The Artifact Tier List
 

Me and my brother decided that as a useful service to everyone, we would make a tier list of all the artifacts, so when you hit const 8, you know what to make first.

This is entirely our opinions, and we welcome debate about any artifact, and if you convince us that we are wrong, these tiers are very subject to change. Also, if you see an artifact that you don’t know what it does, I suggest you look at the wiki first: http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Category:Item. As a warning though, the wiki is not 100% correct, and some of the descriptions are not that useful, so if you have questions still, feel free to post here.

Everything here is based upon CBM 1.7, I think we got all the artis right.


Tier 1
This is a smaller tier because these items are far and away much better than all the others. Some of them are worth wishing for even. As soon as you hit const 8, these items *need* to be forged. They are game changing. Also, these items are good no matter what. You will never have a time where you can’t use them.

• The Chalice N4S3
• Gate Stone E6 S6
• Hammer of the Forge Lord E4 F3
• Sceptre of Dark Regency D5
• The Sickle Whose Crop is Pain D5
• Boots of the Planes S5
• Mage Bane E6
• Soulstone of the Wolves N5 E1



Tier 2
These items are mostly either the less important boosters, or the very good SC items that are artifacts. They might not change the entire game, but they can be very beneficial, and should be forged pretty darn quick.

• Magic Lamp A4 F4
• Forbidden Light S4 F4
• Tome of High Power A2 S2
• The Gift of Kurgi B5
• Armor of Virtue S3
• Sword of Many Colors E4 S3
• The Flying Ship A4
• The Aegis E5
• Dwarven Hammer E3
• Amon Hotep F5 S5
• The Sword of Aurgelmer S5
• Dimensional Rod S3
• Black Book of Secrets B2D2


Tier 3
These items are mainly the more niche items, which can be useful in certain instances, but are not a top priority. They are some good gear for SC’s, or marginal boosters mostly.

• Ark F5 S5
• Horror Harmonica S5 D4
• Tome of Gaia N2 E2
• Krupp's Bracers E2
• The Ankh D5
• Barrier E4
• The Stone Sword E4
• The Boots of Calius the Druid N3
• Crown of the Ivy King N2
• Aseftik's Armor E4
• Hammer of the Mountains E2
• Ember F2 W2
• Tome of the Lower Planes S3 B2
• Pebble Skin Suit B3 E1
• Blood Stone B3E2
• Tempest A5

Tier 4
This tier is whats left of the artifacts that are still useful in some way without having massive downsides. These are the things you want to try and get if you are about the 3rd person to get to Const 8. Still worth building

• Nethgul S3 W2
• Ardmon's Soul Trap B3 S1
• Black Mirror S4 B2
• Twin Spear S1 B1
• Twin Spear S1 D1
• Procas' Axe of Rulership B2 E1
• Picus' Axe of Rulership D2 E1
• Harvest Blade B3 N1
• Tartarian Chains E4 F1
• Crown of Overmight F3 E1
• The Flailing Hands D2
• Jade Mask D5 N3
• The Ruby Eye F3
• The Summit E5
• Orb of Atlantis W4 E1
• The Green Eye N2
• Flesh Ward B5
• Trident From Beyond W3S1
• Robe of Calius the Druid N2
• Monolith Armor E4

Tier 5
These items are kind of the junk pile. Some of these items are worth forging, but they really don’t help you much. Some of them are really a waste of gems. Every once in a while these items get used in an ok fashion, but generally they are not worthwhile or provide such a small benefit that they may as well not exist. (Note, Holger’s head and Percival were never meant to be good; they are just a bit of a joke for the Devs.)

