Unique Mod Idea: would you play it?
 

After having read this Sentinel SF book, I was thinking that the basic physics of that would be cool to put into SE4.

Basically the premise is that there is "Quantum Weather", and if your planet happens to pass through the equivalent of a cold front, the physics in local space changes such that technology dosen't work (at all, or as well, depending on how cold)
Similarily, magic was also affected.

So in the story, Earth was inside a strong magic/low tech area until a few thousand years ago, then passed through into a no-magic, medium-low tech, where we find ourselves today.

To convert this to SE4, we'd have to have the physics work the same throughout the SE4 playing field, and changes would occur to the whole area simultaneously.
But, we could have a game where the properties of every object change weekly.
Those players with Fate shrines, Events predictors, or a new normal tech facility (longrange quantum state detector/ weather forecast center) would have some advance notice of what the next week's physics will be like.

Between weeks, some of the possible changes would be:
- Strength of materials: (hitpoints and energy weapons weakened, maintenance costs rise)
- Energy Field Diffusion rate (speed of light?): Shields become weaker, supply usage of all things rises, energy weapons lose power at range.
- Vaccuum friction: Supply usage of engines rises, Engines per move rises.
- Maximum useful tech: The highest tech weapons become useless more often than the low tech ones. You may be reduced to using only DUC's or ramming with ion engines if it gets really bad.
- Maximum useful "magic": same as above, applies mainly to psychic, temporal, religious techs.

There could be some neat situations, where you attack at just the right moment, when your enemy's WMGs and shields stop working, and you take 'em down with DUC frigates. Or the opposite way, you build some big ships that don't work, but then once the tech barometer rises again, you catch your enemy using only weak low-tech stuff.
In both cases, you've gotta hope that the enemy dosen't strike while your main forces are useless.

It would certainly break up stalemates, and provide for some creative strategies and tactics.
Whoever can adapt to the next major change in physics will have a definite advantage.


Suggestions & Comments?

Re: Unique Mod Idea: would you play it?
 

Interesting, but I can't see how you'd impliment it..

Phoenix-D

Re: Unique Mod Idea: would you play it?
 

Sounds good, but how would you implement something like this? I've always thought that the physics tech should be much larger. like 12+ levels. What we get now at 1st and 2nd should be more like 3rd and 5th. That way, physics would become more important, as it should. A lot of higher levels of tech would then require it.

As an example, lv 10 propulsion and lv 5 physics would be needed for WMG. That way, someone could have quantum engines but not have WMG. lv 3 for Rippers, lv 4 for Incinerators, etc.

Nick (bearclaw)

------------------
"You don't know the Power of the Dark Side. I must obey my Master"

Re: Unique Mod Idea: would you play it?
 

Implementation;

would the game work correctly if you swapped out all the components files but kept the items in the same order?
I think it would... the game records that a ship has 3 of component type 123, then when it needs to it goes into the component file and looks at entry 123 to see what it does. Am I correct?

I think it might. Then you can set up an out-of-game file manager to randomly copy a new file, or portion of a file, over it.

Think; set up a couple of "dummy fields" in a Fate shrine. Allow this program to overwrite the "Ability x Descr" in the current data file with "Omens indicate a shift in material properties some time within the next 3 cycles".
Players could consult their shrines to get a prediction.

To summarize:

Have a seperate components.txt, facilities.txt and maybe others...
Have copies of the files, with altered stats for each item, but all items kept in the same order. Copies for Low-Materials, High-Magic, etc...
Write a program to randomly determine future changes.
Get this program to write over descriptive text for various facilities and components as forewarning.
When the change occours, between turns, the program over-writes the data files with data from the various copies.

In special particular, the Events file could be changed. Beware multi-turn events though...

I think this would only work in a pbm game, ie the game has to be shut down between turns for it to work (the game reads data files on load, not on the fly, I think... even if not theres a lot that could go wrong)

I was thinking about magic as part of my modding, a while back, and decided that various Spells would best be represented by Intel Operations. Others by technology, which is one reason why I wanted to have one-shot components (but this does not seem to be possible)

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I think I described that badly.

What I meant is this :

Have, for example, a components.txt file.

Copy it as HighMagicComponents.txt

In this file, alter the properties of any components as required... but do not add or subtract any items, nor change their positions within the file, or component sizes.

When the time comes to swtich to High Magic , the program (custom written) will copy HighMagicComponents.txt to Components.txt
Now, when the next turn is played, all the properties of items will change too.

