Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

I've noticed that I've only used awake/sleeping rainbow mage (Usually humans, sometimes master lich/ ghost king) and never SCs. I value the magic diversity, crafting flexibility, summoning options and the immense gem income from site searchs from a rainbow much too highly to ever use anything but a rainbow. Spells like contact naiad, stream from hades, ether lord, draconians, troll court...etc are just amazing mid-late game for good diversification.

It seems that most SC require either some items or Dom 9-10 to help out (with exception to Gorgon SC maybe), and I can't seem to shell out the points to do that. It seems to be a waste to dump so much points into a SC who gets weaker in enemy dom, whereas a rainbow can give you a huge exponential boost to gem income and summon multiple thug/SC chasis later on in addition to mad crafting and summoning. I have a checklist of summons and artifacts I HAVE to have to sleep at night (dwarf hammer, boots of quickness, boots of flight...etc).

Of course I've never used SC pretenders before, and as I understand it, it is really for is early game expansion and early-mid province defense? Any players who use SC pretender a lot can enlighten me why anyone would use SC over rainbow generally? (I can see SC for certain nations needing a boost to early expansion or heavy bless, but not general usage)

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

Cyclops is the pretender that comes to mind which can SC early and doesn't need high dominion.

Preference is based on the nation I'm playing and what it needs. Some nations need rainbows. Some need SCs. Some need a bless chassis. Some need a focused forger. Some just need something cheap so they can take great scales. Some need a compromise between two of the above. Some can afford to do something else entirely (Lord of the Gates comes to mind).

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

You dont list bless as a separate option? Is that supposed to be in Other?

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

Ah I assumed a sleeping/imprisoned SC or rainbow includes blessing. Something like:

Awake SC : Early expansion / maybe light blessing / minor diversify magic
Sleepy SC : Heavy blessing / minor diversify magic
Awake Rainbow : Early site search / research / light blessing / crafting
Sleepy Rainbow : Site search / Hv blessing / crafting

I meant the choice to be all inclusive of anything using the above 4 pretender choice, Others would be immobile pretender or anything else.

Indeed I find that even for bless nations (EA Mictlan) I use rainbow pretender to throw them on. I just find that most guide I read uses a SC pretender with 2-4 paths focus (I've maybe read one or two guide which uses a heavy rainbow pretender), whereas I usually go 4-7 paths for every nation.

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

In SP I would be very hard-pressed to take an SC pretender. You're right, usually the magic diversity and gem income are much better. And even on impossible difficulty, it's quite possible for most nations to compete effectively with the AI without an awake SC. In my opinion those are more useful for competitive MP games, where provinces are at a minimum and rush deterrent may be more valuable than long term diversity and power, especially if that SC allows you to make a quick land grab on an opponent's territory.

Personally though I dislike awake SCs for much the same reasons you do, and I would never take one unless with a nation that I just didn't feel needed anything else, or was so weak early game that I had no other choice (i.e. the alugra mod in SP, which I've finally given up on trying to make work without one).

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

Consider an S6 Dom 8 Oracle with O3P3G3L3M3 and your choice of H3 or C3. That's neither a rainbow or an SC, and its the extreme end of a perfectly good pretender archetype. (basically pure scales with good dominion and enough astral to matter later).

Consider an S9F9W9 Dom 7 Oracle w/ T2S3H3D3L3Dr2. Not unreasonable for a nation like LA Mictlan who wants a big bless, and can control its dominion spread by choosing if and when to blood sacrifice (so it only really suffers the effects of its dominion in and around its capital). Less extreme versions of that can certainly be imagined. Its also not an SC or a rainbow.

I'm not sure how you would classify a Forge Lord. I mean, he's not really a rainbow, but you'll probably drop 3-4 paths on him. He can SC, but you're not going to use him as one. He's going to sit in a lab and forge stuff.

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

Those would be "Others", while I might want to test them, I'm too addicted to rainbow ...

Maybe once I play MP more I'll have a better appreciation of SC

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

With regards to bless pretenders: If at all possible to take an SCable pretender as your bless nation, it is a good idea. Most heavy blesses are not that great for late game spellcasting, and aside from some forging and big globals and such, there is not much that a non-SC pretender there can offer you. Whereas, if you take an SC pretender, it gives you a powerful unit that can be useful and tough to kill whatever you're using it for in the late game, which can be very useful. Whether as a battlefield spellcaster or a frontline combatant. And if you're going strong enough of a bless to be imprisoned, your pretender should hopefully not have to do a whole lot of diversifying or you are probably in trouble.

