The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

OK, so I know this little project died way back in the spring somewhen, and the pages devoted to it on my webspace have been festering un-updated for months, but now that the viking production machine is slowing down again, I thought I'd make another effort to create some continuity between mods.

For those who missed it / ignored it the first time round...
I'm trying to create some sort of vague "standard" set of filenames for non-standard hullsizes, so that a shipset creator can make his shipset compatible with a number of different present and future mods more easily.

For example, in S_J's Pirates and Nomads mod, the battlemoon image has to be called
"massivebaseship". In the Star Wars mod though, the Battlemoon (Well, Death Star actually, but it's still a big, grey, round thing) goes by the name of "LDS". Which name should I use for my vikings shipset? I can only be compatible with just one, but I want my battlemoon image to be used by both mods.

If theese two modders agreed upon a standard file name for these big grey round things, then shipset creators might start making shipsets that include them. Then, future modders could call for big grey round thing images in their mods in the knowledge that there are already dozens of shipsets out there with images to support them.

The idea goes beyond just that one example though, obviously: Extra fighter sizes seem to be used by many different mods. Also infantry, mining / resource generating hulls and many others which may exist or come to exist in the future.

The problem comes with those shipsets which have no extra images at all and never will. This problem is solved by adding files to the generic shipset. I am willing to spend time creating new generic images if necessary.

Now that my viking shipset is almost complete and freely available, I'd like to start trying to standardise some of the non-standard images.

So, the major mods I am most familiar with, (other than TDM which uses no non-standard images anyway) are Pirates and Nomads, and the Star Wars mod. Also, you were the guys that showed an interest Last time=-) So...

S_J, your P&N mod currently calls for a pic called "massivebaseship", which is used for the battlemoon. You include a generic image for it, and another identical image titled "battlemoon". You also have extra hull sizes, but no special images for drop
pods, bio-fanatics, resource ships/ stations and 2 extra fighter sizes.

Andres, your mod calls for:
3 death star images called "sds", "mds" and "lds", & one picture called "infantry"
I'm assuming you have generic images for these.

There are also fighter sizes including a TIE bomber, which just use standard fighter images.

Here is my suggestion for a working system- and it is just a suggestion. If necessary I can create generic images to fill in any gaps. (Even if I just copy another generic image and rename it)

EDIT: Table wasn't clear, so I attached it as a text file.

If you guys were to establish this as a starting point, i think other modders and shipset creators would follow suit and we could start the ball rolling.

Would this system work? Do you think those images are compatible? Are there any changes you want made? I know it sucks using a generic fighterbomber image rather than a race-specific largefighter image, but if this idea catches on then I believe that most new shipsets will be created with race-specific images for all or most of these extra sizes, and that authors will start to update their back- catalogues. I've tried to show the way with the vikings and I seem to be getting a good response. I can even start making additional images for existing shipsets if necessary.

[ March 12, 2003, 16:24: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

I like the idea of a system that is used throughout, would definitely make shipsets more cross-mod compatible with less work.

I would make a few suggestions to make the naming more consistant to SEIV :

Call Infantry "TroopShock" or "TroopVeteran"

Call Huge Fighter "FighterHuge" or "FighterMassive"

and add :

"ExplorerShip" - made for long range exploration
"ScoutShip" - made for speed and intel
"ColonyShipLarge" - Available before Large Transport but geared for larger colonies

I know the Last three ship types can be created from other hulls, but I think these hulls could be given different restrictions and bonuses to make them useful.

Now if you can just get everyone on the same page...

Val

[This message has been edited by Val (edited 16 November 2001).]

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

QUOTE:
I like the idea of a system that is used throughout, would definitely make shipsets more cross-mod compatible with less work.
/QUOTE

Thanks for saying it so concisely. Why can't I ever express this project in less than 200 words?

QUOTE:
I would make a few suggestions to make the naming more consistant to SEIV :
/QUOTE

Point taken, but the SEIV naming system is hardly consistent anyway. IE lightcruiser but transportlarge.

QUOTE:
Call Infantry "TroopShock" or "TroopVeteran"
/QUOTE

Hmm. How about "TroopInfantry"?

QUOTE:
Call Huge Fighter "FighterHuge" or "FigterMassive"
/QUOTE

I'll see what is already in use. Fighterbomber is quite a popular usage. Remember we're only naming the images, not the hull sizs. The troubl with "huge" and "massive" is that there could be some confusion as to which is the bigger.

QUOTE:
and add :
"ExplorerShip" - made for long range exploration
"ScoutShip" - made for speed and intel
"ColonyShipLarge" - Available before Large Transport but geared for larger colonies

I know the Last three ship types can be created from other hulls, but I think these hulls could be given different restrictions and bonuses to make them useful.
/QUOTE

Like I say, we're naming images, not hull sizes. In other words I don't want to tell the modders what to use these images for, I just want to make the images available for them. I'm not aware of any current mods which use those sizes (although devnull used to have an ark ship) so there's no point trying to standardising them.

QUOTE:
Now if you can just get everyone on the same page...
/QUOTE

Yeah I know...



------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>QUOTE:
I would make a few suggestions to make the naming more consistant to SEIV :
/QUOTE

Point taken, but the SEIV naming system is hardly consistent anyway. IE lightcruiser but transportlarge.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>SE4 is not exactly consistent, its true. However, unless you plan to change the unmodded imagenames, we're stuck with them.
As for what you add, I like the idea of making the names follow an SE4 style.

PS: You need square [] brackets around "quote" and "/quote".

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>QUOTE:
Call Huge Fighter "FighterHuge" or "FigterMassive"
/QUOTE

I'll see what is already in use. Fighterbomber is quite a popular usage. Remember we're only naming the images, not the hull sizs. The troubl with "huge" and "massive" is that there could be some confusion as to which is the bigger. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In my case, the Nomads still have only 3 useful fighter sizes, so I used small/medium/large images for them. The internal game names are not important.

As a first approximation, using either mount sizes, or planet sizes would work quite nicely to expand the range of sizes.
{Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge}
{(Light/Small), (Medium), Large, Heavy, Massive}

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>PlanetoidLarge -&gt; Battlemoon or Large Death Star<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Are you defining the standard name here?
IE. "Planetoid" is a vehicle large enough to form itself into a sphere shape?
Just wondering if that bit is finalized, or up for discussion.

--------------------

Now, I could write a utility to go through a shipset, copying & renaming images to fill the gaps between it and your standard.

For example, the program would check to see if there is a "_planetoidlarge", and if not, look down a list of replacements. The choices would be "_massivebaseship", "_planetoidmedium", "_planetoidsmall", "_baseship", and so on.
If all that fails, then the shipset would be left to use the mod's default image. (Note that "_baseship" doesn't exist, but would likely be a good image to copy.

At the end of the process, the shipset would have most or all of your standard image files; the actual pictures would be duplicated, but the ships would retain the colour scheme of the race rather than use mod defaults.

Note: If I write this, you could define your standard shipset to use "_cruiserLight", and not "_lightCruiser".
My program would simply use "_lightCruiser" as the first choice to copy to "_cruiserLight".

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Point taken, but the SEIV naming system is hardly consistent anyway. IE lightcruiser but transportlarge.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As to the point of consistancy, I had noticed that the transports where categorized as Large instead of Heavy as well, but put that down to it generally being meant as a "non-combatant". I have no clue why the LightCruiser is named that way, probably something they accidently did and never "fixed".

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
As a first approximation, using either mount sizes, or planet sizes would work quite nicely to expand the range of sizes.
{Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge}
{(Light/Small), (Medium), Large, Heavy, Massive}
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like the idea of using the mount sizes. Then you have:
FighterLight, FighterHeavy and FighterMassive to add.

Any of those fighter sizes can be made into a fighter bomber. If people planned for the FighterBomber had some unique hull stats or abilities, then it should be added.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
PlanetoidLarge -&gt; Battlemoon or Large Death Star
Are you defining the standard name here?
IE. "Planetoid" is a vehicle large enough to form itself into a sphere shape?
Just wondering if that bit is finalized, or up for discussion.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, if we keep to the Planetoid (or whatever word we use instead) idea and use the Light, Small, Medium, Large, Heavy, Massive designations you can have a range of "Battlemoons" or "Death Stars" to chose from (or for that matter Orkie Rocks or Space Hulks), since the picture is all that is referenced. This might even lead to a craftworld type object.

