Apotheosis [Running]
 

Hi! This is a game for new or intermediate players.

Play by email on llamaserver.net (Be sure to be nice to llamabeast for his work on the server :))

Middle Age
Map: Cradle of Dominions
24h quickhost (Will probably be increased to 48 later in the game)
Max 10 players
Mods: CBM 1.6, Endgame Diversity
Settings: Hall of fame 15, Graphs on
Victory condition: Control the majority of the capitals (Each capital will have a victory point)

Eriu - Kadelake
Oceania - Dectilon
Shinuyama - don_Pablo
C'tis - Nauquan
Arcoscephale - 13lackGu4rd
Jötunheim - Amadamus
Pythium - Numahr
T'ien Ch'i - Greyjoy
R'lyeh - Finalgenesis
Abysia - Verjigorm
Marignon - Greyjoy's friend

Re: Apotheosis (vanilla game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

I'm awful, but I'm in. I'd like to play Oceania if that's alright.

Re: Apotheosis (vanilla game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

Sign me as Shinuyama, please :)

Re: Apotheosis (vanilla game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

I'm game. C'tis please

Re: Apotheosis (vanilla game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

I'll try Arco

Re: Apotheosis (vanilla game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

I'll take Ermor please

Re: Apotheosis (vanilla game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

Having said that, is there any possibility of considering CBM? it just seems that the majority of the MP games are played with it and well, it would be nice to start learning the CBM game seeing as eventually it will be all we will use.

Up for debate?

+ can we have renaming on?

Re: Apotheosis (vanilla game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

CBM also makes a lot more pretender choices viable, and helps balance the nations. I highly recommend it.

Re: Apotheosis (vanilla game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

I would like to participate, with Pythium.
I also support using CBM.

Re: Apotheosis (vanilla game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

I'm intermediate-ish, and see some familiar faces anyway. ...Also, somebody's WILLINGLY playing MA Oceania. My god. You poor, benighted soul.

I'll take T'ien Ch'i. CBM's good, but I'm fine with vanilla too.

Re: Apotheosis (vanilla game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

100% noob, R'yleth if that's okay. Also vote for CBM, but fine with clamming.

Re: Apotheosis (vanilla game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

I've never used CBM and there are some things I don't quite like with it. But I'm ok with CBM if everyone else wants to use it :)
If that's the case, what do you say about adding the Endgame Diversity mod as well?

Amadamus: Yes, renaming will be on. I wouldn't be able to play without it :)

Re: Apotheosis (vanilla game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

There are already another underwater nation so it's going to be quite crowded on Cradle of Dominions. There are about 20 water provinces (I don't remember the exact number). How do you and Dectilon feel about having two underwater nations?

I'm playing Eriu. Poor, benighted Dectilon isn't alone in playing a nation from the bottom of the barrel :D

Re: Apotheosis (vanilla game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

yes, forgot to mention it, CBM please ;) and yeah, End Game Diversity Mod is also good, it's the next new popular mod which will probably be included in the next CBM patch or so, it just needs more play testing right now, and we're perfect for that :D

Re: Apotheosis (vanilla game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

Hey, don't knock MA oceania too hard! Squirrelloid won water total war with them, which was an all water nations game. I think that was with clams though :P

Re: Apotheosis (vanilla game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

End game Summons sounds a winner also!

Thanks Kadelake!

Re: Apotheosis (vanilla game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

I picked R'yleth as I absolutely love the void gate :D I'd be happy to try Bandar Log though should Dectilon prefer.

A vote for end game diversity mod also!

Re: Apotheosis (vanilla game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

actually, 2 UW nations is preferred to 1 Imho. 1 is just asking for trouble as they can take all the seas almost uncontested, than turtle almost indefinitely(especially true in vanilla, much less in CBM).

and yeah, MA R'lyeh is perhaps the best R'lyeh. Void Gate without the insanity and the tons of upkeep choking freespawns. being able to actually recruit those nice Illithids and use them in battle instead of relying on endless hordes of chaff. no need for you to switch to Bandar Log Imho, you'll be fine with R'lyeh and Oceania should give you a run for your money in the UW war.

Re: Apotheosis (vanilla game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

And keep us UW nations out of your hair for awhile :D

Re: Apotheosis (vanilla game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

[quote=13lackGu4rd;749007]actually, 2 UW nations is preferred to 1 Imho. 1 is just asking for trouble as they can take all the seas almost uncontested, than turtle almost indefinitely(especially true in vanilla, much less in CBM).
QUOTE]

Very true!

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

May I have the last spot as Ashdod?

I vote for CBM.

I'm lukewarm (barely No) on EGD.