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

I think I can see this, a SC pretender on Turn 12 when EA Mictlan or Niflehiem is breathing on me be the difference between win or defeat in MP.

For the non-SC pretender, one huge bonus I just couldn't get over is the gem income from site search. Even when using awake rainbow vs sleepy rainbow I tend to amass a lot more misc. gems, which fuels my summon / forging mid-game in a big way. Its like a free 90% akashic record (minus holy and whatever path you skipped) every other turn starting on Turn 1. awake rainbow can have 8-9 sites for you inside of a year by T1 minimum, or if you Really need certain spells to do early research boost.

assuming you get 8 sites and each generate 1 gem to be conservative in Yr1. that can give you a bonus 96 gems from T12-T24, not counting those you get in T1-T12. The income over say 4 years snowballs like crazy just from your Y1 site find alone. Granted at some point your pretender stays home to craft and summon things only it can do, but those 1yr+ of free acashic record is huge. Even when it's home it tend to have a backlog of key summons / craft to occupy it until the end of days.

That doesn't even include the times when I found rare sites that give me -20% conj / Thau / free castles / other amazing bonuses that changed the game for me.

I won't even go into the crafting goodness they do for me, as they are sometimes my sole crafter of critical gear before it is also the one to summon others to do it for her (eg. dwarf hammer until i summon troll, boots of flight.... which I usually can't get anyone else to craft for me until very late in the game with fairy queen, cross-path forge like vine bracelet / crystal coin.etc)

Trading all that for a single SC which I can summon up multiple lesser versions of late game just pains me :sick: But I can see this in MP where a SC early game helps deter and expand.

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

Hhhhmmmm, high dominion on a Cyclops is almost mandatory if you want him to be any use as an early SC (first year). If you try taking Indy's solo with a naked Cyclops without Awe then you'll almost instantly get a dead Cyclops. Even with a Const 0 shield+sword it's no certainty

But then I know you know this already Squirrelloid, which makes your comment seem even weirder to me :confused::shock::confused::)

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

I actually tried a wyrm SC out when I first played. It got creamed pretty hard. Now that I know the combat mechanics better I guess awe is almost mandatory on a early SC? Thats a lot of points sunk into a SC in exchange for summon / forge / site finds >.<

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

A wyrm needs awe, yes. It's also not a bad idea to give it a splash of magic to make it useful a bit longer, but if you take one with no magic it's certainly not very painful to lose it.

Also just to be clear, when I said "SC pretenders are more useful..." I didn't mean period, I meant comparatively to other times you'd use an SC pretender ;) I have personally only once ever taken a (dormant bless) SC pretender in an MP game (and I lost because I was playing TNN and had no magic diversity when late game rolled around, heh. On the other hand, that SC pretender is basically the entire reason I survived the early game against Niefelheim). Most of my MP pretenders are... blessers and rainbows :P I honestly hate SC pretenders that do not have healing or immortality, because without one of those I feel they are marginalized too easily.

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

I must agree! I was feeling like I overlooked something in my analysis since 90% of the game thread, guides, brainstorm all use SC chasis. Wyrm, clops, gorgon, various titan chasis ...etc. I guess it is that important for MP games.

It would be ironic to site find all my lands then get steamrolled by a Hv bless SC pretender nation. I suppose if they know your going rainbow then your land must have lots of juicy revealed sites, coupled with the fact you have no early SC would make you mighty tempting...

I think I may have to go SC in my MP games now that I analyze it abit more...

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

as others have said, pretender choices are a lot more complex than what you've done in this poll. moreover, you can't really set the specific nations aside, as the nation you play plays a major roll in your pretender selection. for example, nations with horrible early expansion such as EA Agartha, UW nations(barring MA Oceania), etc just scream for an awake SC pretender to allow them to set off the ground. others like Mictlan, Lanka, etc scream for a bless strategy due to their awesome sacreds but otherwise very unimpressive national armies. others like Sauromatia, Vanheim(MA+Midgard less for EA), etc have awesome national armies to expand with, thus can greatly benefit from having strong scales or perhaps the magic diversity of a Rainbow. there is also the high Astral pretender for late game, mainly the Oracle, which can be used both in a bless(S9+?) or in a high scales strategy.

also, among SCs, there are the short term type(such as the Wyrm and that under water Octopus) who have terrible item slots, hence lose a lot of their effectiveness in mid-late game. others like the Cyclops, GK, PoD, etc have all the normal slots so they can function as mid-late game SCs with good items on them. also, some bless pretenders such as a F9+? imprisoned Moloch(for Mictlan and other nations that benefit greatly from F9 bless) are mainly a bless chassis but once awake they too can function as mid-late game SCs with items.

there are others of course, such as a scale based Titan pretender, gem generating pretender(Great Enchantress, Mother of Rivers, Lord of Rebirth, etc), the Forge Lord, etc.

thus there can never really be a favorite pretender, as it greatly depends on which nation you play, also the game settings, other players, etc can and should factor into yout pretender selection.

