Traitors! Team Game! 1 Captain, 1 Player needed!
 

Teams so far:

Septimius' Seditionists

Wrana's Raiders

Each team captain will have three subordinants. However, unbeknownst to him - one of them is a mole, actually working for another team!

We will use the Countdown method for bidding for teams. Ie., whoever agrees to use the LEAST points during pretender design will win the nation.

Starting minimum bids will be posted here, if we can get interest in a game.

However, here's the twist. Each captain will be given 1 pt.
For every 40 points that he remains unspent on his pretender design, he will be given 1 additional point.

He will then bid these treachery points on any non-captain player.

Each player's *actual* loyalty will then be determined. Whoever bids highest on a player secretly earns the loyalty of that player. That player wins or loses with his new team.

However, no team may have less than 3 or more than 5 players.

This will be a CBM game, except that gem generators will be used.
Balance mods for Yomi, Agartha, and Abysia will also be used.

Note: Anyone signing up should realize that setup on this game will take some time. Captains must be experienced, and are encouraged to solicit people for their teams.

Captains will have the privilege of bidding ONLY against other captains. This means a captains bid will superceed any other bid (even larger) except other captains.

Minimum bid increments will be 10pts.

Unbalancing sites will be removed. Ie., no construction bonus sites etc. I will admin the game, I will not play unless it becomes necessary for the game to start.

Info:

Map: Large, Suggest: Legendary Ordeals 2 Map
Mods: CBM 1.6, Balance, BSD
Players: 4 captains, 12 team members.
Rename: Yes
HOF: 15
RollBacks: No, unless physically required. (game crash)
Server: Llamaserver, PBM
Turns: 24 for first 10, +8 hrs/10 thereafter
Settings :EA (although I am not opposed to Single Age mod).
Victory: 9 Capitols.
Delays: Liberal, with post to forum.

Starting minimum bids:
Sauromatia: 45
Caelum: 25
Niefelheim: 35
Fomoria: 30
Lanka: 20
Mictlan: 25
C'tis: 15
Helheim: 15
Hinnom: 45
Kailasa: 10
T'ien Ch'i: 12
Vanheim: 12
Ulm: 12
Marverni: 10
Pangaea: 8
R'lyeh: 5
Argatha: 10
Arcoscephale: 5
Yomi: 10
Oceania: 0
Ermor: 0
Abysia: 0
Tir na n'Og: 0
Atlantis: 0

Wrana................. Arco +11 Ulm +3 (Lanka+0)
iamofage
Pelthin...............Ermor +20
Ragnars Wolves:.......Arco +1
Zeg:..................TC +0
mockingbird...........Ctis +0
Nikelaous.............Pan +0
Marmaduke.............
Alium.................Caelum +0

Re: Traitors! Team Game!
 

Sounds like an interesting variant.
Good luck with it.

Re: Traitors! Team Game!
 

I will play

Re: Traitors! Team Game!
 

Traitors! Interesting, who was it that had brought up the idea a while back, Belac? Nice to see it being implemented. Though theoretically any player in a team game could sell out his friends, at least he now has an incentive to do so (I guess it is winning with the other team). Intrigue and espionage. ;) Aside from providing info, the mole would otherwise have to take no action that could be deemed harmful to his team lest he be suspected/discovered and attacked by his host team, I assume, until the time is right. I suppose if a captain were willing to sacrifice a huge number of points on pretender design, this captain could buy the loyalty of at least one mole on each team giving them intel on the strategies/moves of all opposing teams. And buying 4 allied nations as well.

Re: Traitors! Team Game!
 

Theoretically, yes. In practise, not so easily.

Each team will have a maximum of five players. So *if* no one subverts a member of his team, the captain will be limited to 2 moles.

Re: Traitors! Team Game!
 

"chrispedersen has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space."

Re: Traitors! Team Game!
 

Sounds exciting! If there's a spot I would to join as well

Re: Traitors! Team Game!
 

I will Play

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 4/16
 

Chrispedersen has cleared some space -sorry about that militarist!

Re: Traitors! Team Game!
 

bump

Re: Traitors! Team Game!
 

I'm Game sounds like fun. :)

Re: Traitors! Team Game!
 

I will play

Re: Traitors! Team Game!
 

start making bids for nations =)

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

Edit: Deleted

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

I am going to do a little research and then submit my bid. :)

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

So do we send PM's to you Chris with a bid, or is it a public declaration?