We can do the same with troops, adding Light, Heavy and Massive.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Like I say, we're naming images, not hull sizes. In other words I don't want to tell the modders what to use these images for, I just want to make the images available for them. I'm not aware of any current mods which use those sizes (although devnull used to have an ark ship) so there's no point trying to standardising them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The extra hulls would be geared towards new ship types that would be common throughout mods, though the exact abilities may differ, as seen fit by the modders (or not used at all). The names are just a generic desription for what they are "best" used for. As you say, the pics are there for the use, if they want them and could be used for something else.

So, we could potentially add:

"ExplorerShip" - made for long range exploration
"ScoutShip" - made for speed and intel
"ColonyShipLarge" - Available before Large Transport but geared for larger colonies
"TransportTroop" - Gives some sort of bonus on planetary assault - can be broken down into sizes
"ProspectorShip" or "ResourceShip - for resource generation
"MiningStation" - for resource mining/generation


and the already discussed:

TroopLight
TroopHeavy
TroopMassive
TroopInfantry
Planetoid(or whatever word)Light
PlanetoidSmall
PlanetoidMedium
PlanetoidLarge
PlanetoidHeavy
PlanetoidMassive
FighterLight
FighterHeavy
FighterMassive
FighterBomber

[This message has been edited by Val (edited 16 November 2001).]

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

Quotes in no particular order.

[QUOTE}
...plan to change the unmodded imagenames...
[/quote]

No way! That would be ridiculous. I was just pointing out that if Malfador isn't going to be fastidious about ship names, why should we? I agree that we should use the shipadjective format (ie transportlarge) rather than adjectiveship (lightcruiser) because it Groups files together nicely when sorted alphabetically. Other than that, I'd rather be a little creative with the names rather than tie ourselves to conventions which may not suit in the future.

But no, I don't want to redefine all the standard images. I just want to make most efficient use of the non-standard ones=-) Trying to reclassify FighterSmall as FighterLight etc would be a bureaucratic idiocy. I see your argument for fightermassive rather than fighterbomber but... I just like it better. I'm not really bothered though, as long as we can get everyone using the same names.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
...planetoid?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't go around defining conventions without consultation... it was just a suggestion. Besides, I can't finalise anything, you're the modders- who the hell am I?=p. It just seemed to me that planetoid is one of the few words that can describe both a Death Star and a Battlemoon. After all, they're very different things- all they have in common is that they're big, grey and round. Fortunately, when you're talking about images, what something looks like is the only thing that really counts.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
...utility...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This sounds clever, but it's the kind of thing I'd rather see in the game itself. Also, when would you run it? Would it leave all your files with the wrong names if you then wanted to run a different mod?

All this talk would be redundant if the vehiclesize.txt allowed you to specify a secondary image (between the first choice and the generic) if the first choice wasn't found.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
...planetoid...Orkie Rocks...Craftworld...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, I think a range of giant death stars would be good. 3 is enough though... anyone modding more than that probably needs to spend more time away from their computer.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
...troops...light...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think "infantry" or "troopinfantry" should definitely be used rather than "trooplight". There's a significant visual difference between an infantry unit (guys on foot with guns) and an SE4 troop. (tank, mecha, giant robot etc)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
...explorer...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those are all good ideas (I never thought of a specialised troop transport hull=-) but I think it might be an idea to let this thing develop at it's own pace - only define conventions where they are needed. If no mod (or only the one mod) has an "explorer" class, then I don't see much point in standardising it. These standards are only meaningful when you have more than one mod using similar hull types but under different names.

Hey... any other modders want to jump in on this? The more the merrier

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M&gt;M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I agree that we should use the shipadjective format (ie transportlarge) rather than adjectiveship (lightcruiser) because it Groups files together nicely when sorted alphabetically.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Totally in agreement here. Makes it much easier to sort through.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
If no mod (or only the one mod) has an "explorer" class, then I don't see much point in standardising it. These standards are only meaningful when you have more than one mod using similar hull types but under different names.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed again. But, we can see which ones people might be interested in expanding into as well. Plan ahead and save time down the line http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

I also editted my previous post to correct a few mistakes (such as leaving out TroopInfantry).

Val

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This sounds clever, but it's the kind of thing I'd rather see in the game itself. Also, when would you run it? Would it leave all your files with the wrong names if you then wanted to run a different mod? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Some Clarification:
- The utility would be run once, when you install a shipset.
- The utility will not change or delete any existing images.
- The utility will add all the images described by your standard, by copying the closest existing image.

So, the shipset will look exactly the same in unmodded SE4, and in mods that only use images created by the shipset designer.
Under mods that use your standard image names, the shipset will have one of the original images, rather than using the generic race default.

Running the utility on one of the shipsets included with SE4 (Eee), it would add to the shipset the following:
New picture name ===&gt; copy of Old picture
Eee_mini_troopinfantry ==&gt; Eee_pop_portrait
Eee_portrait_troopinfantry ==&gt; Eee_race_portrait
Eee_mini_fighterLight ==&gt; Eee_mini_fightersmall
Eee_portrait_fighterLight ==&gt; Eee_portrait_fightersmall
Eee_mini_PlanetoidLarge ==&gt; Eee_mini_starbase

etc...
The pop -&gt; infantry is nice, the small -&gt; light is OK, and the starbase -&gt; planetoid is pushing things.
If no reasonable choice is available, the image can be left nonexistant, and the race can use the mod's default.
The goal here is to keep each races picture's unique, so you don't have to play a game where everybody is using the same default image for their ships & units.

P&N Eg. "Who's battlemoon is that? They all look the same!"


Essentially, you could see it as the practical implementation of:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>All this talk would be redundant if the vehiclesize.txt allowed you to specify a secondary image (between the first choice and the generic) if the first choice wasn't found.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>since, if the primary image (specified by your standard) is not there, the secondary choices will be tried in order.
MY utility: "No baseship image? Then is there a starbase image? Copy the starbase image to 'baseship'"
SE4: Looks for "baseship", and always finds it.
Either it is the designer's original intention, or it is the backup "starbase" image, if the designer didn't make an explicit baseship image.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 16 November 2001).]

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

Clever...

So it would be a bit like your AI patcher. In fact you might consider integrating the two.

Would it be for P&N only or would it get instructions from a text file so that other modders could make it work for them?

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M&gt;M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

I haven't updated that mod since before Last time this topic was discussed. I think I was about to change the name of old deathstar pics.
I'll change that when I get to work again in that mod and also make it compatible with seiv ver 1.49, and complete things I never got to add.

I think that to make modders use the new "standard pic names", it will be more important to create compatible shipsets than to create one or two compatible mods.
If a few sample shipsets are available, I think that other shipset artists will start copying that, making pictures for all those extra sizes. And modders will find that pictures are already there and use them in their mods.
It looks like your Viking shipset is going to be the first example.
I will make all images for the shipsets I have in progress and then my priority should be to "upgrade" all of my shipsets to the "new standard", and not edit that obsolete mod.
If we can convince other people such as Atrocities and John Beech to upgrade their shipsets and promote this standard in their websites, then most of the shipset makers will follow.
suicide_junkie's proposed program sounds cool.

Andrés

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
No way! That would be ridiculous. I was just pointing out that if Malfador isn't going to be fastidious about ship names, why should we? I agree that we should use the shipadjective format (ie transportlarge) rather than adjectiveship (lightcruiser) because it Groups files together nicely when sorted alphabetically. Other than that, I'd rather be a little creative with the names rather than tie ourselves to conventions which may not suit in the future.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree, do not change pic names such as lightcruiser to keep compatibility with non modded game without the need of redundant copies.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Yeah, I think a range of giant death stars would be good. 3 is enough though... anyone modding more than that probably needs to spend more time away from their computer.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Remember my ultimate vehicle size mod?
I was planning to revamp it once we agree with this standard.