• Igor Konhelm's Tome A2 D2
• Sharpest Tooth N1
• Sword of Justice F3 S3
• Oath Rod of Kurgi S1 B1
• Infernal Sword B1 F1
• Holger the Head E1
• Percival the Pocket Knight E1
• Alchemist's Stone E1 F1
• Rod of Death D1
• O'al Kan's Sceptre F2
• Winter Bringer W2
• Carcator the Pocket Lich D3
• Sword of Injustice D4
• Woundflame D4
• Sun Slayer D5
• Fenris' Pelt N3
• Clam of Pearls W3 N1
• Fever Fetish F1N1

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

Why thank you. This is a very useful list. But of course I don't agree with everything on it. For example the Sword of Justice or Winter Bringer are not terribly powerful, but they are also very cheap and you will almost always get your moneys worth for them.

On the other hand, I have never been able to get more use out of the twin spears, than a fire brand would have provided.

The sickle is good, but I don't think it deserve being in the first tier either.

Maybe i'll make a more thorough analysis later....

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

sword of justice is a holy booster which is pretty meh. and its kind of expensive. i suppose its good for getting an H4 person maybe, but i dont think its really worht moving up. and winter bringer is just such a small factor. once you get const8 your opponent could care less about 2 FF per turn. Yeah, i always forge it, but its not exactly what i'd call *useful*

a note about the twin spears- We are assuming they (and the procus/picus) are being used together when determining their usefulness. so the spears give you awe, luck and two good dmg attacks, and call lesser horror. so marginally useful at the least.

sickle is up for debate. in the past it was for sure a T1 item, probably the fourth best item in the game, but nowadays abusing it with the soulstone or maenads or other chaff is generally banned, so it is less useful. but it is still a D gem generator, and turns things like indy barb attacks into free death gems. which is pretty darn good.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

Oops! Did I write Sword of justice? I meant to write: the Infernal Sword. Put it on a banelord, give him a pair of flying boots and put him on attack monsters and he'll become an excellent anti-SC. Tier three, at least. In theory off course. I have never tested it.

As for the Sword of Justice? It could probably be bumped up to tier four because it is situationally useful for bless-nations that lack level 3 priests. Ashdod, T'ien Ch'i, Lanka and so on. It really cuts down on the micro, make sure that everyone gets blessed, and allow you to recruit other things than priests in your castles.
Can also be used to bless all your sacred mages with that earth bless. This way they do not need to cast bless themselves, and can use the first turn to cast other things.

As for the twin spears, they are length 4 each, I think. Dual wielding them would give you -8 to attack unless you have ambidexterity. Also you have to sacrifice your shield slot, witch is always a bummer.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

FYI, Infernal Sword's effect is MR resists, so its substantially worse than it would seem judging by the description.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

Oh! Well thats much worse! I thought it imitated the spell: Infernal Prison.
In that case..... It still only cost 10 gems....... 6 gems with a hammer. Thats.... kind of good?

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

1) dont bother considering the cost with a hammer. its on here cause its an artifact. so you wont reliably have it.

By the time you have artifacts, you probably have a decent way to bless everyone anyways, or its a little late for it to really matter. prophet is the easiest solution. and remember in the T5 description i did say "Every once in a while these items get used in an ok fashion"

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

Good work, however I disagree with some items, but unfortunately I don't have much time to explain my position so I'll be brief (also my gradation is for non-unique hammers as I'm not going to play 1.7+).
Junk IMO are the things which I won't bother forging at all due to either lack of gems or lack of lab slots for items. So Sword of Injustice, Carcator, Winter Bringer, Alchemist's stone, Sword of justice, Igor's tome go to T4.
OTOH Monolith armor, Flesh ward, single axe or spear are all too expensive or useless so go to junk imo.
Horror harmonica can be pretty useful, not sure but probably T2. Gaia definitely T2, cheap booster for 2 paths that can be combined for Gaia's blessing and EN rituals. Pebble skin probably T4. Ankh maybe T2.
Also I think The Summit and The Stone Sword should be exchanged, I see more uses for the Summit.
Dimensional Rod T1 if you plan wishing, wish starts several turns earlier with it.
Sickle and soulstone T2. Magic Lamp T1 if nobody can reforge it.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

honestly not sure why the clam rated so low. I mean, yeah, you can't mass produce them anymore, but its still 1s/trn. This is not insignificant, especially since it mostly costs w gems.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

Because const 8 is later and with no hammers it has a chance not to pay for itself before game ends. With hammers T3.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

if you're the first person to const 8, it'll pay for itself.

