spotting when turning around your units
 

hi

i have notice that sometimes when you change the direction of one your unit towards one of the 6 sides of the hexagons, your unit can spot new ennemy unit it did not see in the previous ai's turn (and even in the same direction as it was originally facing).

is this normal?

can somebody explain this to me, and tell me where to find this in the manual?

since this does not cost any point of movement, could this be done automatically at the beginning of your turn?
because now i am doing this for every of my units and this does take quite a bit of (boring) time.

thanks!

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

Yes, it it.

I only do this with scouts and my frontal squads so it's not a problem.

You can do this also after successful rally. It gives you then a new chance to stop the enemy.

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

Yes - a look in a new direction is a search, and it is free.

The SP games have always been like this, turning costs nil points. Searching a direction is also free. If your tiger turret is facing 180 degrees from a Sherman who is pointing his gun at you, and you fire at him - the tiger turret whips round and gets the shot before the Sherman can reply.

Many players consider it gamey tactics to move a hex, spin round 360 degrees searching face by face, move a hex and repeat.

The game can only deduct whole move points - what is turning a turret a hex dir worth? a hull turn?.

I have long thought there should be some cost for searching and/or turning - or perhaps we could treat a turn as an op-fire trigger event (treat it just as a form of target movement)?. Sometimes let a facing enemy element get first shot if your barrel is facing too far away (90 degrees+?) Something to think about for this autumn's code work.

Andy

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

For infantry it's fine that it's free. A squad in combat tries to watch many directions and it has many men.
I don't like that feature for turretless vehicles (eg. StuH and StuG). Currently they don't suffer enough penalty comparing to tanks with turret.

I like your ideas. I think the penalty should be biggest for turretless vehicles and minimal for infantry.

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

But then any turn on movement will cost points as well... would be hard to code that... Maybe penalise turn larger than say 60 degrees only?
Might also change reactions of turretless vehicles to opfire - less quickly turning hulls and Stug's, allowing for better flanking ambushes?

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

There is no cumulative count of such turns - so a simple way to skip your suggestion would be to turn one face at a time, several times. Simpler (if I charge) to charge per face changed.
(each separate turn is a look in any case)

The one thing it would severely mess up is that move limit view option that I never use, but some folk do seem to love.

That it would do - since a hull turn would cost more points, most likely. Turret turns would still be free (no way to charge < 1 MP as uses integers), but we could introduce something like the present opfire at ATGM teams based on relative gun positioning & experience on a shot opportunity where the target has a line on the turret turnee. Hull turns would be more likely to lose the "quick draw".

Andy

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

This is very interesting.

If I understand you correctly, the possible changes are:

1. A change in hull facing could trigger op fire.

2. A change in hull facing could cost say 1 move point.

Therefore turret turns would probably be free, so in a tank you could chose to fire from your current hull facing and get the first shot (but perhaps expose weaker hull armour to return fire), or turn to face the enemy (lose 1 mp) and trigger op fire.

Of course Self Propelled Guns would have to pay the price of turning unless they happened to be facing the right direction.

For op-fire, could SP guns (that were facing away) just turn to face the enemy but not shoot for their first op-fire, and if they get a second op-fire they would actually fire?

But then if you engage an SP gun from two different directions it would keep re-facing but not shooting...just thinking out aloud.

Would facing changes cost mp for all units or just AFV? Though you may have to raise the mp for infantry from 6 to 7 if you want to keep them active.

Perhaps units like SP guns and ATk guns should only be able to op-fire in the direction they are facing; don't allow them to swivel except on the player's turn and then it costs 1 mp.

I could see that this would make facing far more important, and more realistic than the current SP situation.

I think it would be well worth sacrificing the 'move limit view' for facing penalties. But perhaps it could be left in as a guide to the maximum possible move if you didn't have to change facing.



Cross

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

And it can be done with existing controls. Using 'T' you turn only your turrer, L-click turns whole vehicle.

So the result would be silly. But maybe it can be limited to only one turn in opponents turn.

