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Momentum 3 - Finished - sansanjuan/Marverni and odeoderok/Ulm win!
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Game summary: remove the most powerful EA nations from the mix and make changes to allow all players a chance at various SC summons.
Basic settings Age: EA Players: 8 Hosting: llamaserver Hosting interval: 24 hours up to turn 25, 48 hours up to turn 50, 72 hours from then on Mods: modified version of CBM 1.6 and EDM 1.1 (see changes below) Map: Land of Ethereal Squirrels with fixed starts HoF: 15 All other settings default Available nations I've enjoyed Burnsaber's Cripple Fight series of games that include a mix of nations without a HoF victory. In this game I've focused on one era and used my own judgement rather than win/loss stats in selecting the available nations. I should note that of course this is subjective; especially for nations that were on the bubble it's not too hard to argue that nation x should have been included and nation y should have been banned. But the main point is that the nations most clearly at the top of the EA pile have been removed from play. If you think I've allowed a nation that is too powerful then I encourage you to choose it and show me and the other players the mistake I made. :) So, here's the lineup of available nations (8 of 11 will be chosen): Abysia Agartha - ghoul31 Arcoscephale - Zeldor C'tis - Squirrelloid Ermor - Graeme Dice Kailasa Marverni - sansanjuan Pangaea Tir na n'Og - Valerius Ulm - odeoderok Yomi - 13lackGu4rd SC changes I've made some changes to SCs. Partly this is a rebalancing, but even more it's opening up SC options to everyone such that you'll have decent choices regardless of what type of gem income ends up being your strongest. Tarts The big change here is that tarts arrive as affliction free commanders. So, you *don't* need GoH or the Chalice to take advantage of them. Of course those things would be handy for healing injured tarts as well as other purposes - but they aren't necessary to summon them cost efficiently. Speaking of costs, tarts now cost 35 death gems, priced in line with other SC summons. Since they are all commanders there is no need for GoR. With tarts being open to all players, as well as the other SC options available, I removed the nerf to their HP introduced in CBM 1.6. Note: in order to make this work the way I wanted I had to copy one of the spells that summons a random commander from a predefined group (I ended up using Hinnom's Grigori summon). Since this spell summons from a group of 6 I had to drop one tart. I've removed the monstrum and made that a separate troop summon (tentatively Conj. 9, D6 caster, 12 gem cost). More importantly, since Grigori are unique summons each turn only six tarts can be summoned. Beyond that casters will receive a message that there was no answer to the summoning. That means this method doesn't scale well but with only 8 players and with tarts now costing 35 gems each I don't think we'll run into problems. If we occasionally do, well that's just a risk of summoning, similar to elemental royalty. Which brings us to... Elemental royalty I've always like the elemental royalty but felt they were somewhat underwhelming. So, I've given them boosts. First, they are non-unique. Note that this works just like the tart method described above, so each turn only 3 AQs, 3 WQs, 2 EKs, and 2 FKs can be summoned. As with tarts, the count resets each turn. Other boosts: AQ: HP 70, regen 10, recuperation, darkvision 100 WQ: HP 95, regen 10, recuperation, darkvision 100, Queen of Lakes has sailing EK: HP 240, regen 20, recuperation, darkvision 100 FK: HP 120 and 160, regen 10, recuperation, darkvision 100 As you can see these changes are intended to give the elemental royalty durability and the ability to operate on equal footing with undead/demons under darkness. Diversity summons Only a few changes here. Grendelkin: HP 240 --> 200, strength 38 --> 32, poor amphibian, CR 50, cost 40 --> 35 gems Granite Cyclops: HP 80 --> 120 Ember Lord: map move 3 (technically 2 + flying) Treant: cost 40 --> 35 gems Misc. changes Banned globals: Arcane Nexus, Astral Corruption, Burden of Time, Forge of the Ancients, Utterdark, Gift of Nature's Bounty Banned sites: The Desert Eye (Ench. 50), Conjurer's Cave (Conj. 30), Mount Chaining (Blood 40), Oak of Ages (Ench. 50), Summoning Circle (Blood 60), The Blood Rock (Blood 30), The Cedar Pillars (Ench. 30), The Ebony Circle (Conj. 30), The Mountain of Power (Evo./Ench. 30), The Ultimate Gateway (Conj. 50), The Water Solstice (Ench. 50), Throne of Enlightenment (Ench. 30). Well of Misery: moved to Evo. 8 Gift of Reason: reduced to 10 gems Blood magic: under other circumstances I'd be inclined to nerf blood more heavily but with the nation mix here I'll go easy. Soul contract cost increased to 65B15F, lifelong protection to 40B, jade knives eliminated, vampire lords cost 100B, summon vampires 43B. |
Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
sure, I'll try Yomi. been wanting to tr them out in MP for some time now and in a normal game Yomi is just too underwhelming...