Seriously, i've been to constr 8 *and* conj 9 by turn ~33 before. (Turbo tart rush!)

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

Nice list :) It is accurate enought to give good idea to beginners of what to forge if they happen to be first at const 8. All the vets ofcourse could make their own list with some personal preferences.

Linking the items to the wiki would be cool. It would also be a pain do.

Some personal preferences of mine (what i would change if this was my list).

There should be tier 0 for chalice, Hammer of forge whore, gate stone and the scepter of 3 death boost :D

Even talking about rest of the items in the same context with those is insulting.

The sicle is overrated. Whitout some abusive way to use it its not that good. I have seen tarts go down when trying to farm gems whit sicle in battle. Does not casting soul vortex to get more gems sound familiar? Loosing 150 gem tart to get some "free" gems is funny. To the other players :mad:

Soulstone of wolfs is good but not tier 1 in my books. The free chaff is not so great bonus. Howl in battles is good but not so huge bonus either. Magic lamp should be tier 1. If you are first in const 8 there is good chance to keep the djinn long enough for him to pay it back. You can't give him gear becouse you never know when he goes puff (Or is it ffup when he disappears, whos knows?) but he is very potent combat caster whitout any stuff. The sword of Aurgelmer should definedly be tier 1. It is one of the very few ways to protect your army from enemy evocations on turn 1 when attacking. And it is 50% protection. Amon hoteph is very strong tier 2 item. It may even belong to tier 1. Same goes for the dwarven hammer.

I havent found many good uses for armor of virtue. Maybe i have gotten something wrong whit it? Not so good for protection and the dude can still be one shotted. Down it goes ;)

Tome of gaia should be whit the other +2 boosters in tier 2. The ankh Also protects mages from death at turn 1. It should be tier 2. What is hammer of mountains doing here? Test to see if readers are awake? Some CBM stuff?

Twin spears are are crap. Together they are even more crap. - 8 to attack and no shield is inferior to almost any reasonable combo. The one with call horror have some value. Down goes the other. Im not too sure about the axes either. i almost never use them. The flailing hands is good for combat caster and should be at tier 3. The summit has 12 attack which is very usefull for some cases. It is also good weapon by other stats too. Tier 3 stuff.

Igor Konhelm's tome has storm power 5 which is guite enought to move it out of tier 5. There are some items in tier 5 which are not very powerfull but are so cheap that they should be used. Holger the Head, Percival the Pocket Knight, O'al Kan's Sceptre, Winter Bringer and Carcator the Pocket Lich belong to that list. Percival and Holger are both guite good in assasinations. Used by defender or attacker. I have even once seen them go against each other in in one fight :D

It is quite funny to see the items that were once concidered to be game breakingly good at the bottom of the forge list :D Clam will pay it self back in 15 turns. So if u expect the game to go on longer than that you should forge it.

Alchemist stone can really help if some globals are cast or if someone desides to start the apocalypse too soon :D

Keep up the good work :up:

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

ExHeretic, your changes (and their reason) are almost the same as mine and you actually had the time to explain them, thanks.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

Now that i have given it a bit more thought i definitely think that dwarven hammer should be tier 1 (forged ASAP). The reason to this is the fact that before the nerf you forged brands with hammer an saved 2-4 gems per turn. Now if u get THE hammer you will forge rings and artifacts with it saving 10-20 gems every turn. Even if you wished for it it would probably pay itself back. Ofcourse there is the two even better hammers to wish for so not much sense in wishing for that one.