I am strongly convinced that it shouldn't affect infantry. I have seen movies with soldiers in hostile territory and they trying to keep their eyes all around. They can because they have many men, not just one or two view points in the vehicle with many dead fields.

It's also an idea.

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

[quote=Mobhack;755569 Hull turns would be more likely to lose the "quick draw".

Andy[/QUOTE]

I think this will bring a new (and welcome) aspect to the game. The limitations of the StuG-type AFV would be recognised.


John

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

hi guys

it appears that my initial question digs more deeper in the game that i firstly thought.

i too think that their should be some sort of penalty for turning around your units. perhaps not for infantry troops, but well for the others.

someone can confirm that in the original sp game, your AT guns could fire in the opponent's turn only in a restricted field of view? i believe to be so but i am not sure

francois

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

Andy most intresting proposition & if I understand correctly you have discounted using MP for facing changes rather are thinking on the lines of an exp check for facing changes.

A non turreted vehicle changing facing to opfire (or a turreted changing through say 120 degrees) would trigger a check for the other side to opfire so it may get off the first shot.
As Cross said could become gamey if all units get this chance but if its possible to just code so only the unit that triggered the turn gets the check it becomes a gun battle between those units.
This would certainly make a distinction between turreted & nonturreted vehicles/guns in that the moving unit might get off the first shot if a facing change is required.

Possibly even apply to other crewed weapons like MMGs as only one guy is watching out for the rear.

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

I agree that infantry should be one of the last considered for a facing penalty. But I wouldn't rule them out completely; it would depend how it played. But I suspect it would handicap them too much.

Regarding op-fire

Currently, I think units like ATk guns and SP guns facing 180deg away from the enemy can op-fire at them, but it's unlikely to happen until the enemy gets close (say under 500m? even though the enemy was spotted at >1000m) but op-fire can occur at much greater ranges.

So I think units facing the enemy will op-fire at much greater ranges than those facing away from the enemy. But once you get closer, SP guns and ATk guns will often swivel 180deg to engage different targets.

Facing penalties may prevent 180deg 'swivel and fire' for ATk guns, as moving causes them to re-setup and they could not fire until the next turn. And 'swivel and fire' would cause SP guns to be considered 'moving' so would they'd get an accuracy penalty. Both improvements in my mind.


Cross

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

Id be happy to just have to the penalty for turretless vehicles.

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

ditto, Runequester.

Consider an Allied tank coming across a StuG facing the other way. Welly on the pedal - loud noise and clouds of smoke before the StuG can point its gun and op-fire. The turreted vehicle should get a shot off first. StuGs and Panzerjagers were ambush weapons, but are not sufficiently penalised for this in the game.

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

Not quite as cut & dried as that in this game, yes if thats what happens - it comes across it but a more typical situation.
Somebody has it in sight say an infantry squad who miraculously manage to wave there arms & distract it making it turn its rear to the tank just before it appears.
Therefore as you have to much info/control only a chance, another one of those situations where you know/learn what to expect but dont bank on it.
Its what I love about this game you have worked towards creating an opening only to find inexplicably everyone misses & it all stalls or you get the most unlikely of kills elsewhere can you capitalise on it. No other game seems to capture the uncertainty & situations this throws you into, worryingly perhaps I have even been known to chastise my units verbaly or utter the odd common my son.

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

i have read somewhere than stug were one of the best tanks for the germans.
it is true that they were quite effective, but they were cheap too.

and in this game turretless tanks are not really cheap.

if a few penalties are added to these tanks, i think their point cost should reflect this as well.

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

Late-war, the Germans used StuGs in lieu of tanks as they were much cheaper and easier to manufacture than a turreted vehicle.

So, yes: if their real-life deficiencies should be modelled, so should their cost advantages in Reichsmarks vis a vis a tank on the same chassis.

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

Interesting thread on StuGs here on WW2 Talk -

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/weapons...ing-stugs.html

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

I'm going to parrot in on the Op-Fire portion of this thread...