Ok these are the names and sizes I propose:
Ship Name – Pic Name – Description

Normal ships:
Scout – Scout – smaller than Escort
Baseship – Baseship – let’s standardize this pic name for baseship size, some shipsets (Atrocities’) use bs as pic name
Small PlanetCraft? Small Planetoid? Small Worldship? Small WorldCraft? – Larger than Baseship
Medium PlanetCraft? Medium Planetoid? Medium Worldship? Medium WorldCraft? – Larger than previous one
Large PlanetCraft? Large Planetoid? Large Worldship? Large WorldCraft? – Larger than previous one

Ships such as Corvette, Heavy Destroyer, etc are not necessary. I agree the names sound cool, but there’s not an important gap between ship sizes. Maybe there is a gap between the Dreadnought and the baseship. What about a Monitor, or Super Dreadnought?

Troops:
Infantry – Infantry – IMHO InfantryTroop is unnecessary redundant, there are not things such as InfantryFighters. Looks like SJ now agrees that smallest troops should be infantry and not drop pods?

Fighters:
The standard are Small, Medium, and Large changing them or adding others such as Light and Heavy will only generate confusion.
Sizes I propose are:
Tiny Fighter – FighterTiny – Smaller than small fighter
Massive Fighter – FighterMassive or FighterBomber – Larger and maybe slower than Large Fighter

Specialized Ships:
Large Colony ship – bigger than standard one

And not sure about this one.
Special Ship – ShipSpecial – A ship with special abilities, such as resource ship, resource miner, stellar manipulation barge, etc. Maybe a small, medium and large ones.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Looks like SJ now agrees that smallest troops should be infantry and not drop pods?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I still use a troop size called "drop pod", and I don't plan on changing it. (The vehicle is a "drop pod", and the components of the drop pod include infantry. The larger troops are tanks & stuff, so they can probably survive a surface landing without being inside something else)
I figure that theres no point in having a picture of the pods; we want to see the units in action, so I will use a picture of the race when this standard is nailed down.
I agree that we need an Infantry unit image, and it only makes sense to call it troopInfantry.

By default, the racial pictures
"raceX_pop_portrait" would be perfect for the "raceX_mini_troopInfantry", and
"raceX_race_portrait" would be great for the "raceX_portrait_troopInfantry" images.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

OK, It think we're making real progress=-)

IMHO, the important ships to discuss are the ones already in use:

Infantry (Storm troopers, bio fanatics. Maybe or maybe not drop pods.).
I think the standard name for this image should be "TroopInfantry"

Big Round Grey Things (death star/ battlemoon).
I think the standard name for these images should be "PlanetoidSmall/ Medium/ Large)

Mining Ships & Stations (S_J's nomad resource hulls)
I think the standard names for these images should be "Prospector" and "MiningStation")

Fighters. S_J says he doesn't need extra fighter images after all, so I think just "FighterBomber" for Andres' TIE bomber.

Does this cover all your extra hull sizes? Would you guys be happy to make the above changes to your vehiclesize.txt files? Should we vote on "planetoid" vs "worldship" or "prospector" vs something else?

Like I say, these are the important ones since they are the ones actually relevent to your mods. I think we should agree on these before we discuss tiny fighters, stellar manip barges, corvettes, troop transports and whatever else. They can be added afterwards - the standard can grow and evolve to accomodate them as necessary.

Oh, and thanks for your support with all this, guys=-)

BTW, I still haven't had any response from other modders=-( but it is the weekend. Good news about Devnullmod though=-)

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M&gt;M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Mining Ships & Stations (S_J's nomad resource hulls)
I think the standard names for these images should be "Prospector" and "MiningStation")<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't have resource hulls anymore; I replaced that with 1% maintenance, plus the minimum production, plus trade/thefts.

As for the prospector/miningstation, I'm thinking we want to get across the idea of "big ship with scoops/loading bays"

- Some sort of Scavenger, Collector type idea.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Infantry (Storm troopers, bio fanatics. Maybe or maybe not drop pods.).
I think the standard name for this image should be "TroopInfantry"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I repeat that IMHO InfantryTroop is unnecessary redundant, just Infantry is enough. But if you insist in that pic name, I’ll follow.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Fighters. S_J says he doesn't need extra fighter images after all, so I think just "FighterBomber" for Andres' TIE bomber. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Neither I do. I made three fighter sizes TIE Fighter, TIE Bomber and TIE Advanced using the Small, Large and Medium fighter pictures (they match the fighters I used in the SW-Emp1 shipset). In my mod they come with the SW racial advantage, and are smaller but this similar performance compared with standard fighters which they make obsolete and not worth researching.
Fighters I think could be useful to modders are smaller and bigger than standard, a FighterTiny and a FighterMassive.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Does this cover all your extra hull sizes?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It exceeds my extra sizes, but that’s not important. My mod adds very few sizes, and its not a great mod by itself.
What we need to do is to make enough ships pictures for modders to use. We can even create a simple mod using all the “standard” pictures.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Would you guys be happy to make the above changes to your vehiclesize.txt files?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I said that I haven’t updated that mod in a loooong time, but yes, next time I update it I’ll make it compatible.
But as I said in my previous post, it will be more important to create compatible shipsets.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Should we vote on "planetoid" vs "worldship" or "prospector" vs something else?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would vote for “PlanetCraft” or “WorldShip”, something that makes clear that it is a ver big sized ship and not a stellar body.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As for the prospector/miningstation, I'm thinking we want to get across the idea of "big ship with scoops/loading bays"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What about a “SpecialShip” and “SpecialStation” that could have different functions in different mods.

This is the VehicleSize file from Hadrian Aventine's Ultimate Mod (about to be updated), in case you want to take a look at the extra sizes there.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What about a “SpecialShip” and “SpecialStation” that could have different functions in different mods.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The problem with that is "special" could mean so very many things.
The filename should describe the picture, but not limit the use too much.
Its all about balance.
"Big scoopy ship"
"Little scoopy ship"
"Civilian Craft"
"Superbig round ship"
"People with guns"
I think that's about the level of detail we need to specify with this image name standard.

--------------------

"Worldship" sounds good.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 18 November 2001).]

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

Hey, I am all for standardization and anything that makes it easier on people creating new shipsets. But I am not totally clear on the idea here. I appologize for my ignorance. I took on the task of updating the DevNull Mod mainly because I am such a fan of it and wanted to see it included in the CD. I am not really very proficient at the art of modding. My Trek Mod was just replacing images, I didn't really add anything.

I can see how there could be a problem if the mod has new images it's looking for and the shipsets don't have those images. But I don't see what needs done to the Devnull Mod. I looked through the vehiclesize.txt file and while he has added several new hull types, they all use the exsisting default images. How would this cause a problem for anyones shipsets? Wouldn't your special images jsut not get used and not give you any kind of error?

I am loathe to remove any of the hull sizes in Devnull Mod. I can see all sorts of problem with research and vehicle designs that I am not sure I am qualified to correct. And I don't see the need if they won't cause problems in the first place.

If you could clear me up on this I would be more than happy to get on board.

Geoschmo

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"Big scoopy ship"
"Little scoopy ship"
"Civilian Craft"
"Superbig round ship"
"People with guns"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well it should describe the picture but not so literally.
Not all resource ships will have scoops,
Not all worldships will be round, maybe they are cubes
Some infantry can be monsters that fight without weapons, or small sized mechanized troops.
Civilian craft... No, don’t think there can be any civilian crafts (they shouldn’t be controlled by players, but by civilians in the pop) do you mean weaponless ships?