I started my x-mas break bit early this year so i have had much time to mumble some less usefull stuff with my bad english in the forums lately :D

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

CBM 1.7 removed the magic paths from Souless. So the ankh (and LaD) has lost a lot of value now, since it now won't save your mages as 'mages' anymore, as it now turns them into pathless souless commanders. (it will save their gear and gems though)

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

that's a great improvement.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

I'd move the Soulstone quite a bit down, free chaff is not a whole lot of worthy that late on.
I'd move the Aegis up, the Forbidden light up, the Horror Harmonica up (my favorite artifact), Amon Hotep down, never really found it useful, too expensive for my taste.

Never really found Gate Stone that useful either, definitely not game breaking imo. I rarely made that one, mostly because it's too expensive and requires a too high a path, but because it's too risky to use for my taste. I wouldn't dare use it on anything else than a Tartarian, equped with 2 elixers of life, bodyguards and a whole lot of SC support that jumps with the army to land on either on a big enemy army or a fort. Definitely wouldn't use it continuously. It's an awesome artifact but requires a too big an investment to use. I've seen hundreds of gems go puff with a few lucky spells.

I don't think anything besides The Challice is game breaking actually. Having most of the good ones can be I guess, Challice, Boots Of Plains, Forbiden Light, Sickle, Sceptre, Djin.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

Does anyone know what the twin axes actually does? There is no description on the dom3.servegame wiki. It must do something if it warrants a tier 4 rating?

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

Arm chopping I think, fear strength aaand MR?

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

One thing i should mention. Most of the talk about this list can be found on IRC, so if i seem hesitant to agree with anyone, a lot of times, the counterarguent has been pushed on IRC, and has convinced me.


yeah, i think Maer said he would be posting this to the wiki. unless you mean linking each artifact. that is a lot of work. its easy enough to get there. lol

yeah there should be, but i like 5 tiers

there's a couple reason i still have it at T1
1) not all games ban farming. i personally dont because you just need to have scouts to stop it so its not that exploitable.
2)the sickle doesn't need to get the kill to get gems. a unit with the aegis, a brand, (not sure about spells) but its better at farming D gems than you think.
3) indy barb/knight/everything else attacks= 30death gems. win.


I origionally had soulstone at T2, but i that was one of the first major issuse that people had with this. and i tend to agree with it at T1 now. Upkeep free wolves all game. the sheer number of free chaff this thing gives you is amazing. and if you can farm the sickle, this is the item to use with that.

Magic Lamp is not T1 because it is not something you can rely on. someone *will* reforge it. its great, but not gamechanging because its unreliable.

I'm afraid your argument for amon hotep and aurgelmer actually reinforce where i put them. they are not items that will change the game, but they are a huge benefit. you can stil only put amon hotep on 1 guy. if the resistance against the sickle is expressed more i might have to move it down. aurgelmer and amon hotep are pretty comparable to the rest of T2 i think. dimensional rod, gift of kurgi, tome of high power etc. I'll think about the dwarven hammer.

I've had a lot of people ask to put the armor as T1, but i left it down because of the fact that you can still 1 shot someone. its still pretty damn good for keeping people alive.

Tome of gaia is not on the same level as the T2 boosters because they are in a slot that isnt there easily. black book of secrets saves a ring for tart summoning, forbidden light is obvious enough, and dimensional rod is too. there is already misc boosters for E and N.

Hammer of the Mountains is an artifact. CBM made it one several versions ago. (1.5 i think?) check it out. i love it. it does 100damage.

Ankh is no where near as good with CBM 1.7 its no longer T1 like it used to be, or even T2.

twin spears. they might do to go down. of course the thing i've used them with is a rudra. which solves all those problems. but thats not exactly fair. maybe i will move just the D one down. the axes are much better.

I like flailing hands where they are. not on the same level as T3 imo.

i really dont think storm power 5 is enough to move it out of the super-niche catagory.

and yes, the rest of those items are indeed worth forging. but they really dont do much. hence the yeah i agree

yeah super niche basically. or for LA ryleh. they love it

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

I was already bit wondering how you came up with so good list :) It feels too well balanced and objective to be made by one person. But there was explanation behind it :D

Yes i mean linking every artifact. No i would not do it my self ;)

I think the status of the sicle depends on the farming question. If you can farm with it then its t1 if not down it goes. On my list atleast.