If you are sitting in a Tiger I and a Sherman comes up on your 6 o'clock position, are you going to take the up to 30 seconds it takes to rotate your turret from 12 o'clock (assuming it is point forward) or are you going to pivot your tank?

Has anyone bothered to look into what the typical practice was during WWII? Most didn't have the high speed traverse that more modern tanks have now. Today, tanks can pivot and put the gun on target at the same time, thanks to stabilization. During WWII, they basically had to pick one or the other. I would think they would do a 180 degree pivot/turn put the front armor to the threat. Once you have your front armor to the threat, you then bring your gun on target and engage.

The enemy turning up directly behind you is an extreme example. Less extreme situations still raise the same question. Let's say on the flank. If you turn your turret and fire, everything is being bet on your gunner. Should the gunner miss, the enemy has a shot at the largest target profile possible: the side of your tank.

I guess the point of this is it seems having a turret during WWII is being considered as more of an advantage than it really was. What a turret did allow was engaging targets within the frontal arc of the vehicle without turning the vehicle. Non-turreted vehicles had about a 20 degree range (depending on the vehicle) where they could put the gun on target without having to turn. A turret also allowed the vehicle to position hull down. Non-turreted vehicles could not fire their main armament from a hull down position. The turret didn't really become a major advantage until post war stabilization of both the gun and turret, in conjunction with high speed traverse.

As far as ATGs go, it really is going to depend on the mount and size of the gun. Some of the heavy ATGs were re-tasked AA guns on a 360 degree mount, so they may turn very quickly. A true ATG design, smaller guns certainly can be turned faster than larger guns. Position is also important. It might be physically impossible to turn a 75mm ATG quickly if it is positioned in the woods.

With respect to the thread topic, IRL, you aren't going to turn your tanks, ATG, what have you, 360 degrees to check in every direction to look for targets. Your gunner is typically rotating the turret from fender to fender looking for targets in the frontal arc. Obviously, this is more limited if it is a non-turreted vehicle and less limited if it is an open topped vehicle. The driver, when he isn't focused on not putting the vehicle in a ditch will also be looking forward, as will the bow machine gunner, if present. That leaves the loader and tank commander responsible for the side and rear arcs. In general, the frontal arc is where the most attention and spotting ability takes place.

The same is true with other unit types as well. Infantry can rubber neck to check their flanks and rear, but will primarily be focused on their front. The thing with infantry is they can use their ears in addition to their eyes. It will help tell when vehicles are close by, but not necessarily provide enough information to engage with. Unless it is very quiet, they probably still need to see enemy ground troops. ATGs, field guns, crew served weapons, etc., should have the same abilities as infantry, spotting ability varying with the number of eyes that can look.

All this said, if a movement penalty is being considered for units that pivot/turn in place, that should be separated from simple sector search that don't really require the whole unit to be turned. Since a pivot/turn requires a right click to occur, how about something like a CTRL right click for just sector searches? Vehicles should be penalized for using this sector search method since they wouldn't be able to put all eyes on any sector other than the one in their frontal arc. Proper infantry support of vehicles will pretty much eliminate this as a liability, anyhow.

There are a couple of thoughts that come to mind with respect to pivot/turn movement point penalties. Both relate to the op-fire aspect of such a penalty. The first is which turn does such a penalty apply? Does the cost of the pivot/turn come out of the next turn's points or the last turn's points? Obviously, if it comes out of last turn’s movement points, some must be left over or the vehicle/ATG doesn't turn and op-fire. The second thought relates back to turret traverse speeds. This obviously would require research, but I would think that if a turret needs to traverse more than one hex right or left, it is likely the tank would have pivoted. I haven't seen many pictures or videos of real WWII footage where the tank guns were more than 45 degrees to the right or left of front center. Before anyone argues it did happen, the operative word was many. Yes, I have some some cranked as much as 90 degrees while engaging.

Well, that's enough rambling for now.