The idea of the special ship was just a ship like looks different. Although some carriers have visible fighter bays, most are just small, medium and large ships that match the shipset but look different than standard ships. The same happens with transports. So what about a third kind of ship that matches the shipset but looks different. Doesn’t matter exactly what function it performs, (it can be a resource ship, a specialized satellite layer, or whatever-a-modder-can-think-of) just that it looks different from other ships, and that there can be small, medium and large variations.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

You’re right Geo, DevNull mod adds new vehicle sizes, but uses the standard pictures, new shipsets should work alright.
But, when you’re creating a shipset, either if you’re drawing it from scratch, or using pictures compiled from some sci-fi source, can easily make or find pictures for those extra sizes.
But what would be the point of creating for example a Prospector picture, if it’s never going to be used.
Modification of the mod would be that, once we agree on a standard, use s_j’s proposed program or manually duplicate pictures and modifying the vehiclesizes file to use at least some of them. That way if you add shipset with extra pictures, the new sizes will use the new pictures. (I’ve been experimenting about creating extra pics for standard shipsets look at the attachments)
I hope this makes our objective clearer.

We’re dealing with pictures here getting the AI to research and design according to the mod is a completely different problem, and I don’t think that that can be standardized.

[This message has been edited by Andrés Lescano (edited 18 November 2001).]

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am loathe to remove any of the hull sizes in Devnull Mod. I can see all sorts of problem with research and vehicle designs that I am not sure I am qualified to correct. And I don't see the need if they won't cause problems in the first place.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nobody ever has to remove shipsizes.
All of the original SE4 images will always be there.

What we plan to do is define a set of add-on pictures that every shipset can be automatically updated to include.

That way, modders can use the extra images if they feel like it, without worrying about shipsets.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Well it should describe the picture but not so literally.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I never intended to use those as the actual filenames. That's just the mental image that the filename should evoke.
The filenames are just guidelines and act as an interface between the shipset designer and the modder.

If a modder wants a remote miner ship picture, they see "Scavenger: a big scoopy ship", and use that.
When a shipset designer sees the same thing, they can say "I'm doing a trek set, so I'll replace the scoops with Bussard Collector domes all over the bottom".

[Some infantry can be monsters that fight without weapons, or small sized mechanized troops.]
What? Monsters and droids are people too! And if they can kill with it, it's a weapon. Even if it looks just like bad breath.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The idea of the special ship was just a ship like looks different. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's flexible for the shipset designer, but what modder would use it? If I have no idea what the thing looks like, how can I tell that it would be good for what I plan to use it for?
You could end up with anything, and chances are, its not what you want.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Civilian craft... No, don’t think there can be any civilian crafts (they shouldn’t be controlled by players, but by civilians in the pop) do you mean weaponless ships?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What would be better than the military taking over a real civilian liner? You could mod it to be a great, cheap troop transport, or a "hiding in plain view" spyship.
They would be dirt cheap to build (well, more like steal), and would cause unhappiness as your pop notices you seizing private property.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

Ok, so I think I'm getting the idea. Basically you want to come up with a semi-standard set of shippic names, and then for the Devnull mod all I would have to do is change some of the custom hull types to use those shippic names instead of reusing the default ship pics the way devnellicus did originally. That doesn't sound too bad.

So for all the shipsets that are with the default game they will just use the generic shippics for those hull types? I don't really like that, but it wouldn't be too much trouble for me to just copy the exsisting images and renaming them with the neo-standard shippic names. If that's all the work I have to do to get with the standard, that won't bee too awful. It might add a couple hundred k to the mod download size, but it will still be well less than 2 MB. That's ok.

How soon are you going to get this going? If we are going to have this ready for the CD Versions, we need to get on the ball.

Geoschmo

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't really like that, but it wouldn't be too much trouble for me to just copy the exsisting images and renaming them with the neo-standard shippic names. If that's all the work I have to do to get with the standard, that won't bee too awful. It might add a couple hundred k to the mod download size, but it will still be well less than 2 MB. That's ok.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I was thinking of writing a utility to to that copying.

Then shipsets only need the basic SE4 images, and the utility creates the standard's addons by copying the closest existing picture.
That way, you save on downloading, while still getting the full effect.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

Good to have you aboard Geo=-)

Good points raised by all. Andres: I see your point about the "planetoid" evoking a planet rather than a ship. For that reason I change my vote to "worldship" =-)

"Troopinfantry" vs "infantry". I just put the "troop" on the front so that when you list a shipset's files alphabtically, the troopinfantry picture will be alongside the other troops. That's the only difference. It's not really important.

Mining vs scavenger vs scoopy vs prospector vs..:
How about "CollectorShip" and "CollectorStation"? Or maybe "ResourceCollectorShip", but that's a bit long.

Love that Jraenar ship BTW. Did you edit the dreanought bmp or did you model and render it?

Finally..
Devnullmod: Now that P&N no longer has nomad resource hulls, and since both P&N and SW prfer to use standard fighter pics for their extra fighter hulls, I don't think there is much potential crossover between Dvnlmod and SW/P&N.
Therefore, naming the Dvnlmod extra sizes (Corvette, DestroyerHeavy, CruiserHeavy, SuperDreadnought, TransportCourier... umm... all the rest...) should be fairly straightforward. The only ones which might need discussion are

Really big hulls (supermonitor etc - could these be worldships?)
the fighters (already under discussion)
mining hulls (already under discussion.)
StellarManipulation Barge (Or should _that_ be a worldship?)

Opinions?

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M&gt;M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

[This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 19 November 2001).]

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

I'm quite keen to include Devnull into the standard since I have already made images for all those extra sizes (have you seen the vikings? There is some slightly less emotive reasoning behind it as well though...

The neo-standard (nice phrase, whoever coined that) will just be a list of file names for modders and shipset creators to refer to / ignore. It doesn't matter how big it gets. The only thing that might matter is how many generic / extra images you are prepared to put into your zip... but then S_J's proposed program would eliminate that problem, by copying & renaming standard images for those races which a lacked neo-standard image. (ie Destroyer &gt; Heavy destroyer).

Also remember that there are different ways of distributing it: We could release a neo-standard modpack, with all the generic images, S_J's program and that Jraenar pic=-). If they wanted to, modders could then include no extra images but list the pack would then be a pre-requisite. Alternatively, each modder could include the entire pack in their mod, or each modder could just include the images necessary for their own mod (This makes most sense) or any combination of the above.
Anyway, the point is that for most mods, adhering to the neo-standard won't necessarily mean a major increase in zip size.

As for the stellar manip barge... I always assumed it was a ship with a max engines of 1. Mind you with solar sails etc I suppose you could still get 7 or 8 movement out of it. The only way around it would probably be to go all quasi-newtonian, which would mean a lot of work. Maybe that's why he used a base hull rather than a ship.
I've never used one (And I haven't yet drawn a viking picture for it=-) so I won't miss it if it goes.

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M&gt;M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

[This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 19 November 2001).]

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogscoff:
As for the stellar manip barge... I always assumed it was a ship with a max engines of 1. Mind you with solar sails etc I suppose you could still get 7 or 8 movement out of it. The only way around it would probably be to go all quasi-newtonian, which would mean a lot of work. Maybe that's why he used a base hull rather than a ship.
I've never used one (And I haven't yet drawn a viking picture for it=-) so I won't miss it if it goes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I believe the idea was a for a ship large enough to hold the stellar manip component so it could be built over a planet and moved to the star. He did not want the large ship to be abused and turned into a warship, so he made it a base with exactly enough room for a stellar manip component and one barge engine. It appeared he was intending to diasallow the barge engines to be used on other types of bases. By choosing a base hull you couldn't put solar sails on it anyway, so that abuse wouldn't happen. I think the intention was for it to only be able to go ane space per turn.

All in all it was a good idea, but it required a couple hard code changes that apparently aren't going to happen.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to remove it entirely. I don't want to turn it into a ship hull unless I can be sure it won't be abused as a super large warhip, for the same reasons he made it a base hull to begin with.
Maybe down the road I can add it back in some fashion, but I have other priorities right now.


Geo

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

I believe (Not sure where I read thie, but it will b on these forums somewhere) Malfador is planning to put planet engines into an upcoming patch. Maybe that could provide some kind of solution to the barge problem.