The lamp might be at the right place in the top of tier 2. I mean i would make it right after most of the t1 stuff.

I would still swich places for aurgelmer and soulstone. Im not huge fan of overtax strategies and on battlefield those wolfs are pretty bad. Aurgelmer still gives that 50% protection from everything at turn 1. Its benefit will ofcource go down with time when the SC's start to dominate the game. But as long as there is armies that huge protection benefit stays.

I think you are right about amon hoteph and tome of gaia. Good arguments for both ;)

I was not aware of the nerf on Life after death. I guess it has something to do with free undead chaff and reseach :D Anyway that nerf moves ankh down to t4 or even t5 and rain of stones up to t1 :D

If twin spears are only good with rudra then that makes them bit niche right?

Storm is very often cast in battles by many nations.

The smaller stuff at the bottom is mostly at right place i just wanted to point out they are not so bad and have uses too. Im trying to say they have good price/value ratio.

Anyway these are just my personal opinions and can/should be ignored anyway :D

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

btw, Maer was kind enough to add this to the wiki, with links to each artifact's page for easy access.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

Now if only he could do this for regular magic items as well...

(what, me, a greedy lazy bum ? Why the very idea !)

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

I sort of considered it, and there's no telling what we'll get up to in the future if we get bored, but tbh there are a ****ton of items. I was shocked to discover that there were 72 artifacts, I don't even want to think about all the other items...

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

Plus with many of the other items, there are so many more situations to cover. A Starshine Skullcap might be great for Arco, but is useless to a nation without astral.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

One could make a giant table to account for that. Nations by Items, with a usefulness score in each cell. The downside being the completely ludicrous amount of work.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

Indeed. I would hesitate to call Priestyman's post a "guide," as it provides little guidance. Index might be a better term. A short description of the more important artifacts would work wonders. As it is, telling a newb the Chalice is a game changer without also telling them about the utility of Tartarians doesn't help them any. Instead, they just get an item that seems inferior to a global that does the same only more and in every province!

Edit: Seems like somebody needs to work on a Better Know an Artifact segment!

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

When I noticed this list got posted to the wiki, I decided to follow my own advice. You can see my work here: http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Artifact_Hints .

I added descriptions to all Tier-1 through Tier-3 artifacts. I also combined Tiers 2 and 3 and then divided them into 3 sections: Important boosters, Important gear for SC's, and Miscellaneous. I rely on descriptions to provide context for relative worth and usefulness. Tiers 4 and 5 were given humorous renames, but no descriptions. Finally, I got rid of all CBM changes to match the rest of the wiki. I included a place for the significant changes done by the latest flavor, but I am not going to be writing it.

Edit: Comments welcome, as our pointing out mistakes. I double checked the entire list, but these things do happen.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

What would probably be most useful is that if you have any tips to share about an artifact, just put them in that artifact's particular entry.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

I'm actually kind of offended that you altered our page so radically. i'll probably be asking maer to help me edit it back to where it was in some cases. its our work. It was clearly stated that we wrote it with CBM 1.71 in mind. if you want to make your own page for vanilla thats cool. I appriciate the descriptions, but your tone in the article is pretty grating.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

ok, that drivel is deleted.

i'll get my list back up there when i get the chance

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

Seriously Omnikron, wtf? I can understand if you don't think its accurate, but don't **** with our guide/tier list/whatever. There are plenty of guides on the wiki that are written with CBM in mind, so that excuse doesn't work. If you have issues with it then make your own damn list.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

You are offended? You think I spent 8 or more hours of my evening to offend you? If I wanted to do that, I would have just insulted you here, which I never did. Instead, my work gets dismissed by you as "drivel," which is offensive. My writing style is my writing style, if you find it grating, sorry. Others find it hilarious.

