we just hear continual back and forth about the two sides of the story, or people saying the game should be played that way anyway. And the purpose of such a list rings false. It comes off more as a whine. The person posting might THINK its a service.

But if someone is that concerned about someone you have an agreement with then there is usually a thread here in the forum and the person you are wondering about has posted. Just click on their name to get a nice menu of options including "Find all Posts by" which can be much more informative than someone posting their name to a list. Check and see if arguments have popped up in other games and why. Sometimes you can learn that its a simple counting error. To quote a line from many movies.. "WAIT. Do we go on 3? or is it 1,2,3 then go?" Knowing thatcan go a long way to avoiding problems.

Re: known backstabbers
 

Militarist, I gave a quick read to your game thread - Greenstone, right? - and I am curious. Are you complaining that these two players broke NAPs with you? Or are you complaining for somebody else?

This stuff should never have escaped your game thread, period. From Greenstone:

P.S. It's Hadrian_II's game.

Re: known backstabbers
 

My thoughts:

I learned to hate NAPs early on. Way too restricting. I still make deals all the time, but I never get into anything binding if I can help it, in fact, I will straighten out anyone who misapprehends my intentions ("I said I didn't want a war right now, but that does not mean I agreed to a NAP though", for example). And of course, I keep all that kind of discussion in-game, or at least in-thread (as said elsewhere, every game is unique, and these kind of discussions have no place outside the specific game).

Above all, in every game I've ever played (and that includes games with my RL friends), I've never trusted anyone any more than I had to (not having ever played, nor being interested in playing, a game where the rules state diplomacy is set in stone - how boring is that!?). If I get caught with my pants down and get spanked, well, that's just my own damn fault, isn't it?

Re: known backstabbers
 

I agree that such threads are not very helpful if people are actually named as they can often turn nasty very quickly.

I used to love NAPs and was glad the community had them. But the more I play I realise NAPs are quite restrictive and can lead to mid game paralysis as they lock down a lot of options. And unless nations are very unequal in power giving X turns notice before an attack not only gives the attacked player plenty of time to prepare but also to work on your other neighbours to equal the odds. A recipe for peaceful stagnation which often happens.

But they are so useful early on I (and lots of others) are not likely to give them up :) It is a shame more don't have sunset clauses. Most early on NAPs could expire after year three (turn 36 say) and still fulfill most of their purpose without causing this paralysis later. But I have never offered or been offered such a deal. And I suspect most people would be suspicious if they were offered such a deal. It hints at bad relations later ;) However if such deals were not unusual, but the norm, they might solve a lot of problems with the current never ending NAPs. People could get the early security they desire without being stuck with the long term concequences.

I know some people think diplomacy should always be ruthless (as opposed to just in the games where that is stated). And say betrayal is part of life and should be part of Dom 3. And so it is. But quite frankly if I want to deal constantly with lies, half truths and betrayals I'll go to work and dabble in office politics ;) Or simply turn on the news :p Lies and betrayal are part of life - and not the good part. Dom 3 is one of the things I do to get away from that. While the odd NAP betrayal isn't going to make me pack Dom 3 in, if I really felt I couldn't trust anything people said in the game I doubt I would bother playing much. And I suspect I would not be alone.

It takes a lot of time and skill (as well as luck) to beat another player unless there is a gulf in nation power. It takes a lot of time, energy and patience to construct an alliance and hold it together. While betrayals of agreements are cheap, quick and easy. It usually is not possible to be fully prepared for betrayal and still be able to do much else. IMO the game simply takes too long and requires too much effort for it to be decided by treachery more than once in a while.

So by chance or design we have a community that largely honours NAPs, but not completely. This is good as it keeps everyone on their toes. You trust NAPs but not absolutely. You still need a contingency plan and to leave something back to defend against betrayal. Which is quite a good outcome I think. And there are blenty of no diplomacy or 'ruthless' diplomacy games for those who tire of NAPs. Which again is good as at least everyone knows what they are getting.

As for Greenstone (which I am in) I have NAPs with both the named backstabbers :doh: But I am not sure that either have broken their other NAPs so I shall be honouring my agreements until someone shows some evidence that this is not the case.

