Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Hi All,

Sorry for my naivete, but I haven't been around for a while. I just learned of the Great Schism, where many of the oldtimers I liked & respected were banned from this forum, only to be sentenced to a different boring forum.

So I'd like to take a modest straw poll.

Premise: Given that the purpose of this board is to be a sales tool, should banned user original contributions be deleted from the boards? It only seems fair that if I ban a contributor from the board, I should not benefit from their past contributions, no?

Very curious to hear the community's opinion...

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

I voted no. The board is a sales tool, yes, but its also a community. If the mods remove a user, contributions and all, then its just massive collateral damage against the community as a whole. We don't need that by any means. Treating the board as a single entity justifies the fairness well enough, but that isn't accurate by any means.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Removing content threads from banned users does nothing except make that content harder to find for new players, which does noone any good.

Poll is too passive aggressive by half. Didn't vote.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

IMO it should be up to the creator. If Sombre etc. wants the content removed then it should be, if not then it should not. Very simple.

The best would be to delete the content but keep the threads and replace the OP with links to the relevant threads on the new forum, that way everyone gets access to the latest updates.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Im not sure who it is you are referring to as doing the deleting. Are you asking if the owners should? Or if Shrapnel should?

I think this was semi-decided back when in 2004 when another banned person went thru and deleted as many of his own programs and posts as he could find. Thats when the 30-minute edit window was reinstated, and the backups of uploaded items. The poster no longer gets those choices. Anything put on a companys server is considered to be their property.

BUT on the other hand, the users argued that the FIRST post of every thread should continue to be able to be edited. We won that back. Since most threads about mods and maps use the first post to store the link, they can be edited to point somewhere else. Anything that has been uploaded to the forum will still be there but the link would be broken. Whether or not they SHOULD be Id say no. It should be up to the author to decide, not anyone else.

By the way, the comment of "only to be sentenced to a different boring forum" seems strange. I got the impression they had happily created that forum to prove the premise that a forum without strict moderation could be vibrant and active. I understand that there are some very entertaining threads there.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

They were actually BANNED here? Someone point me to the thread?

What the hey-ho could cause this? It should indeed be up to the author of the content. If it isn't that's somewhere between lame and theft.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

well, it would have been theft is it wasn't for all the legal mumbo jumbo everyone has to agree on before creating an account. this legal mumbo jumbo basically means the company can do whatever they want with anything that appears on their forums, as well as many other boring things that nobody actually cares to read.

companies hire lawyers for a reason, to cover their asses in various situations. the customer, who generally isn't a lawyer by training, doesn't really have a clue about all those things he must agree on in order to create an account on the forums, and to play the actual game too while we're at it. so they put up various clauses that let them get away with anything they'll ever want by sneaking it in with all the other legalese.

so, to be honest, the community's opinion in this matter doesn't matter at all. the law is very clear, and by playing this game and having accounts here, we've all agreed to these terms, whether we like(or even know) about them or not.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

But (if my understanding on forum workings is correct) part of this argument/problem then though is the situation that arises when banned members can not access their threads/first posts in order to decided whether or not their work should be available to others.

As in that case it is not the author who is deciding whether or not his/her content is available to others (as you and many others say it should be), but instead it is those who are preventing the author from accessing the threads that author created that are deciding the matter. (unless banned members/authors will have any requests they make honoured with regards content they created that they now wish to be made unavailable/removed)

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Isn't this point largely moot? Have any of the banned mod authors requested their work be removed? I don't recall seeing complaints about that on the other forum.

There are games advertised on both forums. Most of the mods are available on llamaserver anyway.

The forums are a sales tool, but they are free. Game sales are where the revenue comes from. If the banned users actually wanted to hurt Shrapnel, then continuing to make mods to improve the game seems counter-productive, whether those mods appear on these forums or not.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Most company forums have a disclaimer when you sign up that any uploaded content becomes property of the company.