------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M&gt;M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Therefore, naming the Dvnlmod extra sizes (Corvette, DestroyerHeavy, CruiserHeavy, SuperDreadnought, TransportCourier... umm... all the rest...) should be fairly straightforward.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, I question the "corvette". Exactly how big is it? I imagine somewhere from below an escort to a little less than LC, but that's a pretty wide range.
Also courier, would that be tiny, and/or fast?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm pretty sure I'm going to remove it entirely. I don't want to turn it into a ship hull unless I can be sure it won't be abused as a super large warhip, for the same reasons he made it a base hull to begin with.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How about giving the hull one standard movement? Should work on the base hull, but be sure to set the engines per move to one, and max engines to zero.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I believe (Not sure where I read thie, but it will b on these forums somewhere) Malfador is planning to put planet engines into an upcoming patch. Maybe that could provide some kind of solution to the barge problem.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, move the planet onto the star, and then build the SM base http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 19 November 2001).]

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

Well, Devnellicus made the Corvette 200 Kt, and upped the Frigate to 250.

He also has something called a fast courier that uses the small transport pic and is 210 Kt and allows 8 engines.

And he has five classes of fighters.

I'll try adding the movment to the hull for the SM Barge. That shold work. Thanks.

Geo


[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 19 November 2001).]

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

Hi,

Personally, I love the Courier hull and built many of them in my games to ferry troops and other units to the front quickly.

I also liked the idea of the barge and would hope you keep it if there's any chance of a change in the code.

Ciao,
V'ger gone

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Personally, I love the Courier hull and built many of them in my games to ferry troops and other units to the front quickly.
I also liked the idea of the barge and would hope you keep it if there's any chance of a change in the code<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Don't worry Vger, we're not changing mods, just defining new pictures for them to use.
In that regard we are only discussing whether, and how to define a new image that could be used for those ships.

This standard does not extend beyond images and filenames.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

That Jraenar picture was made by editing bitmaps. I do not have 3d meshes of original ships, and trying to model something that matches so good would be too hard. What I did was basically combine the dreadnought with the engines of the battlecruiser.
It was an experiment to see it if was possible, not all needed new ship sizes for all existing shipsets would be possible to make this way, but I think that there are a lot that can. The plan would be to replace most copied pictures in time.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How soon are you going to get this going? If we are going to have this ready for the CD Versions, we need to get on the ball.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hopefully we can agree soon with the set of names. Then it will be a matter of S_J writing the copying program and dogscoff and me getting a few sample shipsets. It would be great if I can make at least the complete generic shipset, in a similar way I made tha Jraenar ship.

This is my proposition for all sizes of the neo-standard. 20 new size pictures to be added to the 29 original ones, almost dulpicating installed size http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
Format is
ShipPic - Alternative pic (copy source) - simple description.

Corvette - Frigate - Normal ship between ES and FG
DestroyerHeavy - Destroyer - Normal ship between DS and LC
CruiserHeavy - BattleCruiser - Normal ship between CR and BC
DreadnoughtHeavy - Dreadnought/Baseship - Normal ship between DN and baseship
Baseship - Starbase - Normal baseship
BaseshipHeavy? - Baseship/Starbase - bigger than baseship, not sure about this.
WorldShipSmall - None(use generic-neutral if not available) - Battlemoon/death star
WorldShipMedium - None(use generic-neutral if not available) - Battlemoon/death star
WorldShipLarge - None(use generic-neutral if not available) - Battlemoon/death star

ResourceShipSmall - TransportSmall - ship with reduced manteinance for remote mining
ResourceShipLarge - TransportLarge - the same but bigger

CarrierTiny - CarrierLight - carrier smaller than light carrier
CarrierMassive - CarrierHeavy - carrier bigger than heavy carrier

BaseOutpost - BattleStation - Base between battestation and starbase

ColonyShipLarge - ColonyShip - bigger Version of colony ship

TransportTiny - TransportSmall - smaller transport, presumable faster
Should we add a massive one?

FighterHuge - FighterLarge - bigger fighter
FighterMassive - FighterLarge/Escort - even bigger fighter

InfantryTroop - RacePortrait/Pop TroopSmall- very small troop
TroopHuge - TroopLarge - bigger troop


Here's the analysis of vehicle sizes in different mods I used to came up with the conclusion above. I think I considered the most important mods by now. I include my starwars mod only because it was mentioned in this thread, but I don't think it is comparable with those other great mods.

All vehicle sizes are listed in this format:
Name - PicName - Tonnage - Mod(s) where it appears

Mods:
None - Standard Unmoded Game
DN - Devnull Mod
P&N - Pirates & Nomads
UM - Ultimate Mod
SW - Star Wars Mod

Normal Ships:
Escort - Escort - 150 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Corvette - Frigate - 200 - DN
Frigate - Frigate - 200 - None/DN(250kt)/P&N/UM/SW
Monitor - Frigate - 250 - UM
Destroyer - Destroyer - 300 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Heavy Destroyer - Destroyer - 350 - DN/UM(GunShip)
Light Cruiser - LightCruiser - 400 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Orbital Battleship - Cruiser - 750 (slow) - UM
Cruiser - Cruiser - 500 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Heavy Cruiser - BattleCruiser - 600 - DN/UM(575)
Battle Cruiser - BattleCruiser - 600 - None/DN(650kt)/P&N/UM/SW
Battleship - Battleship - 800 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Dreadnought - Dreadnought - 1000 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Super Dreadnought - Dreadnought - 1250 - DN/UM(Behemoth)
Baseship - Starbase - 1500 - None/DN(Monitor)/P&N/UM/SW
Super Monitor - Starbase - 2000 - DN
BattleMoon - MassiveBaseShip - 10000 - P&N/SW(Small Death Star-15000kt)
Medium Death Star - mds - 30000 - SW
Large Death Star - lds - 60000 - SW

Both DN and UM add a 250kt ship, UM adds it as monitor, while DN adds a 200kt corvette and moves the frigate to 250. We only need 1 extra size here, either between ES and FG or between FG and DS. Corvette
DN and UM add a ship between DS and LC. DestroyerHeavy
DN and UM add a Heavy Cruiser ship between CR and BC. CruiserHeavy
DN and UM add a ship between DN and baseship. DreadnoughtHeavy
Baseships deserve their own picture. Baseship
DN super monitors are bigger than baseships, but not even close to battlemoons. Probably they should re-use the monitor/baseship picture not being worth of a new one. BaseshipHeavy?
BattleMoons and Death Stars far above the rest. WorldShipSmall - WorldShipMedium - WorldShipLarge

(UM- Malfadorian)
Galley - Escort - 650 - UM
Trireme - Cruiser - 1300 - UM
Juggernaught - Battleship - 1950 - UM
Magnus Prime - Dreadnought - 2600 - UM

UM adds this ship sizes to players with a specific racial advantage.
I don't know enough about this mod. Maybe they can use pictures to show better their real size, or maybe they are meant to look small (the galley is bigger than a battlecruiser, but looks like an escort).

Special Abilities
Observer - Escort - 130 (built in cloak) - UM
Science Ship - Destroyer - 375 (built in sensors/scanners) - UM
Stellar Manipulator Barge - TransportLarge - 2010 - DN

I'm not sure if these sizes need new pictures or can re-use the ones above.

Prospector - TransportSmall - 200 - DN
Mining Base - TransportLarge - 500 - DN

These ones are nice, maybe a ResourceShipSmall and ResourceShipLarge.

Scenario Resource Ship - Destroyer - 3000 - P&N

Not sure of what is this. It seems to be used only in scenario editing making and not normally available for players. A picture wouldn't be necessary.

Carriers:
Escort Carrier - CarrierLight - 500 - DN/UM(Converted Carrier-TransportMedium-400)
Light Carrier - CarrierLight - 800 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Carrier - Carrier - 1000 - None/DN(Fleet Carrier)/P&N/UM/SW
Heavy Carrier - CarrierHeavy - 1200 - None/DN(1300-Assault Carrier)/P&N/UM(Large Carrier)/SW
Heavy Carrier - CarrierHeavy - 1400 - UM

DN and UM add a 400-500 carrier smaller than light carrier CarrierTiny
UM adds another carrier bigger than normal heavy carrier. CarrierMassive

Bases
Space Station - SpaceStation - 500 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Battle Station - BattleStation - 1500 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Outpost - BattleStation - 2000 - UM
Starbase - Starbase - 2500 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW

Only new base is UM outpost. Do we need a new pic? BaseOutpost

Colony Ships
Colony Ship - ColonyShip - 300 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Ark Ship - ColonyShip - 500 - DN/UM(Colonization Liner)

Dn and UM add a ColonyShipLarge
Note that although a colony ship is the same sze of destroyer, most pictures look as big as a cruiser or battlecruiser.