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

I'd prefer with Endgame Diversity but without CBM

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

Call me a spoil sport Verjigorm, but i vote for a ban on Ashdod. It really just is the most overpowered of all the nations.

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

Such may be the case in other eras, but in MA? I don't think so... Let us consult the Great Oracle who sayeth:

Mid(68.000000)

MA Pythium : 9.00
MA Shinuyama : 6.00
MA Pangaea : 5.50
MA R'lyeh : 4.50
MA Abysia : 4.50
MA Jotunheim : 4.00
MA Mictlan : 4.00
MA Ulm : 3.33
MA Ermor : 3.00
MA Caelum : 3.00
MA Marignon : 2.00
MA Oceania : 2.00
MA C'tis : 2.00
MA Vanheim : 2.00
Nehekara : 1.50
MA Machaka : 1.33
MA Man : 1.33
MA Ulm Reborn : 1.00
MA Arcoscephale : 1.00
MA Arga Dis : 1.00
MA Ashdod : 1.00
MA Atlantis : 1.00
Itza : 1.00
MA Bandar Log : 1.00
MA Nehekhara : 1.00
MA T'ien Ch'i : 0.50
MA Agartha : 0.50

It appears that your selection, Ermor, has a much higher win rate than Ashdod, and Pythium seems the least balanced. I hold the opinion that Pythium is still the most powerful MA nation, but I would never request that someone relinquish their selection of it. ;)

According to the chart for other eras, only Hinnom has a high win rate, and even that is eclipsed by Sauromatia. Perhaps you are simply intimidated because we're bigger than you? Hwahwahwahwahwa!

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

One of my friends who just got the game wants to play as Marignon, but it's taking a bit for his forum account to get confirmed.

I'd like to reserve a spot for him.

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

How can you reserve a spot for someone who is not yet playing when they are all taken? Another option would be to either increase the maximum number of players or change maps and do the same. Since there was no problem getting 10 people, we could quite easily change maps and do 12-14 people...

I would love to play on my map, the Abstract Sky Tower. It's not as pretty as the cradle, but I think it's a pretty fair map, and quite easily adjustable to a Capitol VPs Map.

See here:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45704

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

Oh. I can't count. Thought there was still a spot.

Edited to add: Whichever people feel like. There'll be another game sometime soon regardless.

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

Ah yes skewed results Verjigorm... the reason Ashdod doesnt feature on those wins there is becasue the general deal is that Ashdod is banned - can't win if it doesn't play.

I think you will find that the general consensus is Ashdod is a game wrecker if played by anyone with a little competence.

Therefore, i move the motion that Ashdod is ommitted from the picks.

And I would rather we stick to the original 10 players. Its a nice map and 10 players is a good number for it.

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

By the way, on Pythium being the least balanced, please know that I have only started 1 MP game that is not completed yet. So you can consider that my lack of experience makes it somehow for Pythium's natural strenghths.

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

I think we should let Grayjoys friend join and keep the map. It should work for 11 players as well, especially with two of players underwater.

I'm reluctant to ban any nations. Ashdod is one of the best nation (certainly better then the number of wins in hall of fame make it look like) but there are several other really good nations as well. The game just isn't completely balanced. It's my opinion that it's mostly chance that determines which player turns out to have the best conditions. A lucky starting position and lucky site searching might tip the scale more then the nations advantage.

I guess one of the reasons that Ashdod haven't got more registered wins are because of their fearsome reputation. If people know Ashdod are really strong, they might be more inclined to gang up on them.

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

oh btw, is diplomacy in this game binding (agreements) or Machiavellian?

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

Ok, no probs - was worth a go! :)

Just to be a final pain in the bum Kadelake, can i swap to Jotunheim please? - I can see that shuttling hoards of undead around gets old quick with Ermor...

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

But with MA, at least you can shuttle them around at 3 mapmove....

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

Well Ama, for reference from an opponent's pov I'd rather you don't have the hordes of undead to shuttle with in the first place.

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

Perhaps - but i'm up to summer year 3 in a trial run and the turns are already taking ages mearly moving bones to the front lines.

As much as i love the idea of Ermor, they are just too much work!

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

Amadamus changed to Jötunheim.
I played Utgård in my first MP game and they where really fun. Be warned though, if you try to optimize blood hunting it will be a lot of work ;)

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

Game created, you can now send in your pretenders :)
Llamaserver FAQ

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Recruiting]
 

I noticed your post here as well.