I did my changes with one purpose in mind, to create a more informative list for the Dominions community, because I enjoy Dominions, enjoy Dominions strategy, and want others to have an easier time to come to that enjoyment. My improvements had numerous clear advantages, the descriptions being paramount, and the rearrangement into purpose categories. The problem was never that your list was "wrong," but it gave readers no information on how to properly use the Artifacts. The Chalice without a Tatarian summoner looses a lot of its utility, for example.

Though, really, we appear to have a fundamentally different conception of what a wiki is. I learned from wikipedia that they are COMMUNITY collaborations to create informative content. The fact anybody can edit any page is not just so somebody can catch a contributor's grammar mistakes. It is there so others can make improvements, sometimes deleting and re-arranging content whole scale until consensus is achieved. For example, back when Troika's Bloodlines was released, I probably wrote half of the early content. Today, my words probably count for less than 10% of that Wikipedia article. I certainly never received any personal credit for that work.

Admittedly, there is a place for posting individuals work and not having it be rewritten in typical wiki style, but the fact your list got a front page link (which is how I came upon it) and has very little original input (other than the ordering and the description of the Tiers), it never occurred to me your list was such a work. Sorry, it just didn't. I saw your list on the wiki as nice start but with room for improvements, which I invested my time to do. I was kind of hoping you guys would be impressed with the direction I took it. I stand sorely disappointed.

I had sent Lch a PM explaining my thoughts and suggesting a compromise position which would serve the community best and let you two keep your list intact, but then noticed he has not been here since September and I have no idea if he is still the lead behind the wiki. I'll post my suggestion in the discussion section later, probably tomorrow as it is now late.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

Look, adding descriptions and pointers for use is one thing, but radically altering the entire format is not something you do to someone's work w/o so much as a "by your leave." If you want to add your descriptions and pointers then please do so. Just don't go and completely change the format and focus of the guide please.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

I put most of Omnikron's descriptions in each artefact description page.
Thanks Omni for writing these.
I believe Omnikron's list is infinitely better than the original list, because it explains why each item is useful. Without that, the list is mostly useless.
Ranking of items and listing them either by category or tier is more debatable.
In my opinion, the tier listing is of rather limited use, and Omnikron's organisation was way better.
As for the actual ranking for each item, it's a case by case thing.

Anyway, the wiki is collaborative work, so it is not the place to put "someone"'s list. It's also linked directly from the wiki first page, so the best list should be linked from there. If you want to have two lists, definitely make two pages, but link to Omnikron's from the wiki'ss front page because its organisation and content are more useful than the tiered list.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

Agree that Wiki is not a place for cookie-junkies and credit mongers, the forum is a far better place for people to put a guide with their name on it.

I can only applaud when someone improves the content on the wiki.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

Thank you LDiCesare. That is how i intented to end up have it looking like. i saved omnikron's descriptions so that i could add them to the link like that.

I dont know about the front page link. Maer put that there.

and yes, catagory/tier is debatable. and i'm debating it.

I might have been a little less drastic if omnikron had you know, asked, before he rewrote the entire thing.

I think now the list is in a pretty good spot. its still the same list, but omnikron's useful descriptions are now on each individual item's page. so thank you again Omnikron for the descriptions and LDiCesare for adding them to the item pages.

oh, and to get a hold of 1ch i suggest IRC (sometimes) or asking for her email from sombre or llamabeast

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

Is there a link to OmikronWarrior Vanilla list/ranking, too?

Hope it didn't die in data nirvana.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

My wiki coding is saved in the history of edits section. Here is a direct link: http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki?title...ts&oldid=23485 .

If that wasn't enough, you better believe I did my version in notepad before copying and pasting onto the wiki.

Which makes the immaturity of the parties involved really obnoxious (and by parties, I really mean Maerlande).

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

But why replace it rather than add your own list as well? Easily separated as: CBM / VANILLA or the like. Or post your suggestion to the authors and ask for their opinion?