Transports
Fast Courier - TransportSmall - 210 - DN
Small Transport - TransportSmall - 300 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Medium Transport - TransportMedium - 600 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Large Transport - TransportLarge - 900 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Small Freighter - TransportSmall - 320 (faster) - UM
Medium Freighter - TransportMedium - 620 (faster) - UM
Large Freighter - TransportLarge - 920 (faster) - UM

DN adds a small fast courier. TransportTiny
UM adds a second set of 3 transports, faster and slightly bigger than the first one. they shouldn't need new pics.

Fighters
Small Fighter - FighterSmall - 15 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Medium Fighter - FighterMedium - 20 - None/DN(Interceptor)/P&N/UM/SW
Large Fighter - FighterLarge - 25 - None/DN(Assault Fighter)/P&N/UM/SW
Huge Fighter - FighterLarge - 40 - DN(35kt-Fighter-Bomber)/UM
Heavy Assault Bomber - FighterLarge - 50 - DN/UM(60kt-Skirmisher)

DN and UM add two fighters above large fighter. FighterHuge - FighterMassive

(P&N-Nomads)
Medium Fighter - FighterSmall - 20 - P&N
Large Fighter - FighterSmall - 25 - P&N
Heavy Fighter - FighterMedium - 35 - P&N
Massive Fighter - FighterLarge - 50 - P&N

P&N nomads have a set of 4 fighters, they could use one of the extra fighters above. The think big racial trait adds variations, but they shouldn't need new pics.

(TIEs)
TIE Fighter - FighterSmall - 7 - SW
TIE Bomber - FighterLarge - 11 - SW
TIE Advanced - FighterMedium - 14 - SW

And TIEs in SW use normal fighter pics.

Satellites
Small Satellite - Satellite - 80 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Medium Satellite - Satellite - 100 - None/DN /P&N/UM/SW
Large Satellite - Satellite - 120 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW

There are no new sats, exept for the P&N think big in (100-125-150)

Mines
Small Mine - Mine - 10 - None/DN(5)/P&N/UM/SW
Medium Mine - Mine - 15 - None/DN(10)/P&N/UM/SW
Large Mine - Mine - 20 - None/DN(15)/P&N/UM/SW

DN reduces the size of mines, and only new mines are the P&N think big (12-18-25)

Troops
Light Infantry - Infantry - 1 - SW/P&N(Drop Pod)
Heavy Infantry - Infantry - 2 - SW
Small Troop - TroopSmall - 10 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Medium Troop - TroopMedium - 15 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Large Troop - TroopLarge - 20 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Huge Troop - TroopLarge - 40 - UM

SW and P&N add an InfantryTroop
UM adds a TroopHuge
Think P&N- Think Big also adds bigger variations without needing new pics.

Weapon Platforms
Small Weapons Platform - WeapPlatformSmall - 200 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Medium Weapons Platform - WeapPlatformMedium - 400 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Large Weapons Platform - WeapPlatformLarge - 600 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW

Nothing new here exept for the P&N think big (250-500-750)

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

20 neo-shippics makes for an extra 20 MB for the install. Zipped up for download that would add 6MB to the mod size. For Devnull that quadruples the size for the download. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/shock.gif

I know the plan is to have a batch file pic converter or something. I guess I am just concerned that we are asking for trouble with players that just want the mod and aren't worried about the new shipsets. They might not take the time to run the utility. This would cause errors, no?

If I include the new images in the generic folder in the download, I guess that will work. That would only add about 230 k to the zip file. That way if they don't run the utility for some reason it will just pull the generic Version of the images and they won't get an error.

Geoschmo

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

I'm probably going to drop the stellar manipulation barge from the Devnull mod. It was designed with the idea that Malfador would add the ability for engines to bases at some point. I don't think that is going to happen. Or I may keep it and change it to a ship hull instead of a base hull. I haven't decided. The way it is now it serves no purpose.

There are a few ship sizes in Devnull that are unique and very close to standard hull types, Heavy Cruiser etc., maybe they shouldn't be added to the standard. In those cases I could just continue using the default shippics. If we add shippics to the standard for every unique shippic in every mod, the standard is going to get humungous IMHO.

Tha being said if yuo can find some overlap or something that would work, I am mroe than willing to change those shippic names to match a standard.

Geoschmo

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>20 neo-shippics makes for an extra 20 MB for the install. Zipped up for download that would add 6MB to the mod size. For Devnull that quadruples the size for the download.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How many races are you including with your mod?

Each installed shipset will be increased by 1MB, almost exactly. (1.035 MB).
I know that pictures are horrendous downloads. Even one shipset is roughly the same size as my P&N mod.

You definitely need to separate the mod+generic and the addon shipsets.
Especially since these shipsets will work under any mod, and you don't want to download the same thing three or four times, once with each mod.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>BaseOutpost - BattleStation - Base between battestation and starbase<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How about:
Warstation (space S., battle S., war S., starbase)
or SpaceFortress (Space St. -&gt; SpaceFortress, Battle St. -&gt; Starbase)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>BaseshipHeavy? - Baseship/Starbase - bigger than baseship, not sure about this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Logical name, I'd go for it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Observer - Escort - 130 (built in cloak) - UM<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I would have made use of the Drone image for this http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Not sure of what is this. It seems to be used only in scenario editing making and not normally available for players. A picture wouldn't be necessary.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yep.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>ShipPic - Alternative pic (copy source) - simple description.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Note that it is very easy to have multiple, prioritzed sources.
So the program could first look for a worldshipsmall, then massivebaseship, then worldship medium, then worldship large before giving up and using the generic image.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

A little over 1 mb more for each shipset, that means that if I wanted to upgrade every shipset I have installed (131) I would run out of disk space.

IIRC Devnull mod includes the 20 original races, only AI and no pics. S_J your program should be able to copy from the base race directory when called from inside a mod.

I agree 6 mb extra would make a mod too big, particularly if they are just repeated pictures.
Maybe I’m exaggerating, and not the 20 sizes I mentioned are necessary, they could be reduced to 12-15, without leaving out any important pic. But it would still be a lot of space.

Think they wouldn’t mind if extra pictures were actually new pictures, in fact they would be glad to have different sizes looking different.
That’s why we were thinking about a copying utility, and why Dogscoff suggested different distributing methods. I don’t think there will be a problem with people not running the copying utility. Many people will try to run the mod without running it before, I agree. But after they see an error will check in the readme that they need to run the utility.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

Ok, I have a suggestion.

I can leave the mod the way it is, and include in the mod data dirctory a file called NeoVehicleSize.txt. This file will be identical to the regular mod VehicleSize file, but using the NeoStandard shippic names instead. Then we write the utility to copy all the bitmaps and copy the Neo file over the regular mod VehicleSize file.

For those people that want the neostandard for custom shipsets, it would be no extra work. This way the mod download size remains small, and people that aren't concerned with the custom shipsets don't have to hassle with it. Coming from a support background, I can tell you no matter how good your program is, someone is going to have a problem with it.

What do you guys think? This would remove my Last remaining reservations about what I think is a great idea overall.

One other thing. The utility will be writing the over the pic files in the mod directories, not the default SEIV directory right? Even though the pics are new pics and not overwriting exsisting files, we shouldn't be messing with peoples default directories.

Geoschmo

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

I like it alternative vehicle size files using standad and neo-standard pic sets. Maybe we can release a little file with sample shipsets and vehiclesizes files for different mods.

Maybe this will complicate the program too much, but could it look into the VehicleSizes.txt and only copy pictures that are referenced there?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
quote:
BaseshipHeavy? - Baseship/Starbase - bigger than baseship, not sure about this.

Logical name, I'd go for it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Question here was do we need another picture for this? Or Super Monitors should use baseship pictures just like the normal Monitor?