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

OTOH tanks which were photographed were usually not photographed in an ambush situation, but in a more "regular" combat, IOW not in a situation when seconds counted.

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

Interesting post Ray. Here's a couple of comments.

In real life, I'm not certain of the extent of the advantages of turrets over SP guns, but they had to be subtantial because tanks were a lot more expensive and difficult to manufacture, and the turret ring limited crew and gun space. Why all the extra trouble and expense for a minor advantage?

I do know that the 20 deg adjustment of a SP gun is small. That piece of pie is only 1/18 of the whole :D

A Tiger turret could cover 1/4 of the pie within 8 seconds.

We must also keep in mind that a typical game turn represents about 2 or 3 minutes, which allows even the slow Tiger turret to do a couple of rotations.

Adjusting aim by movement, on the battlefield, is probably a lot more difficult than we imagine. It may not be too hard for an experienced crew on a flat field, but shifting a 30+ ton SP gun in battlefield conditions when you are probably situated on a narrow road, or near trees, a ditch, hedge, building, low wall, embankment, stream, crater, fox hole, troops etc...must be difficult for the driver with limited vision.

Surely it's much easier to just traverse a turret in the direction of the enemy? Certainly trees and buildings can get in the way of a gun, particularly the long L70 or L71 guns (think Tiger in Kelly's Heroes :rolleyes:) but it's a lot less likely.

And any advantage of being able to adjust aim by movement, is also enjoyed by tanks just as much as SP guns. So at the end of the day, SPWW2 should give some sort of penalty to SP guns and/or advantage to turreted AFVs.

For op-fire I don't think the one move point - for SP guns having to turn to engage a target - should come from the last or the next turn. The fact that the SP gun had to move gives it an accuracy penalty, and that's the main issue/goal.

During your turn, your SP guns may have to spend MPs to turn, this will give you an accuracy penalty even if you only swivel your SP gun to engage a target, but remain in the same hex. But this also limits the SP gun from being able to swivel and engage targets in multiple directions.

That's just some of my thoughts anyway...



Cross

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

Anyone who really curious about any differences between a hull mounted gun and a turreted mounted gun can run a simple test with a line of assault guns and a line of turreted tanks all with guns facing 90 + degrees off a line of target tanks ( all target tanks should have their weapons turned off ) and record how many assault guns score hits on the first shot and how many tanks do. Repeat test as many times as you like but 100 shots from each type should give you the answer you need

Don

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

The main reason that I avoid stug-like things is that if they are immobilised, they can only fire at targets that present themselves in the hull arc. At least an immobilised tank can turn its turret (there are no turret jams in SP - and it would be incredibly hard to do so).

Andy

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

just to go back to the initial post about the free turns within your hex allowing to spot units

i just want to know if multiplying the turns around all the sides of your hexes multiply the number of chances to spot units, or do you get a single chance per enemy unit and per the unit you turn currenlty?

if so, it would be unfair. but i do not know how the game is coded...

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

Sorry if we've gone a bit off topic Francois. I'm sure someone will answer you.


Test

I did a quick test with StuG III's and Panzer IV's with identical 7.5cm gun.

I lined up a row of StuGs and panzers, alternating the SP guns and the tanks.

I had them all turned 90 deg away from the enemy, and then advanced enemy tanks until the German AFVs op-fired.

Then I reset those that fired at 90 deg again, and advanced enemy tanks until the Germans op-fired, then reset them at 90 deg etc.

The StuGs and panzers had an average experience of 68.8 and 69.2 respectively.

Results

The StuGs fired 56 times
The Panzers fired 59 times

The StuGs hit 10 times
The panzers hit 8 times

Conclusion

Based on my brief test there appears to be no difference between a StuG or panzers ability to op-fire, or to hit.

One - perhaps obvious - difference worth pointing out, is that the panzers only turned their turret towards to enemy, but the StuG obviously turned the whole vehicle towards the enemy. Therefore, if the enemy had returned fire, the panzer is disadvantaged over a StuG because the panzer is exposing it's weaker side armour.