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

Interesting idea. Do I understand correctly that teams are formed in terms of players and only after that nations are assigned? Or?
Also, could you point at the balance mods for Yomi, Agartha, Abyssia? I don't know, but I would try to add to EA Agartha underwater recruitment some kind of mage, otherwise all their underwater castles look kind of useless... :(

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

Has a map or starting locations been decided on yet?

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

Sept: Map will depend on # of players. Not Decided yet.
Wrana: I was expecting captains to form teams. Captains would get first bid on nations. Then everyone else would bid on nations.

Preliminary versions of the Balance mods were in the Balance game threads (either game or mod). They can also be downloaded from llamaserver. Agartha is quite unique. Yomi needs to be toned down slightly. I like the idea of the recruitable water mage. I may add it. I will try to post final versions of the mods this weekend.

Peltin: Bids are made publicly. Others may overbid you. Minimum bids are posted.

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

I will go with Tien Chi at the minimum bid of 12 points (and not as a captain of course).

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

I chose Arco 6 points

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

Hm. For now:
Arcoscephales 15, Ulm 15.
Lanka default 20.
I may think up something else (like my favourite Helheim), but these are my bids for now.
I hope I wouldn't have to be a captain, but may do it if more experienced players are lacking. Septimius? ;)

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

Wrana, I have you in for ulm at 15 (3 more than the minimum). You will switch over to Lanka at +0 (20) if someone out bids you on Ulm.

Your Arco bid is not 10 more than Ragnars. He beat you by seconds =).

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

I guess I will bid Ermor: 20

I know it is high, but I want to see how this plays out. :)

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

You didn't say that the minimum to outbid was to bid 10 more. :p OK, you may consider it to be exactly 10 more for now. :D

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

Wrana, I think your probably near the same experience level as me. I may have more team game experience, but you probably have more MP experience. I am sure you can handle it though. :) But if I am needed to join or captain a team I am available, don't know for how long though.

Being captain is not all that scary as it seems, it is really just an administrative label. You can make it as hard or as easy as you want, depending upon your play philosophy and management style. A team can be as democratic or as centralized as desired. Can be easy going or dead serious. Experience is desirable for a captain of course, but so is free time, energy level, motivation, communication skills, etc.

When players (or captains) choose their teammates it can help to eliminate some internal disagreements, but there is also something to be said for getting to know and working with players you've never played cooperatively with before. It forges new relationships. You don't really know a player till you've played on the same team with them.

Since chris hasn't set up pre-made teams (with names, identities and so forth), I am guessing he is letting players and potential captains organize themselves into teams.

Questions for Chris:

Can a captain bid his points (or more points) in an attempt to ensure the loyalty of his own team members? "Counter Traitorism" :D

Can traitors at some point decide to go "straight" and return their allegiance to their original team? Or has provision made for whether their allegiance can shift, be bought, or offered for sale, to other captains at some point in the game (perhaps for a certain amount of gold)?

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

I will be off this game, want to make some break.

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

Captains compete only against other captains for their choice of nations. Captains also are the only ones who can earn traitor points.

Yes; a captain can spend points on his own team members. A captain wins all ties. So if Sept as captain, and Wrana as captain both bid 1 point on a team member - that team member stays allied with his nominal team.

Traitors cannot decide to go straight. They will win with their actual team.

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

Example:

Suppose there are three nominative teams:

Wrana's Wraiders
Septs Vestal Virgins
Igor 'orribles.

The three captains bid: With the outcome the Igor bids 50 points for Niefle; Wrana bids 45 points for Hinnom and Sept bids 5 points for EA Agartha.

Teams are arranged. After all the player bids it works out like this:



Igor (Niefle)
Dr.P: Ulm 10
Micah: Hellheim 25
Hoplo: Vanheim 15

Sept: (Agartha)
Squirrel: Mictlan 35
Frank Toll: Abysia 25
Gandalf: Sauromatia 65


Wrana (Hinnom)
MadFrancis Fomoria 25
JimMorrison: Ctis 20
Grudge: Arco 25


So each captain receives 1 traitor point. Additionally, Sept tells me on top of his 5 point bid he will not spend 120 MORE points... for a total cost of 125. He will have a total of 4 traitor points.

Wrana says that he will not use an additional 40 points: 2 traitor points.

Igor says that *he* will not use 40 poitns.. 2 traitor points.


The captains each secretly tell me their traitor point allocation
suppose it was like this:

Igor (Niefle)
Dr.P: Ulm
Micah: Hellheim IS
Hoplo: Vanheim W

Sept: (Agartha)
Squirrel: Mictlan IS
Frank Toll: Abysia
Gandalf: Sauromatia


Wrana (Hinnom)
MadFrancis Fomoria SS W
JimMorrison: Ctis
Grudge: Arco

So, here's how it works out.