[This message has been edited by Andrés Lescano (edited 20 November 2001).]

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I can leave the mod the way it is, and include in the mod data dirctory a file called NeoVehicleSize.txt. This file will be identical to the regular mod VehicleSize file, but using the NeoStandard shippic names instead. Then we write the utility to copy all the bitmaps and copy the Neo file over the regular mod VehicleSize file.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Excellent Idea. The Last line of the utility can copy the vehiclesize to a backup, then write over it with NSVS.txt.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>One other thing. The utility will be writing the over the pic files in the mod directories, not the default SEIV directory right? Even though the pics are new pics and not overwriting exsisting files, we shouldn't be messing with peoples default directories.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The utility will never overwrite an existing file, except maybe the vehiclesize.txt as above.

If that's not enough, run it from the mod folder, and I'll have it look into the .\pictures\races folder and upgrade all the races it finds.

Now there is still the question of space. If we drag copies of all the races in the default directory out into mod folders, we'll have Andrés problem multiplied by the number of mods
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>A little over 1 mb more for each shipset, that means that if I wanted to upgrade every shipset I have installed (131) I would run out of disk space.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Maybe this will complicate the program too much, but could it look into the VehicleSizes.txt and only copy pictures that are referenced there?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Better yet (and simpler, too), I could just read from a mod-specific .INI file (a subset of our full .INI, leaving out some image definitions). The modder could specify which of the standard's images are required, and also which images to take as secondary choices.
This might weaken the standard a bit, since modders could define their own set of required images, but shipsets would be coming out with standard images, and it would be a bit of work to alter on your own. (Deleting sections that don't apply to your mod is easy, but adding a few new ones takes more time)

Decision time.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

Wow... looks like you guys sorted it all out while I was asleep. Nice one=-) Not much to add, since I agree with just about everything suggested since I Last posted. A few things though:

A&gt;Configuration:
I've studied Andres' list and I am in almost complete agreement. Here is the list I think we should use.
1&gt;Scout: Although it's not in any of the discussed mods, it seems popular (Already mentioned on this thread) and could be used for the UM Observer.
2&gt;Corvette
3&gt;DestroyerHeavy
4&gt;CruiserHeavy
5&gt;Dreadnought
6&gt;Baseship
7&gt;BaseshipHeavy: Andres had this question marked. I think there is plenty of space between base ship and worldship. As well as Devnullmod, ZeroAdunn's mod uses a ship of this type.
8&gt;WorldShipSmall
9&gt;WorldShipMedium
10&gt;WorldShipLarge
11&gt;ResourceShip: See number 12 for reason behind name change.
12&gt;ResourceStation: I think in Devnullmod this is actually a station rather than a ship, so I propose this name rather than ResourceShipLarge. Also, we have to consider mods other than the ones discussed here (Including future mods). They may well prefer to have their mining hulls as stations rather than ships.
13&gt;CarrierTiny
14&gt;CarrierMassive
15&gt;BaseOutpost
16&gt;ColonyShipLarge
17&gt;TransportTiny
18&gt;FighterHuge
19&gt;FighterMassive
20&gt;TroopInfantry: I think we should call it either TroopInfantry (For alphabetical reasons) or just Infantry (Most acurate description), rather than InfantryTroop as in Andres' post.
21&gt;TroopHuge
22&gt;StellarManipBarge: Andres had a question mark over this one. I think it should go in.

This 22-ship configuration will cover all the discussed mods nicely, and leave plenty of scope for other mods.

B&gt;Although most race-specific Neo pics will be generated by the program and therefore identical to standard pics (ie Phong_FighterHuge will be a copy of Phong_FighterLarge) I am assuming that we will create a full set of Neo Generics, for those who don't run the program. I think we should definitely throw in that Jraenar pic and a few others at random as a sort of "bonus"=-)

C&gt;Where should the NeoMaker utility put all of the extra files? I can appreciate the argument to leave default directories alone, but duplicating images into however many mod dirs is crazy.
How about putting them in the default directories but have an uninstall option?

D&gt;I love the name neostandard, but wasn't there a guy on the forum called Neo? Or am I imagining him? Don't think I've heard from him in a while.

E&gt;Distribution: So as I understand it the Neo-Standard will consist of a program (with supporting text & ini files) and maybe a few dozen pictures. That would make it what... half a meg when zipped? Should we put it in with each mod or distribute seperately, with each mod carrying just a neovehiclesize.txt or what?

F&gt;Program: S_J - you could incorporate your piratepatcher program into it - have it do 2 jobs at once.

G&gt;Pixelling: The Vikings would require another 12 images for the 22 ship configuration listed above. If we can agree a final configuration I'll get started on making the Vikings the first fully Neo-Standard compliant shipset as an example to everyone else=-) Then I'll need to talk nicely to Rollo about AIs for all these Neo compliant mods=-) I would have to share my time between that and work on the neo generics. Shouldn't be a problem.

------------------
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/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

[This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 20 November 2001).]

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

F&gt;
Well, I'll have to rewrite the patcher, since I lost the souce code months ago.

C&gt;
It would not be a problem to add a text file listing all of the images the program added. It would then be simple to remove them.

E&gt;
Sounds reasonable. We might want to compile a bunch of NVS.TXTs for each of the mods around here, as a starting point for modders, and a very simple update for gamers.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

9 of the 22 neo-generic pictures ready.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>12&gt;ResourceStation: I think in Devnullmod this is actually a station rather than a ship, so I propose this name rather than ResourceShipLarge. Also, we have to consider mods other than the ones discussed here (Including future mods). They may well prefer to have their mining hulls as stations rather than ships.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I checked DN vehicle size again, it's called mining base, but it's in a ship hull and has maxengines=2. It's a ship. A resource station picture sound good, maybe it can look like a base, or be a 23rd pic.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>15&gt;BaseOutpost<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I vote for Warstation as suicide_junkie suggested.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>20&gt;TroopInfantry: I think we should call it either TroopInfantry (For alphabetical reasons) or just Infantry (Most acurate description), rather than InfantryTroop as in Andres' post.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's what I was thinking about, thanks for correcting me.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>E&gt;Distribution: So as I understand it the Neo-Standard will consist of a program (with supporting text & ini files) and maybe a few dozen pictures. That would make it what... half a meg when zipped? Should we put it in with each mod or distribute seperately, with each mod carrying just a neovehiclesize.txt or what?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I propose creating a neo-standard package, including the program, whatever inis needed, generic and original shipset pics, and a neo-vehiclesizes for all mods discussed here. Maybe even a new and simple mod that just adds the new sizes.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
generic images ready
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yoink! That was quick!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
It's a ship. A resource station picture sound good, maybe it can look like a base, or be a 23rd pic.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm. OK. Personally I think 2 resource images is enough. I would vote for a ship and a station rather than 2 ships. Look at P&N, when that had resource hulls, he used one of each.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Warstation
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That gets my vote too.
I like the idea of an "exmaple" mod as well=-)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Lost source code
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's a shame=-( It was just an idea...


OK, I'm about to post an introduction / recap to this thread, then I'm going to start crossposting to some other threads, mailing pople and generally try to get some interest. After all the neo-standard won't b much good without some more shipset ppl.


------------------
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/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

This post is for anyone wondering what the hell this is about. Please correct me if anything here is wrong. It's also my way of getting my head around it=-)

First up I should point out that the neo-standard is nothing to do with Hadrian Aventine's neoverse or ZeroAdunn's neo-mod, although I'm hoping they'll both participate. The word "neo" just sounds cool, that's all=-)

Here's a brief explanation of what this thread is all about.
We are creating what we call (so far) the neo-standard, which is an expansion on Malfador's standard ship list (escort, frigate etc.) We want to include things like Massive fighters, Worldships and infantry. Modders can choose tp comply with the standard so that their mods will be compatible with a greater number of shipsets, and vice versa.