Cross

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

Keep in mind the main point to my post was not oriented towards the accuracy of non-turreted gun or whether turret traverse or vehicle pivot/turn could be performed within the length of the turn. The question revolves around what was the actual practice used.

Undoubtedly, there were advantages to turreted vehicles. One of those advantages was the ability to engage a target without having to turn the vehicle. In most cases, this would be the preferred option. Turrets from roughly 1942 on were roomier, making the reloading process easier, increasing the rate of fire; a significant advantage over non-turreted vehicles and nicely reflected within the game. Andy brought up a nice point. Tanks can still engage targets if they have suffered a mobility kill. And as previously mentioned, a turret allows engaging from a hull down position.

Back to the question at hand, "What was the actual practice when an enemy threat appeared in a rear quadrant?" Presumably, such events didn't occur often, but they undoubtedly did once in a while. During the war, turret traverse was performed one of three ways that I know of: hand crank, electric motor and hydraulics. The method employed, plus the gear ratio and in some cases engine speed, determines how quickly a turret can be turned. Here are some speed values I've found for a 360 degree traverse:

Tiger I - 25 to 60 seconds
Tiger II - 19 seconds
Panther A - 15 seconds
Panther D - 60 seconds
Panther G - 18 seconds
T34/76 M1941 - 14 seconds
Sherman (most models) - 15 seconds
M10 GMC - ~120 seconds (hand crank)
M-26 - 24 seconds
Matilda II - 14 seconds

Most of these are late war models with higher turret traverse speeds. Tanks such as all Pz.Kpfw III versions don't list turret traverse speeds as they are listed as "manual", i.e. hand crank. Traverse speed is going to depend on the person working the crank, but this method is going to be much slower than electric or hydraulic traverse. Many early war vehicles only used hand cranks to traverse the turrets.

I'm not debating whether a turret can be brought on target during the course of a turn. During a turn, one could probably exit the tank, check the oil level and get back in the tank if they wanted to do so. The debate is related to the actual practice used. If an enemy vehicle appears in a rear quadrant and they are capable of destroying your tank, what do you do? Even with the fastest traverse time listed, waiting roughly 5 seconds for your turret to traverse 120 degrees might be too long if the enemy already is aiming in your direction.

This is why I said it would require research. Possibly, the situation was addressed in period training or documentation. Maybe information is only available through anecdotes. To me, it would seem possible that you could pivot/turn the vehicle quicker in some or most cases than it takes to turn your turret. Current US doctrine with respect to tank orientation from FM 17-15:

The word "can" in this situation is used because options are mission dependent. Under certain circumstances where you are advancing, you may not want to alter your axis of approach.

Anyhow, if changes to the op-fire routine are considered, some research will be required as a "one size fits all solution" isn't likely to be realistic.

Below are the sources I found referencing turret traverse speeds. They may or may not be accurate. I was able to confirm a 24 second traverse time for the Tiger I from video footage.

http://www.alanhamby.com/technical.shtml
http://www.wwiivehicles.com
http://afvdb.50megs.com/germany/pz5.html

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

This is definitely an Andy question. From personal experience, I don't know that turns beyond the first have been any less likely to spot enemy units than the first turn. However, I can't really confirm this as it would require my knowing that I didn't see something that was there, which is a contradiction :)

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

I think SP guns were often used as mobile ATk guns, so were placed in defensive or ambush situations.

Another problem with moving a hull to aim – that I didn’t mention earlier - is that it more easily gives away your position. I like Andy’s idea that hull swivels could result in op-fire.

SP guns (and ATk guns) could have op-fire reactions reduced, but only if it’s possible to reduce op-fire ability for flank and rear targets, as they should clearly not have to suffer reduced op-fire ability for frontal targets.

Another possibility is to not allow any hull direction (or ATk gun facing) changes during your opponents turn. It will change the game-play somewhat, but it may well be a good change.

