SP with better Graphics?
 

I wonder if it would be possible to take the SPWW2 gameplay codes and give them a new visualization. Thinking about state of the art graphics and nice zooming and scrolling. I sometimes find it hart to distinguish my infantry from forests or to define different levels of altitude without hovering over each hex or using the line of sight for giving hints. Other tactical wargames show better solutions for these problems, however none reaches the depth of spww2.

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

Hello Antomn. I can not answer whether they can improve the graphics, that will make developers. But I can tell you to identify forest troops start your id tags in the preferences. Over time you can get a rough idea of the heights of the land and if not when you hover your mouse over a hexagon tells you the height at the top of the screen.
Greetings

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

Yes right, this is how one can help himself a little bit. In the past I have been playing different versions of steel panther once in a while. I am just wondering, concering the superior game algorithm which the game contains, there was never an attempt to put the playablility (graphics, scrolling, zooming) onto the next level. - Is it due to some kind of code inherent impossibilies or because it was just not done?

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

I do not know. Perhaps as this game comes from a very old game has its limitations but do not really know. The graphics are not bad for me. Personally I think it gives a more serious. I've seen other games were changed to 3D graphics and lost character.
What I do know is that I wish I could change the zoom with the mouse wheel.;):)

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

Dont understand what you mean its a 2D grapics game & looks fine to me. Scrolling works fine as does zooming & want fixed not variable zooming as you get a feel for distances after a while. With variable zoom you probably never would but set levels it does not take long for your brain to judge distances fairly well.

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

Yes right, zooming with the mouse wheel would be more conviended than searching with the cursor the sensitive areas (I play winspww2 in windows; otherwise the side rations will be seriously distored).
Receiving and sending PBEM files from out of the game would be fine as well.

Concerning the graphics. I agree that the graphics give some kind of old school feeling. Speaking from my point of view, I value better graphics higher than that feeling. Especially if the classic feelings comes with hard to distinguish units.
Other games, for instead the Close Combat series, have basically the same top-down view, but the graphics (and also in animations) are way better (of course, it is a new development game).

I can completely understand if players are fine with the classic feel of steel panthers. However I want to point out that there is also a market for a game using the steel panther algorithms and an updated surface and handling.

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

I think everything can be improved. We see that this game has surpassed his predecessors. I think it is good to take time for improvements to be discerning. Would have to see that developers think. With regard to what you say about the graphics, they can not see some units in woodlands, it is not as close to reality? It is a great way to see how the camouflage. In these cases active flags to differentiate my units.
Greetings

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

I have to agree with what Antonm says. I think there is a large (for a niche market) segment of current, ex (and potential future players) of Steel Panthers (original, winsp and spwaw)waiting for a modern interface, updated 2d graphics and maps and support for wide screen, true color displays. It is a topic that keeps being posted every few months on every steel panthers forum I follow. It is my favorite game, as is...but I would love to see it updated.

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

I am going to guess/speculate here as my programing skill is minimal at best.

Adding adjusting zoom level by mouse wheel is doable the rest is in your dreams & dont fully understand or maybe I am old school:)

Scale is 50m a hex you are not going to get a lot of detail at that level & changing that or how it works pretty much means a new game.
Think about it lets add a new terrain type, brush would be nice lets do the easy bit.
Replace say one of the pavements with it as have 3 types & use is fairly rare, define its properties & do some graphics for the file simples. Now the fun starts map generator has to know how & when to use it for the hundreds of permetations of battles you can create, AI probably has to have an idea about it to etc.
Thats just one terrain type not changing the whole shebang.