What is the point of the OP posting this anyway? This is a fairly inflammatory post, why bother unless you're just trying to stir the pot.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

It would be nice if the OP didn't add rationales behind "yes" "no" and "abstain". Using just the yes/no/abstain options gives a false impression that the options cover all possibilities, which is not the case. I voted "no", but that doesn't mean I think shrapnel games should own all posted content.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Well, Frank Trollman went through and systematically removed a bunch of his stuff. He would have used a "nuke all my posts" button, if one existed, but probably wouldn't have actually made a request to the admins.

It is of course *legally* the case that Shrapnel owns anything we post here - or, at least, that they own a license to continue serving it, whether we like it or not. That doesn't mean that they *should*: many forums with exactly the same legal boilerplate allow users to delete their posts if they wish, and I think it is better to allow someone who leaves to delete their posts if they wish to do so. There are all sorts of reasons for this, very few of which have anything to do with wishing to "hurt shrapnel."

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

or just host mods on storage sites like CBM does instead of attaching them to posts here. Then the authors can remove them at will and leave a dead link.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

This doesn't hold up in court actually. At least in the US, terms of service agreements are often thrown out as non-binding, especially when they conflict with other established rights. I am not a lawyer, but I am virtually certain that a creator's implicit copyright to work he creates trumps any boilerplate terms of service agreement. The only way to relinquish copyright in the US is to specifically agree to do so for a work.

So just because you clicked 'yes' to 5 pages of legal gobbledegook doesn't mean those 5 pages trump other legal considerations.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Which instantly renders forums, blogs and much of the internet unusable,
since I just violated your copyright by copying your post into mine.

Discussions, archives, etc, all break if some of the content can be removed/changed at whim. Should you be able to delete not only your posts, but any posts that quote them, paraphrase them etc? All of which could be considered derivative works.

Any challenges to the boilerplate would likely apply to making use of the content in another form. If Shrapnel wanted to package up a bunch of mods and sell them, that would be a problem. Requiring them to delete content you've already allowed them to publish on the site is more like trying to require everyone who has a copy of your book to destroy it.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Actually Squirrelloid you are correct up to a point. Clicking doesnt make it happen. No warning or disclaimer or agreement can change the law.

However, the law has already made some decisions. Its always changing but there have been plenty of cases. Mostly involving things like what a worker puts on a company computer but they hold. The other factor is the concept of "public posting" which allows a person to retain authorship, but not ownership. They can no longer control what is publicly posted. (latest cases involving google might make some changes soon but not much)

Ive worked sysadmin for a law firm while new topics of internet law was being hammered out. Its definitely still an area where please and thank you is far more effective than trying to quote law. If someone were to request it, then it might happen.

But I agree with others that its a moot point. I dont think either side of this is considering any deletions.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Since the OP was complaining about Shrapnel profiting from their past contributions, my main point was that the profit comes from sales of the game not the forums. Since many of the banned users have continued to make mods, they are still actively contributing to that profit as much as they ever were.

I don't really feel like rereading the flame wars from when they were banned, but I really don't remember anyone from that particular lot of banned users complaining about their mods still being available here. There's plenty of complaining about Shrapnel on the other site, but I don't recall much about that. Which would make this whole thread kind of pointless.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Here is my two cents on the matter... I do not give a **** what the law says about things... I do care for what is the right thing to do... If the law tells me to do something that my moral code does not accept i wont do it but i will take the punishment that law reguires for me... whitout law there is jungles law... The stronges one is always right... So we do need laws...

For the vote... I really hate it when people put words in my mouth so i refuse to vote... I do think that people do have the right for stuff they have made... So if the maker of the stuffs in guestion wants them removed then they should be removed... If the one talking about the stuff is not the one who made it this whole conversation is pretty much irrelevant...

To comment the stuff behind all of this hate... i think that permanent ban is the forums version of death sentence... Death sentence does not give second chances. Nothing good comes from denieng the chance to rethink deciosions and actions. I mean that after all we all are just humans and we all make mistakes. Remember that eye for an eye will make the whole world blind. There should always be room for forgiving...