You would also have components.txt files for the other various "states". These would be copied over as described at the appropriate time.

Not just components of course; almost any data file could be affected.


The point about the Fate Shrines (or whatever facilities/components are used) is that players can be given advance warning, by adding a do-nothing ability to those items, and changing the textual description of that ability.


[This message has been edited by Mark Walton (edited 22 November 2001).]

Re: Unique Mod Idea: would you play it?
 

We must be entering a high-magic zone, cause you've just described exactly how I was thinking of implementing it.
If the PBW people were not too put off about it, I would have them change the data files every sunday or monday.
I was thinking of manually generating the altered files, so it would be easier to make pattern changes like I mentioned below.

I was not really concerned about implementation, more playability. How would you feel about having your WMG dreadnaughts suddenly become impotent, and never being at the peak of technology.
It would be like the price is right: the highest tech without going over is the winner http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif and you can only guess at what the right tech level is going to be next week.

Re: Unique Mod Idea: would you play it?
 

Hey that wasn't magic, it was my Neural Modding Net.

Thinking about it, I would probably find the game frustrating at first. In fact I might just decide to stick to low-tech weapons, and wait.

But, I feel that there's too much of a random element. The game will be won or lost on who guesses best... although there may be strategies which can be employed, will players get over that initial hurdle and play a 2nd / 3rd game to find out?

Re: Unique Mod Idea: would you play it?
 

This stuff sounds fun but would it work with the new 'anti-cheat' stuff added in the latest patch? The files in the Data folder must match with the files in the Data folder when the game was created by the host. This is to prevent 'modding' mid-game. Found this out in my latest PBW game when people tried to play without the new CompEnhancement.txt file I supplied.

Re: Unique Mod Idea: would you play it?
 

"The files in the Data folder must match with the files in the Data folder when the game was created by the host."

Not needed IMO..only the host could pull this cheat, it would effect EVERYONE, not just the host, and changing it slammed the door shut to a number of interesting mod and scenerios..

Phoenix-D

Re: Unique Mod Idea: would you play it?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This stuff sounds fun but would it work with the new 'anti-cheat' stuff added in the latest patch? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>When the PBW host updates to the next week's data files, everybody would have to download them before they take their next turn.

You've all see that it is perfectly OK for the PBW guys to upgrade the game between mod Versions, as long as everybody is on the same page, it works.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But, I feel that there's too much of a random element. The game will be won or lost on who guesses best... although there may be strategies which can be employed, will players get over that initial hurdle and play a 2nd / 3rd game to find out?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>For the most part, it would be gradual, continuous changes. Plus, there will be a normal-tech weather forecast facility. Everybody can see what's coming in the near future once they've got the technology to do so (you wouldn't even have to actually build the facility, just look at it's stats)

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 23 November 2001).]

Re: Unique Mod Idea: would you play it?
 

I think this is a great idea! I think a big part of the strategy would be to determine how much of your fleet to go high-tech (which may work only occasionally) and how much for low-tech (which should work most of the time)....

Question, though: would there a circumstance arising where techs would become completely unavailable moving from a high-tech to a low-tech zone? I'm thinking specifically of ship construction, like if up to Battlecruisers are available, and I research and build Battelcruisers, and then suddenly only Destroyers are available, then what happens to my ships? Or is this a scenario that just wouldn't come up?

Quikngruvn

Re: Unique Mod Idea: would you play it?
 

This sounds very, very interesting. I would definately want in on it. Oh, wait. Assuming I have the time, of coarse! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

As to the ship tech question, In my opinion, the ships you currently have built would work, but any you have in your build queue would be lost, and you wouldn't be able to build more until the tech barometer rose above Battlecruiser again.

On second thought, that might be hard to implement. The only way I can see this working would be to have the techtree data file (or whatever it's called) changed along with the components.txt. (And the facilities.txt? Suddenly your research centers go from cranking out 913 research points to 100? Ouch! Shipyards construction rate crashes? Bigger ouch!!) But does anyone know what would happen when the tech tree changes and a tech you have researched no longer exists? Will the research level stay, but you can't use it's components/facilities; or will you have to research that tech level all over again when it comes back? Having to re-research would _SUCK_!

Re: Unique Mod Idea: would you play it?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>But does anyone know what would happen when the tech tree changes and a tech you have researched no longer exists?<hr></blockquote>I would expect the savegame to fail to load.