Here's a not so brief explanation of what this thread is all about.
A bunch of us have noticed that there are an awful lot of mods out there which use non-standard ships sizes in their vehiclesize.txt files. The trouble is that when adding new vehicle classes, modders are limited to 2 options:

A&gt; Create additional images for the generic shipset. The game defaults to these if a shipset doesn't have a particular ship image. Pirates and Nomads uses this method with it's battlemoon. The advantage is that shipsets creators can make race-specific images for the extra shipsizes. The drawback is that generic images tend to look out of place in the middle of another shipset.

B&gt; Different classes of ships share the same image. For example, in Devnull mod, both the frigate and corvette currently use the same image. Although these images fit in better than generics, the disadvantage is that you end up with two classes of ship looking exactly the same.

So we have come up with a new solution which should give the advantages of both options without the disadvantages:
First of all, we have identified those extra images which need to be added. We've done this by comparing Devnullmod (recently resurrected by GeoSchmoe), Andres Lescano's Star Wars mod, Ultimate Mod, Pirates and Nomads and Zero Adunn's Neomod.
We've come up with a list of around 20 extra images which should cover most of the probable additions to the vehiclesize.txt

This list, when finished, will be the basis of the neo-standard.

Obviously these are just images, and do not dictate what properties the actual ship has. For example, the Pirates and Nomads Battlemoon will use the same picture as Andres' Death Stars. They're not the same ship, but they look similar enough. Modders can use the images however they like, but we have tried to use unambiguous and descriptive names which will provide a rough guideline for modders and shipset creators alike, so that there will be a certain level of consistency.

Next, Andres and I will create generic images for all of the classes on the list. Modders will then be able to refer to non-standard filenames in the knowledge that they won't ever create a "file not found" error. This gives the advantages of option A above.

Now the clever bit: To avoid the disadvantages of option A, we copy and rename existing images: For example, Phong_Escort is copied to Phong_Scout and so on. This provides the advantages of Option B.

This will create something in the region of 400-500 extra images on a standard installation. Someone like Andres who has over 130 races installed would have up to 150 megs' worth of new data created.
Obviously no one wants to download all that, so S_J will write a cool little program to do all the work locally. After all, everything you need to create all those extra images is already on your computer.
If you still don't fancy having all that extra data filling up your hard drive, just don't run the program. Until the program is run, compliant mods won't require the extra images: Each compliant mod will supply 2 Versions of the vehiclesize.txt file, one using standard images and one using neo-standard. The program replaces the standard file for the neo-standard one.


The advantages of the Neo-standard are obvious:
1&gt; Shipset creators can create as many images for a shipset as they like. In theory, the program could be configured so that it can build a whole (but rather boring) shipset out of just one image. Obviously we want shipset creators to create more, rather than less than the old standard though.
2&gt; Shipsets designed for one specific mod (ie just enough images for Star Wars and nothing more) will suddenly be compatible, or at least partially compatible, with loads of mods.
3&gt; Mods with extra ship sizes will look prettier. By tapping into the Neo-standard, they will gain access to a host of shipsets with images that will work in their mod. At the same time, the Neo-Standard does not restrict a modders' freedom in anyway. They can use what they want to use and ignore the rest. They might neo-standard images alongside images which aren't part of *any* standard.


We welcome input and co-operation from any modders and shipset creators. This standard can only be only as good as the mods and shipsets that participate.

Thanks for your time=-)

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Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

20 new classes seems like a lot, but i like the idea. Heck once the list is finalized i'll try to upgrade the vandron and the hevordah to the new...i mean neo standard.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

This is very good idea. I will try to find some time to make new pics for Toron and Aquilaeian shipsets when the list is ready.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

Ok a couple more pics. Dogscog promises he'll help me complete the generic shipset, looks like we're going to have it complete soon.

We already have a set of 22 pictures if you want to start working on your shipsets. A few sizes may be added or removed but this is how it looks now.

1&gt;Scout - smaller than escort
2&gt;Corvette - between escort and frigate (or rename the frigate corvette and make a new frigate)
3&gt;DestroyerHeavy - between destroyer and light cruiser
4&gt;CruiserHeavy - between cruiser and battlecruiser
5&gt;DreadnoughtHeavy - between dreadnough and baseship
6&gt;Baseship - very big base sized ship
7&gt;BaseshipHeavy - even bigger ship
8&gt;WorldShipSmall - planet sized ship
9&gt;WorldShipMedium - bigger Version of worldship
10&gt;WorldShipLarge - even bigger Version of worldship
11&gt;ResourceShip - resource miner ship
12&gt;ResourceStation - resource miner station
13&gt;CarrierTiny - smaller carrier
14&gt;CarrierMassive - bigger carrier
15&gt;Warstation - base between battlestation and starbase
16&gt;ColonyShipLarge
17&gt;TransportTiny - smaller and probably faster transport
18&gt;FighterHuge - bigger fighter
19&gt;FighterMassive - even bigger fighter
20&gt;TroopInfantry - Human sized troop
21&gt;TroopHuge - very big troop
22&gt;StellarManipBarge - big weaponless ship

The Neo-Standard Picset needs a homepage. Updating what is in Dogscoff's web page could be a good start, then we could add the descriptions posted here, the generic pictures I'm making(like examples beside each size), and the finished package for download. If you want I can host it in KDY.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

ok thanks for the list. here are a couple of questions and comments
- why 3 classes of worldships i mean isn't one enough Why if you can destroy a planet with one size ship would you bother to build the bigger ones plus it would be easier to maks just one worldship pic
-why have a baseshipheavy if your gonna have world ships seeme like the same thing to me
- i can see having one more size of fighters but i think the massive fighter would be the same as the scout so either nix the scout or nix the massive fighter
- to me the transporttiny and carriertiny are pretty useless. i see the advantage of being a little faster but if your going to use fighters your not gonna use a tiny carrier and if you use troops same thing applies
- so i guess what i'm suggesting is getting rid of 7,8,9, and 10 and just making 1 worldship and getting rid of 13,17, and 19

only trying to make some suggestions that will compress the number of new pics we will have to make. I really think the neo-standard is cool but some of this stuff is a little overboard IMHO.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

I have to agree with chewey that 3 worldships is a bit too much (is that used by a mod? SW maybe?). I do think the baseshipheavy is a good idea, though. So from dreadnought to superdreadnought to baseship to baseshipheavy to worldship seems a good progression.
- about massive fighter vs. scout: they might not be much different in size, but one is a ship and the other is a unit.
- I do like the idea of smaller carriers, one for each level of fighters, I assume. IMHO the smallest carrier in the stock Version is too big, anyway. Hehe, it's a nice way to get heavy mounts early, though http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif.
- smaller and faster transports seem like a good idea, too.

So except for the three deathstars/battlemoons/whatever this all sounds very good.

But heck, what do I have to say? I am neither a modder nor a shipset maker http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/tongue.gif. Just do as you feel best. This sounds very good and promising http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

Rollo

edit:typo

[This message has been edited by Rollo (edited 21 November 2001).]

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

Six new images from baseship to battlemoon does seem like a lot, but it doesen't matter much to me.

We need to hear more from the pure gamers, other modders and shipset designers like Rollo.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.
 

About worldships, yes they’re used in the SW mod that isn’t a very popular mod.
I think it should be ok to make only 1, but there’s plenty of space between the 2000kt heavy baseship and the theoretical limit of 65535 kt.


Thanks to my brother insistence I’m about to resurrect the Ultimate Vehicle Size Mod.
Anyone here played with it? For those not familiar with this mod it adds a massive number of new hull sizes what gives a complete new scale to the game, but adds no new components.
60 normal ships from 75 to 40000 kt
20 carriers from 130 to 31400 kt
20 bases from 250 to 65000 kt
5 colony ships from 240 to 370 kt
20 transports from 150 to 23500 kt
10 fighters from 7 to 56 kt
10 satellites from 40 to 200 kt
10 mines from 5 to 100 kt
10 troops from 1 to 100 kt
35 weapon mounts used by different type of vehicles
Some tests show that AI can easily be patched to work in the mod.
Of course that I don’t want a different picture for each of these 165 hull sizes, but I’ll make it use the standard for the smallest ones. And for the biggest ones, well they won’t be used that much and it doesn’t really matter if a 15000 kt ship looks the same as a 35000 kt one, if it is an enemy you know you’re in trouble.