Mad Francis *secretly* is working for Sept.
Hoplo is secretly working for Wrana.

Hoplo can only win - if wrana wins. Mad Francis will only win, once sept's team gets the requisite 1/2 +1 capitols. They only need 7.. they have 5! (Might have to play with that VP worked better with 4 teams).

Still .. Agartha AND giving up 125 points.. will he lose??

The players and the captains will be told who they are really working for.
Although, I'm tempted to only tell the players - to make it a REAL backstabbing game.

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

Regarding your above example, if I understand correctly (and I am guessing the I,S,W refer to the captains bids), I've spent 2 traitor points on Mad Francis which is why I have won him rather than Wrana (SS stands for 2 bids). And the traitor point bids on Mictlan and Helheim have cancelled each other out so those players remain loyal to their teams.

Any thought given to how the co-opted player might feel about playing the traitor role (given they have no choice in the matter)? Especially since that player would be the subject of immediate attack by his compatriots if discovered.

I am guessing overall, the effect of the combo of unspent design points spent on pretenders and on traitor points, a captain will likely want/need to go with a rainbow/immobile or other cheapo or non-awake pretender, particularly if they want a "power" nation and/or want to ensure they can buy some allies or ensure the loyalty of their crew, unless they don't mind taking some hits on their scales or magic.

Hmm, as an aside, I guess the object of your pretender point bidding and the various point schemes I've seen for nation selection is an attempt to ensure fairness in the competition for the perceived "power" nations. Looks like it might be useful in non-team games especially, not so sure if it is the optimal way to go in team games though. I do wonder if it doesn't favor veterans or more experienced players (especially in non-team games), as rank noobs would not be well versed in pretender choices, nation selection, which nations are "better", and the many subleties of pretender design. :)

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

Since I am not in this I can feel free to ask some questions and perhaps murk up the waters some.:p

What if a traitor wants to be a DOUBLE AGENT and doesn't care about the official win, but would rather just have a good time?

I think with all the new guys it would show up pretty quick, just throwing a curve ball at you.:)

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

er that would be a real pain in the *** and would interfere with *other* peoples reasonable expectation of fun too.

This remains a team game - even tho not everyone will know what the teams *are*.

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

Correct.

I'm hoping that since players are signing up for a Traitors! game that they will be willing to accept the game premise = ).

Well, experienced players may be better at bidding for particular nations.

However, I think the minimum points is useful for all players. In the countdown game, there was no mictlan, sauromatia, or hinnom.

This lets some of the lesser played nations get played on more competitive basis.

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

Sorry if I brought up a point that I shouldn't have...I would never do that bt I was just wondering about the few on here that 'might'think about it.

Should have just kept my comment to myself.

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

Murky Waters: Wasn't that some jazz singer?

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

Thanks for the info Chris. I wanted to be sure I understood the concept and/or any potential issues. I might suggest a wrap around map to prevent traitors from being hemmed in due to placement and allow them to hook up easier with their co-conspirators. As I mentioned, I can play as captain or as a team member, assuming their is enough interest to start fairly soon.

I'd probably like to get more experience with Agartha, purely for learning purposes. Also never player Sauromatia. Haven't fully decided yet or looked at pretender designs. My initial bid would be minimum.

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

Thanks to Chris's persuasive skills, now official. :) Except that I won't play Hinnom, of course.
Any prospective Wraiders should "write themselves down right along the blade", as was said in one of the best novels of modern Russian fantasy. ;)

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 8/16 Two Captains - One More!
 

An interesting expression Wrana.. I'd be interested in the author and the title.


So we have Wrana's Raiders: Awaiting the mighty captain's bid.
And I'm just going to annoint sept as another captain. What do you want your team name to be?

I'm making one small suggestion to the game rules. When the game starts, I will give each captain the password to the game. Any captain may approve a delay; Any other change (on the honor system) will require all captains to agree. Comments?

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 8/16 Two Captains - One More!
 

I believe group identity is important in a team game (especially with a decent sized team), and the starting point is of course team name. Vestal Virgins? :) You should know the Emperor is also fond of Celtic and Gallic slave girls and other exotics (don't know if true historically) but I can tell you Severus spent the last years of his life campaigning in Britain/Scotland.