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
Yeah, this is something I like about Cripple Fight-style games - it gives people a chance to play nations they like and not feel they're putting themselves at a disadvantage from the start.
I'm glad you chose Yomi - it will be nice to see Dai Oni have a chance to shine as the toughest recruitable units in the game. |
Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
Very attractive.:re:
But I have to skip because of having enough games.:o |
Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
No time for a new game right now, but I wanted to say 'Hi'. Interesting settings, I'll watch this one to see how it goes.
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
Hmm... pick better map, please? :)
I guess I can play small game - Arco, Ermor or Kailasa for me. Dunno which one. |
Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
i hope that map wraps around, otherwise it really is pretty terrible
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
well, this would be a great game to test your EA Aby guide FL ;)
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
Water Queens are already virtually invincible in water. I'm not sure they need buffing. Especially not regeneration, since they already have something like regen 40.
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
Anyway, I'll give C'tis a go.
TC should probably not be on this list. Hopefully no sporting player will select them. |
Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
Right, I forgot to mention that the map is optional! I've had this around for a while from when I batch generated a lot of maps. I like the fact that the water breaks up the map but it's true that the starts aren't even. So let's take that off the table. Any suggestions for a 12-15 prov/player map? I liked the Threelake map from CF 2 (and you'll notice some similarities to the map I had in mind for here) but I think the middle starts were definitely not as good as the corner starts. I think Streamlands has worked well in CF 3, though it has a few more water provinces than I had in mind.
Zeldor and Squirrelloid, I'll reserve spots for you. Psycho, sorry to hear you won't be back for a possible sweep of the Momentum games. FWIW, I did learn from Momentum 2 that late game you really need a decent amount of time so I'm not going to try to keep 48 hour hosting throughout as I had planned to do there. FL, hope you join as well - I think I gave Aby a nice little boost. Squirrelloid, I agree with you about WQs and thought about not giving them anything but the additional 10% regen doesn't actually matter much underwater since it is already so high - but it is a nice bonus if you want to bring the two aquatic ones on land, and I was hoping to make that more of an option for them. I also just realized there was no need to list recuperation since they already have it (and one already has darkvision). The sailing thing just seemed cool so I added it on last minute. |
Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
Also, I haven't posted the combined mod yet because I'll need the list of selected nations in order to set the tart summoning spells (and I also didn't add the banned sites yet since I remembered that at the last minute).
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
I actually like the earth cyclops, fwiw. I'd remove the Monstrum, since its the biggest let down. Maybe do what I did to it and give it a separate summons and clearmagic it. Because they make a fun troop but a really crappy commander (even with improved magic!).
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
I'm open to that if people prefer the E cyclops. If we go that route I'm thinking D4/5 casting requirement, maybe Conj. 7/8; not sure about gem cost or if HP should stay at the boosted level or go to CBM level (the former partly depends on the latter). I'd also reduce the slots again on the off chance they get GoRed.
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
Valerius:
I think I can play anything that is not Agartha. Anyone wants to pick a nation for me? :) I could win as Abysia again, but that'd be boring. I don't think their Warlocks need any boosts, they are good and with EDM you won't recruit many Anointeds. TC is indeed too strong to be in the mix. Abysia may be too, with those nations and boost. |
Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
Agartha
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
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As far as Aby goes, maybe I'm underestimating them. I know you won with them ... but they seem so one dimensional to me. How about if I reduce the extra random to 25%? Also, you asked for a random nation so I chose one: you will be playing Arco. Of course if you change your mind feel free to switch nations. :) |
Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
Sure, I can play Arco, unless someone really wants it :) All other nations [except Agartha] look fine enough. I can even play last unpicked one.