On your comment about find it hard to distinguish stuff really??
Terrain - I would describe the graphics as crisp & clear as opposed to washy, this makes recognising terrain easy on the whole.
Possible exceptions being complicated rolling ground with features might need to mouse over & verify a slope & buildings if you really want to know if they are stone or wood. Some are obvious others arent & this pretty much shows the more variety the harder it is to recognise stuff.
Units - As they are based on what they look like dont really understand this I have little trouble distinguishing diffrent units with the exeption of some vehicles which are the same but mount diffrent armament. In some cases they have a slighly diffrent camo which helps distinguish but in others like armed halftracks I either have to zoom in to see the gun or take the quick option & mouse over. I play most of the game at mid zoom levels by the way & stuff is clear enough to me.
The game is modifiable by you if you want to say change the camo on a vehicle so it stands out you can if you are willing to spend the time which raises another point.
The game you mentioned or any modern game for that fact how many units does it include, the answer will be a fraction of those included in this game.
I think most people would love to see a modern update but this is a vast game cant ever see anybody doing something on this scale again. Where we perhaps differ is I am not really fussed about the graphics unless you really are talking old schooI I want the game system updated, better arty routines etc.

On the widscreen thing I play in it & it works fine there is a sticky on this forum with the patch.

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

I second Imp. The only thing that makes me think of graphics update is the size of fonts and encyclopaedia in high resolution mode.

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

We already support widescreen. The Beta test was run with winSPMBT and will be introduced in the next patch for CD owners. As for the rest ......if we did contemplate that type of extensive update ( and we don't... ) it WOULD require a full rewrite of the code and if we did a full rewrite of the code it wouldn't be "Steel Panthers" any longer because we wouldn't waste thousands of hours more modifying existing code with all the imposed restrictions that entails. IF we were going to do that we would have done it 5 years ago and had we done that five years ago we *might* be at the Beta stage now and for absolute certain there would be no winspww2 or winspmbt .

As for the "large niche Market" all I can say is.....there is nothing "large" about the market for this type of computer wargame. Never has been, never will be no matter how fancy the graphics are



Don

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

I am assuming that the wide-screen support that was beta tested in WinSPMBT will be in the next CD-owners patch for WinSPWW2 also? Unfortunately I do not own the CD for MBT...just WW2 so have not gotten to experience the wide-screen addition...but am looking forward to it!

I fully understand and agree with the argument against a re-write if that would be what is required...too much time and effort for not enough potential sales (by large segment of a niche market...I meant large group of a small community which = small). I wouldn't do it either, if I were a developer.

I maybe way off here, but it seems to me that the issue with grahics some perceive is not pixel or art related but possibly pallete related. Is the pallete limited to 8bit or under? (I am just a player...not a designer so have not investigated nor understand creating maps/icons/scenarios). If so, would it also require a re-write to increase the usable pallete?

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

I think & may be wrong here the issue with graphics is an age thing sure I read somewhere the younger market values looks over playability 3D is near enough a must for a main stream game. As this by no means falls into the category of mainstream it does not apply really.
Unless you are talking dire graphics to me it makes no diffrence & changing a 2D game to a 3D game is a pointless exercise unless the game is modified to make the inclusion of 3D usefull. I have played breifly many games that are in fact just old games dressed up in fancy 3D clothes & the one consistent thing is they are normally worse than the originals with poor interfaces or cameras that get lost etc.
First Person Shooter with near realistic 3D now thats good helps with immersion & makes the game so long as its gameplay is sound. The big snag & I may be wrong is nowadays it costs so much money to get the graphics to the level the market wants very few games actually have any money left over to spend on game play

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

I for one would not be interested in a 3D version...The only game in 3D that I have liked is Silent Hunter III and IV...the rest were harder for me to follow (I tried with Combat Mission Shock Force...but it just does not work as well for me). With this type of game I think there is nothing more appropriate than a 2D top down view.

maybe it is an age thing...I grew up on over the board war games.

I am interested in the best 2D top down environment and UI possible for this game though. It is all just an academic exercise as it would require a rewrite, and that will not happen (justifably).

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

Hello IMP. I just asked to use the zoom with mouse wheel and nothing else. Look, I am the complainant unless the site lol.:o:)

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

Realise that Roman & as I said not a bad idea it might even happen at some point, off the top of my head though I probably use next/previous target more so getting it to do N+P on the scroll & T on wheel press saves "stretching" to the keyboard. Course you could always make them user definable.