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

E9 gives him enough protection he can expand against a lot of things. I wouldn't go running into any HC...

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

I do have a fav, rainbow chasis! Even for EA Mictlan or other bless nation I went with rainbow chasis (F9?4?4?3).

I know what your saying and I could agree that it IS nation specific, but some players tend to have a prefered chasis where they prefer, they may use something else as it synergize better with the specific nation, but they probably have a preference.

It sounds like your preference is no preference and strictly flexible, unlike me who can't deviate from a rainbow under any circumstances... Maybe MP will cure me of that though.

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

Protection can be 20 or 30, doesn't matter that much as with just average defence and no Awe to prevent the attacks, the RNG will ensure enough hits get through to ruin your day. It's not all about actually losing the Cyclops, as it only takes one or two injuries for it to be sidelined.

IIRC, someone ran tests a while back with protection 40, and those showed that the protection mechanics are a bit bugged at the higher levels (as in hits get through when they shouldn't). This may have been fixed in recent patches, but I doubt it somehow.

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

Wyrm, Moloch, Prince of Death, Cyclops, Ghost King, Colossal Fetish, Gaiea, Carrion Dragon, Immortal Oracle, Both Imperial Generals, Both Bulls, Lord of Winter, Virtue, Kraken, varior Rlyeh's, can all be used as SC's. Lord of Desert Plague, the destroyer.

Some others you've left out:

Forge Lord, Immortal Glyph, Blood Fountain, Divine Emperor (CBM only), Oracle, ...

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

SP is all about having infinite options to play with, therefore Rainbow. You can always wish for SC pretenders later on ;)

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

I know protection interacts weirdly with damage, because the RNG is bugged. But try it before you say it doesn't work.

An E9 cyclops has 29 protection. He'll also average more than 100hp with dominion bonus. With no gear he can handle non-archer infantry. Figure you expand turn 2, move home turn 3, and that gives you time to forge a weapon and a shield to equip him for expanding again on turn 4 and onwards. Assuming you don't run into something egregious like someone with a skull talisman, you'll expand perfectly fine.

I gained 1 affliction (-4 str, oh noes) in year 1, and that was just random bad luck. I expanded on turns 2, 4-11. I used an enchanted shield and sword because I grabbed an astral power at random. I made sure to target provinces that were only standard infantry with or without archers OR tribal groups. (No barbarians, no heavy cavalry, light cavalry would probably be ok). Actually, the parry 7 on enchanted shield is pretty respectable, not sure how much of a difference that made against archers.

Once you get Conj3, you're also net-neutral on fatigue after SEP, which makes you immune to critical hits. You should research it sometime in year 1.

I mean, would you rather have awe? Sure. But the Cyclops *can* go without.

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

I have tested a Cyclops without Awe in the past, and again just now to reacquaint myself with it. And while they can solo Indy's without Awe, I found it made expansion a very nervous affair. As with red numbers popping up almost every round of battle, I was left constantly right-clicking during the replays to check whether that last hit was the one that left the permanent mark. And not all nations have an early shield forging option to help out.

Like many things in Dominions, I feel it falls under the category of 'it can be done, but are the odds really in your favour enough to risk it'. Probably ranks the same as attacking blind on turn 1 in my books. Once or twice when I tested just now I had an injured Cyclops after his first battle because the border intel was pretty light on the truth with regards the actual number of troops in the province. And it seems it didn't take much numbers wise to swing the odds between a win and a risk.

Some nations could pull it off easier than others for sure, such as those with national healers. So you are right that E9 does give that extra bit of security without Awe, but I still think Awe is the better option with or without the E9, even if it costs a scale or two. Especially for newer players who are still learning the different types of Indy's that are in the game.

Guess a lot depends on how lucky you feel your gambling arm is on any given day. I know mine is jinxed though, so I tend to side more with the sure odds stuff :)

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

I favor the Immortal Thug chassis. They can't truly be considered SCs since most are too weak to defeat an army on their own, but they can be very powerful when paired with some meat shields.