This whole post is actually pretty good example off stuff which could make for bad judgements... I just came home from pretty wet pre x-mas party and im guite drunk now =P So tomorrow when im sober i might read this post and think what the heck i was thinking when i wrote this :D So if i would get banned for writing this ( or more likely writing post whit this many typos in it :D ) would it be right? Or would it really increase the harmony of the forums? :re:

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Something tells me there's a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5kPU...eature=related

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

The poll is a tad inflammatory, eh? Consider the last option in the poll. Compared to most forums the banhammer rarely comes out. In eleven years I'm betting we could count on one and a half hands how many folks had to be banned (not talking about spammers of course), and definitely not because of voting in a poll.

The first two options are also problematic. Shrapnel doesn't profit from the mods, the community does. When someone purchases Dom3 they purchase the vanilla game. It's up to them to discover and use the mods. Likewise I don't think anyone from Shrapnel has ever said, "Ha! You fools, by uploading your maps you've played right into our hands. We own them now!" so the "rationale" behind voting "No" is way off the mark.

Gotta say sorta surprised to see the situation rear up again.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Isnt it true that shrapnel profits from the content here in part because people purchase the game partially because they see all the mods and activity in MP games and discussion etc. I know of several people who played the demo, and checked out the forums, and talking to people on the forums/IRC decided to buy the game. So shrapnel does profit from content here. In fact a friend of mine decided to buy the game only after he saw some of Sombre's mods and saw how cool they were and wanted to make one of his own.

Also, your suprised that people still care/still dont like the whole thing? its going to take a lot longer for that to happen. too many old vets got chased away

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Honestly I see no reason to reiterate all this all over again. Everyone who was involved or watching the incident has his opinion of what happened that is unlikely to change now, so why go through it again? I understand that OP wasn't present on the forums when it happened, but still he can ask others of their opinion privately instead of creating the so-called "vote" the only purpose of which is to add the fuel to another flame war, especially so considering the fact that the authors of the content never expressed the idea of removing the content themselves.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Umm, did it occur to you that they, you know, couldn't cuz herp derp they were BANNED!:doh:

Unless you expected them to email shrap and cc everyone on the forums.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

No. It's up to the mod creator to decide.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

pretty sure he meant anywhere.

in that sense they profit from any sort of community site whether they host it or not. however its safe to say the vast majority of customers never even check forums before purchasing.

mods/mp activity is something most indie types would prboably hear about from friends etc.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

I'm absolutely sure that they have a way to contact Shrapnel without logging to this forum. Well, I even heard that some of them had second accounts here ;). Anyway, I'm sure that such request was never made, and that if it will be made someday, Shrapnel will remove the content immediately.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Even if Shrapnel didnt removed the content, it seems like a moot point.

So what if a mod like SingleAge stayed available on Shrapnel? A mod like SingleAgeComplete or SingleAge w/LLama Banners would be released which would make it stupid for anyone to download SingleAge anymore. Posts would point to the new one, and links in threads about new games using it would point to the new one, and LLama's server would point to the new one, and the Wiki, etc etc etc. Most users would never even pick up on the fact that the new version is being offered in a different place than the old one.

And I have ALWAYS offered FREE hosting to any project for any of the games Ive liked. Dominions has had this thru version 1,2,3. Free file space, webspace, email, etc. They can use Dom3Minions domain or their own domain. Thats all pretty ******* rare on any ******* game forum as far as I can see.

OR if anyone did delete their mod/map/program without offering a new one then anyone could reoffer it on the web. Its not like it would die from LLama's server.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Related was also nice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3n0vBcW5fc

(they actually played that song in a bar I frequent a while ago :)).

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

This thread is dumb. Wahhhh, only our tight knit group is using our forums, if we were able to delete our crap other people would have to come here and we could really stick it to shrapnel.

That being said, they should have the right to delete their stuff if they want. As far as some of the retarded legality posts go... the bulk of the banned guys stuff was based on copyrighted material. It would be hilarious to witness a court case where these guys sued a game publisher for hosting modifications based on another companies trademarked IP claiming them as their own works.

There should probably be an option for banned users to delete (Not modify) attachments in their old threads. These guys chose to stick it to the man, it is not fair that they didn't consider this little loophole and it should be corrected by the forum owners they disrespected...immediately no less!