Re: known backstabbers
 

It looks like there are no votes supporting that thread, so you can remove it if you want. I didn't do it to make happy myself only to be the only contributor :)

Re: known backstabbers
 

Thank you Annette for removing the two players named in the OP.
I had that thread close to hand actually as I knew it was linked in a post from the "Sheap's Multiplayer Tips" thread, which I always have bookmarked.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com//showthread.php?t=32050

Still reckon this above post should be made compulsory reading (or sticky'd) for anyone signing up to any MP games, so that everyone knows in advance what level of etiquette is expected of them in-game and out-of-game. As it's more-or-less an instant guide to a friendlier community IMO :)

Re: known backstabbers
 

Following on Calahan's idea somewhat, I'd still say Militarist, that something like a pledge (along the lines of Baalz's Good Player Pledge) could make your goal for this thread become something of a reality without creating bad feelings and labeling people. A Good Ally Pledge thread, or what have you, would be both positive and constructive for the community. Reaffirming the view that many of us hold in keeping our word in games with binding diplomacy and towards one another. It would not be a list, pledging would be voluntary, but it would at least provide new players with some some assistance (which I think was part of your goal) in knowing something about potential partners in a game.

Re: known backstabbers
 

The Baalz's Good Player Pledge and http://forum.shrapnelgames.com//showthread.php?t=32050 posted by Calahan are both useful, but still I don't think that it is proper to prohibit other players to exchange information. I wrote about obstruction.. In our case obstruction is not possible, just because people like pyg and many other wil be happy to be in backstabbing list, because they don't see anything wrong to be liested in it. And if the list wouldn't be popular, it would die out itself, but if people reported there regularly, it would mean it's useful.
And, even if it was not like I described (worst scenario some players threaten us with) and it became a thread of hate, I believe it's also not a problem. Just we had to rename it to holy wars and let people tell what they think about each other and moderate only trolling. And if we have such thread admins would have much more moral authority not to allow these things in other threads. Just take any thread they don't like and move it here.

I'm a newbie on this forum though and don't know all the stories. Maybe I miss something. Just I believe that any prohibition and appeals to admins to prohibit something is really a last resort. and I'm quite surprised that people who are not admins voted so energetically to close MY thread.

Re: known backstabbers
 

I'm trying to be a known backstabber but I keep reverting into bad honorable habits :sorry:.

:soap:
Personally, I think that players in these games (myself included) almost always err too much on the side of being honest and honorable in terms of in-game agreements; which, after all, it would be much more in-character to break! So if a backstabber list de-incentivizes that sort of thing, bollocks it. This should be completely distinct from actual cheating, of course. :rant:

:rulz:
But I'm opposed to good-player pledges for the same reason that I'm opposed to no-treachery games. The only way to police them is to report people for what is, I suppose, in the context of the game, cheating :tough:

And that's a pretty severe thing, so in ambiguous cases, which is what always comes up when you try to enforce in-game honor of agreements, what are you going to do? Better to leave the whole shebang alone in the first place. :banghead

In closing, I'd like to congratulate :censor:, :censor: and Septimus Severus as being the only three people who've had the balls to actually break the terms of an agreement in one of these games. Kudos! :first:

Re: known backstabbers
 

DrP, how dare you insult my honor! :rant: Naming me but not the other two above is selective defamation. :mean: Forcing me to have to post yet again here. Are there not two sides to every story?

But seriously, personally (and I can only speak for myself), I just consider every new game a clean slate and try not to carry baggage from other games into new games or let peoples opinions of others influence what I think of them. A onetime backstabber, shouldn't be branded as completely untrustworthy. Of course there's no way to police pledge's but seems to me a more positive twist. I think Baalz had more success with the new player pledge, than attempting to post a list of everyone who has ever not really tried to follow through to the end on a game they started in.

Re: known backstabbers
 

Yes policing some game restrictions is imposssible. If you use my favorite definition that with computers "impossible" means "we can do it but its probably more effort than its worth". Actually no-treachery games, and no-diplomacy games, can be policed by use of game logs, backups, master password, and the various DungeonMaster mods such as Watchers. BUT that would probably be more time and effort than any admin might want to put into a game. Particularly since it almost requires that the same person not play in that game.

Also, not to open old wounds, but I think this is part of the reason you wont see some people play in too many games. If their online login has one reputation they dont want associated with their game personae. People in recognized positions of authority or reputations for being friendly and helpful would find it hard to enter into a game. You have people expecting the same from you in the game. And you might not want to damage your online personae even though the idea of playing games is having a chance to be what you are not.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...631#post669631