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

I have wondered in the past if the graphics complaints might not be sometimes related to the way people set up the brightness level of their computer. I have seen on two occasions games installed on other machines that had severely washed out graphics and that was because they had the brightness set way up and to be quite frank the game looks like crap when it's too bright

The problem with describing what it "should" look like is that everybody has their own preferences on how they are comfortable looking at their screen and how they have it set up will influence how examples look but if you game looks more like the thumbnail on the right you have the brightness turned up too high on your monitor.

Another test is the "black" flag that appears when you fight one country against itself. If you can see a diagonal bar across that flag your monitor is set too bright. Every monitor is different and everyone sets them up differently ( and everyones eyes are not the same ) but my monitor is and always has been, set to 50% brightness and 85 % contrast

Don

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

Yes. The next release for both games will include the widescreen support for CD owners

Don

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

My 2 cents:

I like the 2D environment and the graphics.

I like to play with the Hex Grid turned OFF. It perhaps took a whole game to get used to, but I've found that I can more easily recognise map features and in particular hill levels and slopes. This has not been the cause of misclicks! I mostly PBEM so you can't take back wrong moves, and so I would soon be using the Grid if it caused problems.

There's a Hot Key '.' (dot) to turn the map Hex Grid OFF and ON. I recommend using it. I only turn it on briefly, a couple of times a battle, to count hexes and figure out where some hidden ATk gun/MG fire is probably coming from.

There's a couple of different infantry mods available if you want more visible infantry icons; and you can also turn on ID Tags (flags) in the preferences screen (there's no Hot Key for ID tags).

Cross



or two to

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

Cross, I just discovered the hex grid off in my last PBEM game...you are absolutely correct. It made map reading much easier for me...still not perfect, but much easier. I am glad you brought this up, it may help others.

As for the infantry mods, I have a problem with the small infantry...I do not like spending time hunting when a PBEM turn has taken awhile and I do not exactly recall where everthing is (even with ID tags...since I like mine small). A long time ago someone came up with a larger infantry mod where the helmets are a bit bigger and contrasts a little better with the surroundings. I am pretty sure I found it in an old TOE post...does anybody recall this mods name or author? It may help those that have issue with locating infantry in forest hexes, etc.

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

Hex grids off is a good point makes it look like table top minitures in my view.
Takes a while to get used to but if you stick with it become very good at judging ranges. Its like wearing a watch I suppose if you dont bother stop being reliant on it & become pretty good at judging time but put the watch or hex grid on & brain goes into lazy mode & uses them.

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

like cross says, putting hexgrid of gives a better impression and that is how i play the game as well.

as gabeeg mentions still the grafik is far from an eye candy. and right: i did not realize before but i believe gabeeg might be correct: it is not the pixel resolution given the old school feeling, but the number of colors used. can anybody give some insight to his question if there is a 8bit or lower restriction to the hex design?

thanks drg for answering the initial question. to bad all hope for a visual more sophisticated version is lost. - the rest of the game, as mentioned before, is superior to everything comparable on this gaming sector

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

Here's some links to infantry mods:

1. These are very realistic (WW2 & MBT) but a bit too large in IMHO:
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...7/01010_11.jpg

Download:
http://www.theblitz.org/message_boar....php?tid=52809


2. This SPWW2/MBT infantry mod is not realistic, but shows up well:
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/5439/newsol1.jpg

Download:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42984


3. This mod is the same size as the original infantry, but some of them show up better, especially the cavalry:

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/5...ntrymodx2a.png

Download:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=46332


Cross

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

Thats a nice post Cross, thanks. I do not recall seeing those top ones before. I am using the ones in #2 as they show up real well (think it is the shine off the helmets)...but take some getting used to. The third set is from your mod correct? I was tempted to try them but they look the same size as the originals so have thus far have not...they are very, very well done though.

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

Yes, the third set is my infantry icon mod.

They were deliberately designed the same size as the originals, as the mod is only supposed to improve the graphic representation of the infantry, with more realism and variety.

I like small infantry, and think it's especially important with larger sections/squads. I usually have ID Tags/Flags turned on. But use the mini-ID flag mod, so the flags are very small.

I agree that there's often a break-in period where you have to get used to a mod. But try a few, and see what works best for you. In the end it's a personal preference.