Hmm, I'll try to give my view on diplomacy. I've never thought much about this before, just done what comes naturally :)

You are free to perform diplomacy over PM or any other way.
You are free to make "backroom deals", spread information and plot with the other players:
"Look how big player X is! Plus he is a really good player and plays nation Y!! We should team up against him before it's too late!!! Let's divide his provinces between us :D"
Trades are binding, you can't agree to a trade and then not deliver your part. (It would actually be kind of stupid not to keep your deal. Who would like to trade with you if they know your not trustworthy?)

About NAPs I'm not sure. I've played three MP games and I don't think I've ever seen anyone violate a NAP. They seem to be respected generally. What do people think? Maybe it would be easier for new players if NAPs where binding?

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Send in your pretenders]
 

Well. I, personally, will almost never violate the x-turns warning of a formalized NAP. And yes, Pantokrator help you if you violate trade agreements. But it's probably a good idea to hedge against the former.

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Send in your pretenders]
 

Sounds good, so basically

agreements made in good faith (trade, NAP...etc), no restrictions otherwise. Simple, I like it.

Edit: just saw Grey's post, the reason why I nitpick on this point is whether I need to divert resource to possible betrayal. E.g. If NAPs are binding I can leave border more or less undefended, also less dangerous to extend yourself in other wars, as otherwise people would be tempted to backstab you when you are fully commited on someone.

Thanks though I got a much better feel on diplo now, basically nothing is binding but good faith is expected.

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Send in your pretenders]
 

The problem with "in good faith" (and this is why I always stay out of discussions involving pathetic attempts to make people make good on promises made, NAPs, etc...) with the obvious exception of binding trades is this...

Once it is set than no arrangement can be broken, it opens the door to the use of treaty as a weapon. Since you cannot attack me, if I can grab a crucial choke point or a certain land before you (or even take provinces from you that were conquered by barbarians, etc.), I can use the treaty as a weapon against you.

Once treaties of this nature come into play the "in good faith" clause goes into effect with all of its subjective glory....

Player 1: You broke our NAP!!! Ummm!!! I'm telling mommy!!

Player 2: Well, you took my High Temple of the Magii when it fell to Barbarians!

Player 1: So? Our NAP didn't say anything about "reserving provinces"....


Blah, Blah, Blah...
In such situations, both players will feel that they are in the right and both will be able to draw supporters. Yes, the NAP was technically broken, but Player 1 was definitely using it an a douchebag-esque manner, so one could see arguments for the "in good faith" side as well...

If you aren't prepared to deal with discussions of a truly political nature (e.g. in which people might change their mind), you aren't prepared to play Dominions in MP.

That aside, once someone starts frequently breaking treaties based solely on fancy, people will eventually get the idea that the best thing to do is to make the treaty and then kill them as soon as an advantage appears. Turnabout is, of course, fair play. NAPs can be very useful if you abide by the arrangement and don't push it by playing nasty with the letter of the law, but once you go douchebag on either side of the scale like using an NAP to strong arm, stifle expansion, or snag provinces or on the other hand breaking treaties without appropriate notice as defined by said treaty, you end up with a monkey sh__ fight...

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Send in your pretenders]
 

hence the good-faith but non-binding claus. E.g. I wouldn't call someone pulling douche-bag move using the letter of the agreement as good faith and would happily backstab them. Being polite to the rude is not being polite, it's just being weak, same applies to excercising good faith to a Machevelli. (I'm not bashing on Machy style, as I do condone many of its value and tactics!)

I tend to otherwise treat good faith with good faith though (I find it hard to backstab someone who has been a good ally, but alas, all good things must end but I think I'd follow the declaration clause in a NAP rather then surprise attack someone who allied in good faith), a weakness I'm sure in some cases but also an advantage in many others.

Maybe there's an evil machy in me somewhere I just haven't discovered yet :D

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Send in your pretenders]
 

There are some trouble with the llamaserver. It seems like we might have to wait a few days to start the game.

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Send in your pretenders]
 

Do I have to re-upload?

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Send in your pretenders]
 

Thanks for the swap Kadelake.

Could someone please post when its cool to upload?

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Send in your pretenders]
 

The cradle map seems to be uploaded to the server, I think the game can be (re)made now.

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Send in your pretenders]
 

There isn't still room in this, is there?

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Send in your pretenders]
 

the game itself isn't up yet (Since the wipe on Friday), the map is though, so if I'm getting this right Kade can [re]create the game now when he gets on.

Re: Apotheosis (CBM game for newish players) [Send in your pretenders]
 

SplendidTuesday: I'm afraid the game is full :(
What do the rest think? Should we allow another player or will it be too crowded on Cradle of Dominions?

Game is up again! :)
It seems like most the problems with the servers have been fixed. I've re-created the game as Apotheosis3. You will have to re-upload your pretenders.

Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

By the way, what happened to Greyjoys friend? I haven't seen him post here.