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Authors do not have the right to 'delete' their work from the public domain, whether or not a library they dislike profits from it.

It is rather foolish to advocate an action that will only cause more antagonism, and make less content available to all players.

My comments do not reflect my opinion on the bannings themselves, nor the persons banned-- they simply note a distaste for petty censorship that is nothing but self-destructive.


P.S.
It may even be advisable for Shrapnel to seek out modifications to the game made elsewhere and compile them here, for easier access to all players. With proper accreditation and linking.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Public domain? I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

I agree that those words were misused, since "public domain" has a specific meaning in copyright context.
Do you disagree with the actual point though? Do you think authors have (or should have) the right to delete published copies of their work?

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

I don't really have a clear opinion on it. Something can be said for both sides.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

This topic is quite pointless since no matter what the voting results nothing would change. It's like having a topic called, "Should development work for Dominions_4 be started?". Even if 99.9% of the community voted "yes" with 80,000 verified real votes it would not change anything.
I'm thinking some disgruntled banned members orchestrated this discussion as a way for tossing pebbles into the ocean in an attempt to make some waves. It's kinda cute.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Cleveland is definitely Sombre's alt

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

More likely Cleveland just felt like poking the nest with a stick. You'll notice he hasn't commented after the first post.

Very successful hit and run troll.

edit: May or may not be someone's alt. Doesn't really matter. The outcome and likely intent is the same.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

christ that's dumb. It's purely cleveland's creation. He's an old and well-liked member of the community, but he only shows up now and then. He came by shrapnel, read up on the old news, became incensed, and posted this poll. Hopefully it doesn't mean that he's given up on Dominions entirely, but it may well.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Are you blind? Look at the abstain voting option and you'll clearly see it's not an independent view. Abstain is clearly an obvious attack instead of being "Abstain - No comment" and thus allowing members to post their own reasons for abstaining. As I wrote earlier this is just a pebble into the ocean... cute to watch. LOL

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

its not an independant view. its umm.... clevelands. just like archae said.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

They do, and you're obfuscating the point.
"Works are in the public domain if they are not covered by intellectual property rights at all."
It would take long years in a sympathetic court to yield even a slight acknowledgment of IP rights on a mod. Especially a mod of one copyrighted game to add the units of another copyrighted game to it.

As I've said, this does not reflect my opinion on the modders themselves, but it is nonetheless accurate.
The purpose of modding is likely to improve something you enjoy. You clearly acknowledge that you will be aiding the game and all who profit from its improvement. Including you.

I'll give a useful example:
If Jim Butcher urinated on the floor of a Barnes and Noble, he may be banned from the premises.
Will the store still sell The Dresden Files? Yes.
And he actually does have the IP rights to that series.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

That's your opinion and my opinion is different.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

no, that's the simple fact, and your opinion is different.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

You truly are pretending and nothing will change. :happy:

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Creating a mod of copyrighted IP in another copyrighted IP does not an will never ever release anything in the public domain.

I'm not obfuscating the point. You are using public domain wrong. Sure the creators of the mod do not gain the copyright for the mod. But neither is the mod released to the public domain. Public domain is never the issue here. Unless the creator of the mod (a mod which is not based on a third party IP) released it specifically to the public domain. Which nobody ever did as far as I could recall.

So my point stands. You misused public domain.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Muse, Soyweiser is absolutely right in his comment about what public domain means. Just accept that you are using the word wrongly in this instance and move on.


On the subject of the opening post:

If somebody wants to retain the options to do what they wish with any mods, maps or other work they may produce, even in the event of being banned, or due to dislike of certain forum policies (such as Shrapnel being granted certain rights to anything posted on the forums), then host them elsewhere under your own control and use external links.

I use that approach myself, not because I live in expectation of being banned or the like, but because I like to retain full control over what I do. It also makes cleaning up after obsolete versions much, much easier.

All the stuff I've posted here on the forums, such as the various analysis about site frequencies, the FAQ and such, I still own the copyright to those posts. Just that by posting on the forums, I've agreed to let Shrapnel use them as they see fit and they do. At the same time, by posting them in a public venue (publicly viewable by others), that's used up the first publication rights right there.