My favorite team names/ideas were Deva's Darlings, Chris' Curmudgeons, DrP's Panoply of Pain, and my all time favorite Gandalf's Groovy Gang. :D Haven't thought of a team name yet though. Sept's Subversives, The Apostates, hmm.

That is fine, it will mean you will have less control as admin, but I know you tend to be rather laid back at least in terms of delays. The game should certainly appeal to those who prefer a non-theme based team game without any AIs.

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

Do folks play a lot of team games with themes and AI's?

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

Well, mods are definitely becoming more standard.

Both mods and themes are ways of extending the life of a game.
Human players are much more interesting and challenging than the AI.

I don't consider the game playable vs ai. Its mind numbingly simple. You have no idea the difference MP vs Ai play. Its a whole new world = )

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

I will not play, but I do have an entertaining and potentially suicidal strategy if a captain wants an idea of something interesting to do.

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

I agree. Whatever can be done to extend the life of the game and keep things interesting, can/should/is being done.

Nothing beats human players of course, though I do think the AI can be challenging especially for very new players or players who have never really played against them before. Beats static indies anyway.

Wonder what Squirrel has in mind, sounds devilishly delicious. :evil:

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

Why on earth would I want to join a multiplayer game and fight the AI? Seems like MP games take months. I can beat up 15 AI's in a couple days at 40 turns a day. I just can't imagine the motivation to do that at less than one turn a day. Sounds boring as hell. Especially after what Chris Pedersen above said that the AI is easy.

Do you put AI's in multiplayer games? What on earth for?

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

When AIs are added to MP games from the beginning, you've got a comp stomp which can be interesting or desirable for some players, it also presents a greater challenge in my opinion versus just regular indies. Oftentimes the AIs that are added to MP games (like the GENOCIDE AIs in the NaV series) are enhanced/modified and/or boosted, and are generally much tougher/and or more challenging than your typical run-of-the-mill unmodified AIs. As a matter of fact, the AI can in theory at least, be made powerful enough (but not necessarily smart enough) to wipe every player off the map.

But of course whenever a player drops in any MP game, and a replacement cannot be found, you wind up fighting against AIs, like it not. You're also fighting against a static AI/computer opponent whenever you attack an indy province. :)

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

Oh. You meant a coop game. I guess I can see the point of that. 4-6 players working together to kill a pack of AI's. So you have modified the AI's artificial intelligence? I didn't realize you could do that. Making the AI's smarter would be cool.

Oh I read a bit about that NaV series. Those weren't coop games. They were team games with some extra AI's stuck into it.

PS: Can you boost AI's in single player? That would be fun. Bashing 4 super AI's as fast as you can play.

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

Don't want to get the thread off topic (apologies to Chris). The NaV series is cooperative in the sense the AI is the common enemy/obstacle of all the teams (you can read about our trials/tribulations against the AI in the NaV forum archives using the link in my signature).

Modifications to the AI programming logic (i.e. making it smarter) would have to be done by the developers but there are certain things you can do via modding, map editing, etc, to attempt to keep the AI from doing some nonsensical things and to give it a huge starting advantage/powerful forces/production bonuses/good pretenders/scales, etc.

I am one of those players that jumped right into MP without really every learning how to play/beat AI opponents in single player, so its a great learning opportunity for me. I also enjoy working with other players to beat up on or challenge the AIs.

Yes, you can boost the AIs in single player.

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

Boosting an AI in SP has a slight problem, however: you got full information as to exactly how it was boosted (Pretender design, etc.). A workaround here would be using scenario made by someone else. Also, there is a SemiRand, though this I didn't test personally. And Gandalf's server offers some opportunities for this, including these "coop" games (I'm not familiar with this term myself, but I think this is the same as what you meant) - try to proceed from his signature. ;)

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 8/12
 

There are a variety of things you can do.
You can use map statements to make the AI's never attack each other for example.

Gandalf's game server always has a bunch of random games (boosted ai's) where it will be you against everyone else; alternately you can play a couple of players versus all the AIs.



And with that.. lets get back to this current game:

Sept we need a name for your team, and we need to spread the word and get another captain.

By my count if we could get 3 teams of 4 you could start. So we are one captain and a couple of players away.

Re: Traitors! Team Game! 6/16
 

Well Chris, it can be difficult to come up with a team name that is reflective of commonality or shared attributes without knowing the nations or the players on the team. But, let see, since the game is about traitors/loyalty and following along the lines of Wrana's Raiders, we can go with Septimius' Seditionists. ;)

Yes, there must be more interest in the game to get started, especially if there's a dearth of players during the summer months (in the northern hemisphere).