This will leave SP-guns (turretless AFVs) and ATk guns far more vulnerable, and it will also make tanks more valuable, so it will have the desired effect. But it would probably mean the cost of ATk guns and SP-guns would have to be reduced. You’d get more ATk guns on the SPWW2 battlefield, but they’d be less effective. It also may cause SP-guns to be used in a more historic role as mobile ATk guns hidden in brush towards the rear.

EDIT: But this would only make them less powerful defensively (during your opponents turn) so I'd still make AFVs and ATk guns use MPs to change direction, and have facing changes prompt op-fire.

Just brainstorming...


Cross

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

RERomine: The T-34 turret traverse is for the usually broken electric system, right? ;)
As for the "One size fits all", treating hull turn as a movement would be OK IMO.

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

Big time on this one. If it is wet, you will throw a lot of mud. On the other hand, if conditions are very dry, it is unlikely you will be able to see out of the cloud of dust you kick up. This is more of an issue with a pivot (neutral steer) verses a turn (where you physically change position).

One thing about hull swivels triggering op-fire, if that occurs you almost have to provide a separate ability to do sector searches without a pivot/turn. This brings us back to the thread topic, more or less. Even as a separate ability, searching around will still be a tedious task.

In general, if an enemy unit ends up on your flank or rear, there are some tactical failures involved. If you are advancing, you've left your flanks/rear exposed by either out running supporting units of they have just been destroyed. On the defense, flank units have either been destroyed or even worse, the flank has been left open. In all such cases, you should be aware of the risk and adjust appropriately.

One final thought. If an enemy unit is seen on your flank or rear during your movement phase, what do you typically do if you decide to fire at it? Personally, I orient my front armor to the threat (well, about 15 degrees off straight on) and then fire. This is in case I miss and it returns fire. If this is what we do during our movement phase, why would we do something different during op-fire?

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

You wouldn't have to provide a separate search. Not having a separate search may model the limited search ability of a single man with his head above the turret, or men peering through slits/periscopes. Forcing armour to rely more on infantry for spotting may not be a bad thing.


I agree. Well if nothing else changes, perhaps tanks should also be turning their hulls when shooting op-fire so they at least get the same benefit that the 'lesser' sp-guns currently get.

However, if hull swivels were to trigger op-fire, then one advantage of a tank is that you could choose to skip the hull swivel, just turn the turret and fire. Your shot may itself cause op-fire, but at least you get a shot in first, with a hull swivel triggered op-fire, the enemy gets a shot before you.


Cross

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

Update

Neutral steering wasn't as common in WWII AFVs as I expected. For the Germans, Tigers and maybe Panthers and that was about it. It could be fairly common with British build AFVs and maybe not even used by US AFVs during WWII.

This means for those unfortunates without a transmission that allows one track to go forward and the other to go backwards at the same time, to do a 180 degree change in direction they have to physically move.

Given this information, any change in the code might want to classify any change in hull facing as a move, unless the vehicle was capable of neutral steering. It would require another column in the database, however :eek:

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

There are still the problems you noted - I would say that neutral steer has the only advantage that you can turn on spot, but still you throw off your aim, kick up dust etc. - so still the enemy gets the shot.
I would say details like this can be easily overlooked with a "one size fits all" hull move = movement.
Then it might require right-click on turreted vehicle meaning just turret move and say shift+RC (or 2nd RC in the same direction) hull move?
Would again up the value of turreted vehicle a bit, even in defense (you can sector search without turning the vehicle).

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

many interesting posts fror various authors.

my own conclusion is that something could be added to take into account all of this, that would surely improve the gameplay.

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

This was answered before I think, something like every time a unit turns its a new check. So depending on die rolls it could do better or worse.

A penalty could I suppose be added to subsequent checks but how? You can turn 1 faceing without penalty? it would have to be % based not a set number poor quality units are bad enough anyway & a set number would penalise them even more. As said I hardly turn any units only if I am fairly sure somethings out there. But often when I do I want to move him fire with others then spin him as he is the closest undetected unit.
If winning means that much my opponent wants to spin every unit round he can I wont know but how time consuming & boring is that. One of the things about this game is nice interface & quick speed of play the only thing that takes time is deciding what to do.
I have no idea if it is the case but it feels like units focus there attention on an area where fire comes from becoming more likely to see other units in that area. Perhaps this is tied into it turning slightly though dont think so but would not like to lose this it feels right.