Abysia is not so one dimensional. Sure, big part of it is, but it's great at what it does. Burning Ones are one of the best sacreds around. Warlocks are great mages and give you blood and tough communions. And you get EDM for Zmeys, Ember Lords, etc. You can afford dormant rainbow with E9. And you get 120 free design points. My game was a bit weird thougj, I had Ultimate Gateway and I was fighting Lanka with blood40 site for victory. So insane amounts of summons on both sides. |
Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
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What I'm trying to balance is that we have two blood nations in the game. Pan has expensive, but recruit everywhere, mages. Aby has cap only, but cheap, mages. I'd like them be evenly matched when it comes to blood magic capabilities (of course if only one is chosen this won't matter). |
Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
Nobody is playing Ermor? Then I'll grab them.
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
The Earth Cyclops isn't that exciting, but he is still really nice as a generic grunt type of thug, and the extra earth is nice for the rituals, army buffs (army of gold/lead anyone?) and forgings.
The spirit is probably a better choice for removal than the earth cyclops, as the spirit has fixed paths, not particularly good paths, awful stats (8 defense!) and no feet slot for earth boots/winged boots, and is extremely slow moving in battle. So while the Earth Cyclops is superb flying raider, army buffer and generic thug, the spirit is more of a ... gnome lore caster, and inferior army buffer. |
Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
Valerius, Frozen Lama wrote a very nice guide on EA Abysia, showing how to turn away from their 1 trick pony image. I agree that EA Abysia is pretty strong, especially compared to the nation pool available, and yes I agree that TC doesn't belong here.
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
Due to popular demand the earth cyclops is back! I'm going to basically copy Squirrelloid's monstrum spell from his balance mod and we'll make that a separate troop summon (the only differences being 12 gem cost instead of 10 and 200 HP instead of 232).
Action, interesting comments on the spirit. I can't say I've used them all that much. On paper it seems like they might be decent for crowd control if they cast soul vortex. I could give them a HP or regen boost to make them more like the EK since I've always thought their HP were on the low side compared to other tarts. |
Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
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It also doesn't seem like there's much support for a boost for Aby so I'm leaning towards removing the boost I gave them... Anyway, thanks everyone for the feedback! |
Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
if anyone needs a boost its Agartha. But we have a volunteer as is =).
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
don't get me wrong, EA aby is not a strong nation by any means. they fit into this game just fine. they are for sure one of the weakest EA nations. me and zeldor have just shown recently that they *can* be played and turned into a good nation
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
Ok, based on the comments I've removed the change to Aby's warlocks.
As far as maps go, the main candidates I've come up with are Streamlands and Land of Ethereal Squirrels (both wraparound). Streamlands has played well in CF 3, while LoES will provide a nice average of 13 provs/player as well as 13 water provinces to fight over. |
Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
Valerius, sounds interesting; I'd join if I was not already at my game limit.
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
Hi, Aethyr. Sorry to hear that, but it is best to stick with game limits or turns go from being fun to a chore...
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
Ok, I've attached the mod to the first post. This will be the only mod you need active when creating your pretender since it incorporates CBM and EDM. Please let me know if you notice any errors.
A couple small things. I didn't consider that giving sailing to an aquatic unit let's them sail onto land and promptly die after fighting any battles. So I removed sailing from the two aquatic WQs (left it on the amphibious one). I also want to note that tarts will not have that annoying shattered soul attribute. Also, I gave all eligible nations tart summoning spells in case we get a last minute player or someone wants to change nations. The game is on the llamaserver and is called Momentum3. Currently I have the Streamlands map that was already on the llamaserver selected. I believe we used random starts in CF 3 and that went ok but I attached a sample of possible fixed starts to the first post, in case there's a preference for that. |
Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - send pretenders!
How about we aim for a Saturday start? So far we have two pretenders in.
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - send pretenders!
But did we pick a map? Do we have all players? Etc?
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - send pretenders!