The Phoenix has paths that are too expensive to be rainbow (60), but this Phoenix build is great for a nation that starts slow:

Phoenix (Body 608, 15 hits)
Magic: Fire 6 Air 3 Astral 7
Dominion 6
Scales: Order 3 Sloth 3 Heat 3 Misfortune 2
Awake

Pretty high precision, deadly fire magic (Astral Fires, Falling Fires, very strong Hydrophobia, etc.) can craft air boosters once you get rings, can cast Wish late game. Low income is the basic problem I had with this particular build, but she's very effective for a long time.

The Master Lich chassis is usually done as a partial rainbow due to his cost--taking him awake allows him to site search early like a rainbow, but as the game progresses he becomes incredibly deadly in combat even with his extremely low hp.

The Lich (40-path) is an excellent combatant even early in the game given a tiny bit of alteration magic.

I haven't used VQ since Dom2.

Immortal pretenders don't really fit into the SC category or into the rainbow category (with the exception of the Master Lich), so I would be in the other column.

The big SCs (titans and similar) are very powerful combatants, but once the game progresses, you can't use them for their original purpose as well because once a player sees you fighting with your SC, they'll use several tactics to put the SC pretender out of commission (relegated to lab duty) or kill them indirectly.

1. Stacked Horror Marks
2. BBOB, Vision's Foe especially if you don't have national healers.

I find that for that reason I tend not to pick titans.

I would say that my list goes:

1. Awake Immortal Thug
2. Awake Rainbow
3. Dormant/Sleeping bless or excellent scales

Any time an SC pretender is called for in a strategy, it is usually because you need something to attack or defend with. Since I'd rather be able to throw my pretender at anything I want and not have to worry about him dying, I love Immortals. The CBM phoenix explodes with Phoenix Pyre, so it can still kill indies even without any spell research.

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

Totally nation and map-dependent. Bigger maps usually mean less need of an SC.

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

Obviously heavily map dependant, and nation dependant, but I said other. High dominion and really good scales at the cost of actual pretender capability is often fun, though with imprisonment you can get a rainbow on top of that, or at least a decent bless.

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

You've just answered your own question. You take a SC when you feel the nation/map requires one for adequate defense.

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

Honestly I think part of the problem is a bit of a terminology confusion. SC or Rainbow to most players refers to the purpose of the pretender, not to its chassis specifically. At the very minnimum, the general purposes would be rainbow, SC, bless or scales, and they often mix it up. A rainbow with low paths can have decent scales, a minor bless build like E9 N4 can be given extra paths and function as a sleeping rainbow, a pathless wyrm with dom 10 can have incredibly good scales, the lich and ghost king chassis can be used as SCs with extra magic.

To go back to my first point, for example, an E9 N9 bless build for a giant nation usually takes medium dom, and therefore can get away with using a mage chassis like the CBM master druid. It's also unlikely to be able to afford extra paths. No one would call that pretender a Rainbow.

Honestly it's shortsighted to classify some pretenders as "other" or niche builds. The scales oracle with high astral is actually very common, as are double 9 bless builds. Sometimes you'll even take an awake titan chassis and use it as a researcher and never as an SC, like the Lord of the Gates for his freespawn or the Lord of Plenty for his gem income.



So I guess my point is to look not at the chassis as determining "rainbow" or "SC" but instead look at the end purpose.

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

I tend to got with awake rainbow to maximize gem income. However last large game I played with CBM 1.5 EA Ulm and POD

Build: Sleeping Prince of Darknes
Dom:7 - Ord:3 - Pro:1 - Cold:3 - Grwth:1 - Misf:1 - Magc:1
S4 - D4 - A3

This guy got me through Caelums and Tirnaogs earlygame hostitlities. Pretender is designed to cover lategame magic as well as early fights against giants. Huge bonus is the ability to fly, which gives you freedom to pick provinces before others.

Not the most common build but works as a SC, Forger, Wisher (empovermeent needed) summoner and highly mobile battle wizard.

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

Lihaasa: to be fair, Caelum's aggression was predicated on TNN's aggression not sucking. I never came in hard.

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

Still - without flying shock resistant SC you would have come at me? I know I would have. I just gave an example of not that common pretender build, which happened to work fairly well. In the end we ended up as allies.

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

I would have considered pressing the attack more seriously. As it was, I was brainstorming ways of dealing with your PoD and even acquired items and placed mages to do so. Ultimately my decision not to press you was based on wanting more forces elsewhere, and then it just became convenient to have an ally sitting there once we reached an understanding.

Re: Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC
 

Yeah I've since seen where a good SC in a MP game is good early deterrence and expansion. can still get a few paths on it.

I'm too much in love with awake rainbow though, the massive gem income! I've run into bonus casting sites fairly often too ... 60% blood cost reduction was sickening...