I'd be pretty upset if someone replaced my Agartha guide with their own on the wiki for example, even if I myself thought it was more up to date or better I'd feel belittled if not asked.

I do agree your way to organise it is better though (exept I beleive CBM is dominant enough to be considered the norm these days, but that's a whole different discussion), so the issue isn't the quality of your work but rather the insensitivity in it's execution.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

Since you asked nicely...

Simply put, I did not see the list as a "guide," or even a personal work that somebody might have pride in it. It was just to basic in purpose, only slightly above a page that discusses various magic paths, which are open season for anyone who wants to edit to improve them. Sorry, Priestly, thats just how it came across. When I linked to it from the front page, I thought of ways to improve it, and did so. I guess I could have asked, but I had the time then and quite frankly, nothing was lost. I then linked to my changes from this message board to get feedback. Now, the original list is still there on the wiki in edit histories. So, if people thought that the board was best served by having 2 separate lists, that would be easy to accomplish. I certainly did not see my changes as being the end game. I saw them as...

original index...> my improvements...> Further improvements.

I disagree with CBM being dominate, but that is another discussion. However, the real reason for making the front-page linked articles relevant to unmodded Dominions is stability. CBM updates, sometimes drastically, roughly every 6 months. Players do not always use the latest version. While there is certainly a place for CBM notes throughout, I think trying to keep up with the various changes from version to version is losing battle. Take Baalz's CBM focused guide on Machaka. He recommends a Pretender strategy of getting Earth-3 on a pretender to build a Dwarven hammer as soon as construction-2 is reached to start spamming Fever Fetishes. Ooops. Contributors to the wiki just cannot keep up with the changes to say nothing of trying to document the many different iterations of CBM. They can build a database around the base game, with supplementary content for those who use CBM. Maybe the original index is such content.

Well, my relatives just arrived for holidays, so I have to go entertain, but I hope this sort of answered your query.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

Certainly. I see the logic of it (though I also see a grudge that could have been avoided by a short PM), and in general I agree with your approach to the wiki concept.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

If you're on a wiki and your getting uptight about your work being edited and improved, you need to go to NotAWiki and post there because you are missing the point.

@PriestyMan:

You gave permission when you posted on a collaborative editing project ;P

@Omnikon

Your intro was amazingly bad - why bother claiming personal credit?

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

IMO: the problem wasn't adding descriptions. If you had just done that, it would be fine. The problem was making it vanilla instead of CBM.

Virtually every user contribution to the wiki is CBM (1.6 or later in most cases). The only vanilla content is the stuff that's *autogenerated* from the game code. (lch extracts game stats directly from the gamecode or equivalent as i understand it). If it was possible to make it do this for CBM instead, it probably would have been done. (Note, this is why capital only units don't show up on nation pages iirc, because the auto-extraction is failing to connect that those units belong to that nation since they're assigned to a site, not the nation).

Anyway, when virtually every actual contribution is CBM that tells you something about the wiki's userbase and about the 'suitability' of the wiki for CBM content.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

Wow. I use the wiki all the time and did not realize that it was CBM. I was fairly sure Ive used player provided content that wasnt. I took it for granted that everything was "vanilla unless specified otherwise".

If that is true though, that it will be a "cbm unless stated otherwise" then Id guess the "Official Dominions 3 Wiki" label might be rescinded.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

Ok, well i'm less mad now than i was yesterday.

first of all, Omnikron, i can see what you were thinking, but it really really bothers me that you rewrote the entire thing. if you want to ADD to it, like the descriptions for example, be my guest. if you want to REWRITE it, make your own page. I clearly stated at the top that it was written for CBM 1.71. i wrote it for cbm, i do not see it as improvement if you remove my content.

Cthulu - so are all the nation guides that people have written and posted on the wiki fair game to be rewritten?