That's why even if I wanted e.g. the FAQ removed, which I don't, it would stay there. It's too useful for everyone and I've granted permission to Shrapnel to do what they will with it.

On the other hand, if I wanted to yank the Dom3 DB, the Faerun map, the event list or otehr stuff in my Dom3 hosting folder, there's nothing anyone can do to prevent me. Not that it's going to happen, but I have the option. I put too much work into a lot of that stuff to just hand control over it to anyone else. Anyone can download the fruits of my work and use them, but they can assert no control over what I do with them. They could even repost them should I remove my work. And since I've posted that stuff in a publicly accessible place (even though it is under my control), it pretty much follows that they are not important enough to me to put them under lock and key.

If I do consider something so important that I want to keep full control of it all the time, it's never going to get posted anywhere online in the first place.

Once you let the genie out of the bottle, you won't be able to stuff it back in. It pretty much applies to everything posted on the net, including mods and other things posted on this forum.

As far as making mods using 3rd party IPs (such as Warhammer, LotR, The Witcher or whatever else), that's more or less covered by fair use and the non-commercial nature of the mods. The mileage may vary according to what the law says in a given jurisdiction, but more or less it's not going to ruffle feathers.

But the second anyone tries to actively make a buck by charging for such derivative work (unless it is the original copyright holder), you can bet that the knives will come out so fast you won't even see the first blows.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Depends on your country.
In France they definitely can. Except for software for some reason. The code de la propriété intellectuelle goes so far that there are some rights that cannot be legally transferred (moral rights), and these include the right to no longer allow publication of one's work.
So basically anything written in France cannot be published without the author consent, even if there was a paid contract for that. Problem being the paid contract being broken, the author will have to pay an indemnity to the publisher if he wants to stop the publication, and he has to give this same publisher priority should he allow publication og his works again...

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Saying something vehemently enough does not make it true.
You have no point, because you have no evidence, like many other comments made both about the game mechanics and otherwise.

Releasing a work to a publicly available website without meeting the criteria for Berne Convention attachment (originality, derivative-work copyright) places it in the public domain. Period.

Anyone accessing the website can take, modify, repost, and make collages with the mods here without even needing a lick of Fair Use justification.

The 'droit de repentir' even in the case of a fully copyrighted work is under the purview of the Court, which can and has denied the right when its exercise would be abusive or was requested under 'disingenuous motives.'

In France, it would be technically legal for the great-grandson of an original author to request the cessation of production, distribution, and display for, say, a book such as The Lord of the Rings.
Will it be denied? Yes. Cultural facet.
Further, it is only enacted at the payment of damages to all owners of the property rights. If the property rights have lapsed into public domain, the damages would be considered infinite.

The 'moral rights' of France even apply to architectural plans, and I must say, the actual court cases for their invocation on those are very amusing.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

I think it would be for common benefit if mods are stored on a separate custom-tailored resource (like TES/Fallout3/DAO/etc-nexus, NWN-vaults, Mount & Blade repository etc) rather than forum threads. Authors have full control over their submissions, files are stored in special repository instead of being deleted from rapidshare, full interface with screenshots, comments, sorting by mod types, ratings etc. And forum grudges stay in the forums.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

What do game mechanics have to do with this? And you don't provide any evidence either.

So if I make a mod based on the IP of both dom3, and warhammer and release it here it is in the public domain? I doubt it.

(And you could always argue that the creation of the mod itself constitutes the creation of a original piece of work).

If I where to post a mod here in which I used my own sprites, and my own fantasy nation you couldn't. I would still have the copyright on that.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

I agree with Nordlys here, it would definitely be great. It would also allow modders from different forums to store thir works in a common place and link from wherever they like.

As for this thread being an echo of the Sombre spectacle, yeah of course it is. There will be more for years to come I suppose. That's not very surprising when you f*ck things up so badly. It's not a matter of where the blame lies, just plain old cause and effect.

Another event to be written in the community history along with norfleet, monkey PD, NaV sillyness, setsumi etc... It will be continuosly referred to and bickered over.

I don't mind, I think it's rather entertaining.