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

imp, if you are right, i think it is unfair and some people could try to cheat by getting an undecent large number of trials in some critical area.

i have lost many tanks due to size 0 infantry troops where there was intense fighting, and if you are correct, i will be ready to spin my troops in the same hexes dozens of times to be sure to not loose tanks by the same way any longer.

since i discovered that you can freely spot enemy troops when turning around within your hexes, i am already doing this at least one time in important areas, and it does not take so much time.

i do not know how you play, but in my games always appear many times intense fighting involving many troops, and i spend much more time in thinking about what to do and in what order than clicking with my mouse.

so checking with an elite scout dozens of time in the same hex just to discover new troops is NOT time consuming for me.

more and more i am thinking that something has to be added to the game to prevent such abuse of the game (i.e. unlimited free actions).

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

I'm not sure it is really unfair, since everyone has the ability to do the same thing. If one side has an edge in troop numbers, they might be at a disadvantage in experience. A more experienced unit can spot better than an inexperienced one. When you boil it down, however, the more eyes you have searching, the more likely you are of spotting the enemy. I don't see anything unfair here.

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

you do not understand the problem roremine

if imp is right, and i am not sure of this, a single unit get multiple chances to spot

assume a given infantry troop has a probabiliy of 10% to discover infantry troops, and 50% of bigger sized units PER TRY.

then simply by cliking several times on all the sides of a given hex, you raise all the probabilities to 100%

because you get multiple chances...

whatever the correct numbers, by clicking several times, you are guaranteed to discover all enemy units whatever their cover, exp, size, and so on...

i do not think this is fair. i think this is pure cheating and totally against the spirit of this game. and i am quite sure that some players already use this.

IF imp is right...

contrarily the situation you describe corresponds to the case a single unit gets a single chance to spot by hex. everything is fair, if you get more troops, you get more chances, balanced by the exp, of course.

this is the correct game.

the question is that, do you get multiple chances to spot by unit and by hex?

edit: or more exactly, do you get FREE multiple chances to spot?

because if this is free, players will try numerous times.

and we fall again in the second big question, if their is a price to turn your units in the same hex. because if their is a price, you cannot get multiple chances (or less)...

(except for units that the player does not intend to do anything else than spotting, but then to solve that problems we have to think together i guess)

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

Pretty sure he does & %s do not stack up that way you would have to do it loads of times to get near to 100%. Mobhack obviosly has this on his to do list & if he feels its justified/fixable might change it discussing further wont change anything.
The only "person" who suffers is the AI as it does not do it but as a benchmark I am guessing most people use it less in a whole game than you do in a turn so for the standard player its not really an issue.

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

I think that turning to the original sector again is not joined by another search chesk unless something happened in the meantime (rally event, fire event etc).

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

how do you know what i am doing currently?

until up now i never spinned my troops in the same hexes. until andy told me it was as classical tactic.

now i am experimenting, and asking some details.

do you remember that i asked about this to be done automatically at the beginning of your turn?

if spinning troops in the same hex is a classical tactic, i am pretty sure that there are players, how many i do not know, but they exist, and they abuse the game

now if the designers of this game say that this is a real issue, but it would be too complex to solve for only a minority of players, i will understand that.

however i do not understand personnal attacks

and finally, roremine and others have raise the link between this issue and the difference about how react turretless tanks versus non turretless tanks

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

I can't honestly say I've paid attention to whether or not I've spotted units on second and subsequent facing changes, so I don't know if you spot new units after the first turn. Even if I have, I can't say that there isn't a penalty on searches after the first facing change in a turn.