GP- I highly doubt shrapnel will bother to change anything. and 1ch certainly wont since she's a big supporter of CBM. and like was said above, all the stats and costs are vanilla since they are extracted automaticaly.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

Agreed, if its a cbm version guide, then it should be labeled, and its better to put vanilla version on the main page rather than cbm version. But it is really impolite to foundamentally change others work as Omikron did, he should create his own page, and I'm sure people will support his version eventually~

As for the rank of this list, I'm sure there will be much controversy, but no need to change list until a conclusion has been made......Unless there are something everyone missed

I think Sceptre of Dark Regency is overrated, because it is not irreplaceable like other tier 1 items(or can't be replaced massively at least).

Magic lamp, well, its kinda useless since everyone might take it away from you anytime....But its path just too good, so someone might find a way to keep it for himself. A standard method is wish lamp after summon djinn, or vice versa. Either way, your enemy will have to kill your djinn or wish it rather than just forge a lamp, for the djinn will only disappear in the turn the "summon djinn" casted. A lower cost method which mummify djinn are nolonger accessible in 3.24, but you can still get its path by invest vast amount of D gems, you know how:D Anyway, the rate of magic lamp are debatable, depend on how much you want it.

Crown of the Ivy King can be a least version of soul stone, in time it will provide considerable chaff. But it is fair to put it into tier 3, though.

Igor Könhelm's Tome are surely underestimated IMHO. Yeah it give storm power 5 which will be really useful for SCs, but like Crown of the Ivy King, it can be used in a better way. combine with a lightning rod, you can summon 14 corpse construct with 1 A, its pretty easy to mass hundreds of lightning immune 14MR walking dead that can be further buffed,though certain path is needed. So its not totally suck isn't it?

Sword of Justice&Injustice: As Corinthian mentioned, its really useful for those bless nation with only H2 or even H1(Hinnom), one prophet is surely not enough. Btw, did sword of injustice really cast Protection of the Sepulchre?

O'al Kan's Sceptre is AN damage, plus small area stun with some 20+ fatigue damage,can't say its totally useless.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

yeah, Igor's tome isn't bad. so much chaff for so cheap is always welcome.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

Sure, if you can make it better? Seriously, that's the idea of a wiki. People contribute collaboratively to make it better. You writing a guide, me writing a guide, my mum writing a guide, and my dog writing a guide isn't working collaboratively.

Neither of you seem really interested in doing that - blanking the page when someone edits it is just silly, but so is the intro claiming moral superiority over all comers.

An other point though: There are multiple strategies for a nation, and different strategies probably deserve separate listings, but only really room for one generic artifacts tier list. Adding multiple lists actually detracts from the benefit of posting something where new players can find it.

For the same reason, if you want to post the 5th Mictlan bless build, making building on something in that space that has already been done is a good idea.

Re: The Artifact Tier List
 

I was strongly leaning one direction on all this. Until the guides was brought up. That is an excellent point. There are guides which are considered jokes, but often for a reason such as the guide being (and saying) it was written for solo play but being used as a joke suggestion for mp play. Id hate to see solo guides to be "fixed" or made "more generally useful" by being rewritten for mp, or mp with cbm. Or vice versa.

I havent seen lch wade in on this yet, but I think the general wiki rules on the net are:
A) a wiki article is meant to be community edited (altho some wiki's specify only certain people to that community editing)
B) if you want to make a point that is not edited it should be a link to something outside of the wiki editing tools
The "advantage" (arguably) of wiki is that the back and forth editing is supposed to eventually settle into the middle with descriptions that are acceptable to both sides of a subject. That's why its a wiki and not a blog.

Guides on the wiki being wiki-edited might be interesting but I suspect they wouldnt settle into an agreement any more than the discussions about those nations do here on the forum. It might work better to switch to having a wiki page for each nation, which discusses the nation in general informational terms and LINKS to individual guides. That way the wiki page would swing back and forth eventually getting rid of words like "best" or "sucks" to describe a nation but the links to guides hosted elsewhere would reflect different peoples individual opinions about how a nation should be played.