Cross

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

Yes, in a future patch the display size option should be divided in two size options: One resolution for the battle screen (1028x1024 for me), and one for all the others (purchase, encyclopedia, etc; 640x480 for me).

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

I agree with eriss.

I don´t know if different resolutions for menus is the solution, or a redesigned interface for higher resolutions.

I like the graphics as they are.
The thinks to do. My ideas.

-Higher menus and interface (encyclopaedia, editors, scenarios etc...)They are tiny and hard to read.

-Something MUST be done with the minimap. I can (now) live without the menus in full screen. But the minimap is something make me leave the game for months, damages playability.
The maps in this game are bigger than other versions, but the minimap is useless. Hard to see dots (colours) and tiny square showing only a part of the battlefield if the map is big.
The idea should be adding an external full screen map? and make the actual minimap as generic approach with different dot colours?


I would change the Artillery model, I dont like it. I didnt like it in 1997.

But that is another question.

I think that is the most important things the game needs. No 3d, no new engine unless that simple thinks to do are impossible due to the engine limitations.

Greetings!

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

Not much need for a mini-map change IMO.

Better to use the zoom feature.

Zoom out to get a general view of battlefield,click on a unit in a specific area of action, zoom in,repeat as needed.

ID tags can be turned on and off also.

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

I only use the mini map to get to a further place on the map than I am quickly. Hard to believe someone would walk away from the game because of it. As Gila says, if you really want a quick overview zoom out with the ID tags on

The arty routine is completely different than the original in 1997. Read the Game guide

Don

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

To gila:

Of course.
And smaller screen resolutions the solution to small fonts.

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

I am not speaking about the arty routine I speak about the way it is designed, I dont like It. I didnt like it in 1997. Just an opinion.

The zoom out is a zoom out. A minimap is a fast generic visual approach to the battlefield. I think that was the reason the minimap exists since the first Steel Panthers. It could have been designed without it.

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

Have to admit dont understand the mini map beef its only function is to jump quickly to another location saving scrolling, easy enough to live without.

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

Ok,but do tell us what game has a better "design"?

Free games you want play or not, are your right to playtest,buy or reject,it's up all to you.

Since this is a free D/L version more than likley,for you,

you shouldn't complain too much.

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

If I consider something can be improved I will say it. And I think the minimap and the interface, menu text, etc, can be improved. It is good for the game. That´s all.

Heresy?

The Arty question is something personal and is not the theme of my topic.

Some immobile stances dont make any good to the future of classics.

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

:)

All these years, ever since SP1 I have always played with Hex Grids OFF. I thought everyone else did also, hehe..., I really only used the hex grids for judging distance when making maps...

At one point I did however start using ID flags, and have been doing so for years.

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

Steel Panther 2 makers does make better grafic for new SP2 game but it burried under stress? Years ago. Sad thing.

Mayby that project is steady to work now . Who knows? Where is code? FIND IT!

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

The minimap functionality is easily replaced by the maximum zoomed out view.
I was lately playing few desert scenarios with big maps and I was switching between the maximum zoomed out view and the standard one (for me it is almost maximum zoomed in). It takes about 3 steps each way.
Maybe the small minimap issue can be solved by a key that switches the view between all-zoomed-out and current magnification back and forth?

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

This mini map thing intriges me people must play the game diffrently somehow. I play a lot on maps from 80x80 to the max & have never had a problem with it. Its only function is to jump quickly from one point of the map to the other.It takes seconds or quicker place the mouse at the edge not shown & click once, job done. As to its clarity maybe if you are colourblind things are hard to see, only other thing I can think of is your playing in low resolution or need glasses. I just tried & yellow could perhaps be a bit more vibrant but I can see red dots easily 2 metres from my monitor.

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

The mini maps function is, as John says, primarily a way to get around the map quickly. The dots that represent units on both sides are there to indicate where your units are and where known units are. It is NOT there to give you an overview of your units. That's what zoom out is for.

I have made a note to clarify this in the game guide.

Don

Re: SP with better Graphics?
 

It is also very handy for post game reviews.

Warwick