I only plan to change the operation of the components& facilities, and, if possible, the research cost of the techs that are "too high-tech".
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Question, though: would there a circumstance arising where techs would become completely unavailable moving from a high-tech to a low-tech zone? I'm thinking specifically of ship construction, like if up to Battlecruisers are available, and I research and build Battelcruisers, and then suddenly only Destroyers are available, then what happens to my ships? Or is this a scenario that just wouldn't come up?<hr></blockquote>No components/hulls/facilities can be removed. At worst, I'd have the maintenance cost of the superlarge ships go up. You'd have to get those ships mothballed until the tech rises again.
Perhaps something like 100% more maintenance for each step above the current tech limit.
In that case your battlecruiser would cost 4x normal maintenance.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Will the research level stay, but you can't use it's components/facilities<hr></blockquote>The research level will stay, and you CAN use the components & facilities. Weapons that are too high-tech will simply do zero damage, and the borderline objects will have reduced effectiveness in some way. Shields could be given a large negative regeneration ability as well as lower hitpoints. Engines per move on ships could increase.
The components will still be legal, and the same size, they just won't do much until the tech rises again.


Q: Would there be any point in considering PPB1 lower tech than PPB5? They'd still be very close, but there could be a situation where PPB 1 would work when the 5's dont.

[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>

Re: Unique Mod Idea: would you play it?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
Q: Would there be any point in considering PPB1 lower tech than PPB5? They'd still be very close, but there could be a situation where PPB 1 would work when the 5's dont.

[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ][/QB]<hr></blockquote>

Depends partly on how many sets of files you want to have.
Personally I would have thought that if that type of tech no longer works, then it no longer works on any tech level.

Re: Unique Mod Idea: would you play it?
 

LOL! What a great thread! I wish I'd started reading it earlier:

"And now for next week's physics report:
In the western part of the galaxy, we can expect the speed of light to remain constant, but there's a fast front moving slowly towards the East, so if you're planning any interstellar travel in that area, make sure you leave soon or you might arrive back home before you left. Remember that the ratio between mass and energy will also be affected, so if you're trying to lose weight, a trip to the east of the galaxy could prove beneficial.

The wavelengths of visible light will be fluctuating in northern regions this weekend, so make sure you have your sunblock on, and absolute zero is set to drop by about 30 degrees on Sunday, so watch out for any unusual meltings.

Finally, we're expecting a galaxy- wide alteration in the value of pi, so don't be surprised if your home planet or any other cirular objects suddenly change in size."

*dogscoff hides under his desk as people throw physics textbooks at him...

Re: Unique Mod Idea: would you play it?
 

dogscoff, ROTFLMAO http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

What a great idea. That would be a bLast to play http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif .
I *think* it must be done under an older (1.41) Version of SE4, though. I changed something in the components.txt in a mod for testing purposes. After I did that I wanted to continue the game (sim move, btw) and I got a message that my data does not match the host (me) data, when the game was created. Seems to me that the "cheat prevent thingie" in 1.49 compares the data upon game creation, not the current data of the host.
Just wanted to let you know. Still a great idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Rollo

Re: Unique Mod Idea: would you play it?
 

Ok, let me say that I think the idea in general is great. It could be very interesting to play.

It's also certainly feasable to do. There is no technical reason that we couldn't update your mod every week with whatever changes you want.

The only problem is the time factor. It's not "hard" to make changes to the PBW server, but it does take some time. Which we don't all have an abundance of.

What I would like to suggest, without being a wet blanket on the whole idea, is that you put the game on PBW to handle the turn receiving and distrobution, and set it to "No Automatic Turns", and then download and run the turn files off line on your own pc.

I can tell you from my own experience I ran a couple ver 1.35 games this way and it was not really difficult once I did a few turns and became comfortable with the process. And I also ran PBEM games the old fashioned way and PBW, even with processing the turns offline, is way easier.

You don't have to worry about lost files. If they don't get the game file they can just download it again. They get instant confirmation that there turn has been submitted. And you can have the turn timer will still send reminders if they are the getting close to the limit, or if they are one of the Last players to upload.

And this way you have no limit to the nubmer of changes to you mod. You could change it after every turn if you want.

And this even has one small advantage over regular PBW games. If someone submits the wrong turn or it gets garbled in transmission, the host will get an error and can notify the player and have them send a new turn.

And your friendly neigborhood PBW admin team doesn't get run so hard. (My favorite part. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

Geoschmo
PBW Admin Team