Given the nature of the game, there are certain aspects that are unrealistic with respect to searching/sighting. Being a turn based game, unless a unit ends its turn out in the open or a move triggers op-fire, it could duck from cover to cover and remain unseen until it is on top of a unit. Even if a tank were to approach via a completely covered or concealed route until it was 2 hexes away, in reality, you would probably know it was there unless the battle is raging in its full glory. Tanks make a lot of noise, so even if unseen, you would know something is there. Given those two examples of deviations from reality, it is possible to think multiple turn searching as compensation. This, in conjunction with the everyone knows all from the top down view.

In general, I agree with you francois. Units will primarily focus their attention in the direction they are looking and any rubber necking that occurs will be more of a cursory check of a sector than the thorough monitoring of the area they are facing. I don't make a point of turning all my units until they are in the thick of battle when they would be searching for targets to engage. Before this occurs, I depend on my original deployment to cover all sectors and logical avenues of approach. Once the fighting starts, I will turn and search with units near the point of contact because I have seen enemy units once I've turned. As mentioned, I don't recall if these are turns/searches after the first one or not.

I think we've all said, including myself, that changes in direction of leg units should be free. Giving it more thought, if the code is changed, maybe it should apply to them as well. If an infantry squad turns to their rear quadrant and spots a threat, more than likely, they are going to redeploy to meet that threat. Basically, they have figured out they are on the wrong side of the tree, rock, house, etc. In their original position, they have sought out the best cover and concealment available for a single direction. What covers and/or conceals you from one direction and allows line of sight, may provide none from another. One spot in a 50m hex isn't likely to provide cover, concealment and LOS from all directions at the same time, even a house. The soldier would have to quickly find suitable position facing in another direction. In a house, it would be going to a different window. Given infantry only moves so fast, a movement penalty should apply here as well.

Given all that and what I found out about neutral steering, if a movement penalty is applied for changing directions (hull direction with turreted vehicles) in the same hex, I would apply it to all units except possibly size 0 infantry. I would consider excluding size 0 infantry because it they are small and simply turning around may be adequate. A squad would have to redeploy facing the new direction. During op-fire vehicles with fast turrets or 360 mount weapons engage with without turning their hull. Some distinction would have to be made between fast and slow turrets, but the M-10 GMC would fall into the latter category.

Movement penalty could be taken from unused movement points from the previous turn during op-fire and current movement points if player movement phase. This is just my preference. It would force the player to decide between covering maximum distance or leaving maneuver points for op-fire turns if needed. Taking points from the next movement phase requires no tactical thought. If a unit physically changes hexes, no additional movement penalties apply for direction changes made in the player movement phase. Since the unit has physically moved, it might just be a matter of deciding how you want it faced once it gets to its final hex. Turning/searching before the move would incur a movement penalty. A lot of people want to make sure the coast is clear before they move, but this would take time, thus the movement penalty.

This is just my opinion at the moment of how I would code changes, based on about an hour of thought. More thought or more knowledge about the code might change my opinion. From the coding perspective, some things might sound good, but not be practical. I honestly don't know how Don and Andy have financially supported this product as long as they have, but not really any of my business.

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

I dont just rembered you mentioning spining dozens of times hence the assumption.
Not a personal attack just stating its already being looked at so unless you can think of something new to bring to the table its already been covered.

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

ok imp,

perhaps my post was too aggressive too. i am not a native english speaker (you should have noticed that already!), and what i write sometimes overshoots my mind .

in fact i did not get the time to play a single turn since more than one week. what i am saying through my posts is entirely based on what i discovered a few weeks ago. i remember that turning your troops in an hex does not take too much time.

you are right when you say that it would take a long time to reach high level of detection.


now roremine, thanks again for your post. very interesting, and you try to link the game to the reality to deduce improvements.
very nice again.

since we start to think about the code, now only don and andy can provide a true answer. we just have to wait!

Re: spotting when turning around your units
 

No problems I can be a bit short sometimes when typing rather than speaking.
When you get more time we can do a PBEM if you want, happy to discuss the game as we play to if you want.