Well, we've got six players. It would be nice to get another two but I don't want to hold up the game too long and people lose interest... But I changed the first post to indicate we are still recruiting.
As far as maps go, I was thinking either Streamlands or Land of Ethereal Squirrels. For six players Streamlands seems better. We can go with either random start locations or preset (see first post for a sample of preset locations). |
Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
Hi everybody,
I'm new to the forum, but have played 4 MP games with a group of friends. If you're still recruiting, I'd very much like to join with Ulm (or maybe Kailasa or Marverni, but most probably Ulm). -Otso |
Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting!
Welcome to the game, odeoderok! I will mark you down for Ulm for now but keep Squirrelloid's advice in mind and just let me know if you decide to switch nations.
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting! 1 player neede
I'll take that last slot. Whatever nation would be fit would be fine with me. I'm outclassed but enjoy learning as I'm crushed. ;)
ssj Sunday start ok? |
Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting! 1 player neede
hey sansanjuan,
looking at the nations left, we have Marveni, Kailasa, Abysia, and Pangaea. Pan and Aby are blood nations. Not only that, they're blood nations that make it inconvenient to really use that blood power. (EA Aby's blood mages are capital only, making it difficult to really start a blood economy. Pan's mages are expensive, making blood summons pricier than for other nations). The micromanagement involved in running a blood nation is also much higher than for other nations. Kailasa has pretty decent recruitable sacreds, good thuggable cap-only commanders, but is weak against archers. Marveni has an at-best average array of troop choices, but great mages (even if expensive). They can also blood sacrifice, although they have no recruitable hunters so breaking into blood is hard. I'd probably recommend one of Marveni or Kailasa for less experienced players, with Kailasa probably being the easier one to grok. But Abysia's early game is pretty straightforward, so if you're willing to take a stab at blood, Abysia is a good choice. (Frozenlama also just wrote a guide for them that might help, on the other forum). |
Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting! 1 player neede
Welcome, sansanjuan! I think a Sunday start is fine.
So now that we have 8 players we need to finalize a map and decide whether we want random or fixed start locations. Opinions? |
Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Closed, Sunday start
Well, consider Arco free too - I did not start making pretender yet :) I can play any nation except Agartha.
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Closed, Sunday start
Or forget it, I feel like making Arco pretender now :)
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Recruiting! 1 player neede
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Roger that. I'll take a peek tonight and let you know asap. |
Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Closed, Sunday start
ALL SHALL YIELD TO MARVERNI AND SON OF SHUNT!
Umm.. unless they don't want to... -ssj Will upload tomorrow |
Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Closed, Sunday start
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Ok, it looks like it will be a bloodless game! First post updated with final nation selections.
Also, I've attached some proposed start locations for Land of Ethereal Squirrels. Any opinions? |
Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Send pretenders!
It looks like around 8 provs per player. Didn't we want a normal game, just with weaker nations? We should play normal then at around 12-16 provs/player.
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Send pretenders!
We'll be using Land of Ethereal Squirrels, which has 103 land and 13 water (we have 8 players so that's about 14 provinces/player). I haven't uploaded it to the llamaserver yet because I wanted to wait in case there were any changes to my proposed start locations (see my previous post).
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Send pretenders!
Oh, looking at the attached image it looked like closer to 8/player :)
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Send pretenders!
I see what you mean - it does look like fewer than 14 provinces average.
BTW, since I don't yet have the map uploaded yet I have autostart off. I'll upload it in the next few hours and then activate autostart again. I just have this feeling that the moment I upload it I'll find an error or need to change a start position. :) |
Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Send pretenders!
oh yeah, pretender, um, let me dig that up, i have it here somewhere...
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Re: Momentum 3 - EA, CBM/EDM, SC changes, weaker nations - Send pretenders!
Three pretenders to go but I figured you guys were just going to send them in at the end of the weekend.
BTW, we are going to have a good pace on this game and it's always a plus to avoid roll-back debates. I try to check for postponement requests as close to hosting time as possible. But occasionally my last check will be 5-6 hours before hosting. Would anyone like to volunteer to be backup admin? Obviously it's a plus if you are on the forums fairly frequently. |
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