Fighting Salamanders as Eriu (cbm 1.71)
 

I'm playing a SP game on a No Independents RanDomized map. I'm Eriu, and there doesn't seem to be a lot I can do about the Impossible Abysian's salamander spam backed by fire evocations. My planned strategy focused on Fog Warriors and Mass Protection, but salamanders counter both handily; I need Fog Warriors to even have a ghost of a chance in most fights. Since it's NI, the Abysians are wholly focused on their national troops, including salamanders; any given army is about 1/3 fire-breathing SOBs.

I tried running the game again using Baalz strategy guide, running an E9N4 Lord of the Forests and using lots of Sidhe lords... Unfortunately it didn't work very well. I experienced great initial success before the salamanders started appearing in numbers and I proceeded to lose most of the Sidhe Lords in about 3 turns flat, even with Resist Elements. My nature income was unfortunately extremely poor (only +5 even with 12 provinces haruspex'd) so I have great difficulty replacing any equipped Lords. Next I tried using Shishis, but after much scratching of my head I couldn't figure out any worthwhile/forgeable equipment for them, as I had been similarly unlucky with finding Earth sites. So I just stuck Dancing Tridents on them... Sadly, they fared only little better than the Sidhe Lords.

I've also tried simply massing Javelins and Slingers, as the Salamanders aren't very tough for their cost. Unfortunately, while this tended to wound a great number of them, it proved in no way a workable counter with Fire mages throwing out Fire Clouds and the like.

I'm rather short of ideas unfortunately; the only thing I can think of is taking a Fountain of Blood as a pretender and producing demon troops, or focusing on battlefield evocations instead of what I viewed as a thematic means of playing Eriu (focusing on illusion magic rather than thunderstrike spam).

P.s. I'm playing with my own mod that reduces the cost of most troops (less so for Sacreds and other high end troops like Salamanders).

Re: Fighting Salamanders as Eriu (cbm 1.71)
 

I really don't understand your problem with Sidhe Lords. just forge them cheap fire resistance gear, say fire plate and burning pearl, and you're good to go. I guess you'll need fire on your pretender if you're using a no indies mod, so just get a rainbow like Eriu should get anyway. a few Sidhe Lords with frost band+vine shield(or whatever)+your fire resistance gear(to make them totally immune) and you're set.

Re: Fighting Salamanders as Eriu (cbm 1.71)
 

Of course with a rainbow, you won't have E9Nx so you'll need armor and regen/reinvig gear as well, making the thugs much less cost-effective.

Re: Fighting Salamanders as Eriu (cbm 1.71)
 

Yeah. I don't see a practical method beyond getting Fire on the pretender and hoping to get enougH Fire economy going to forestall a total loss to Salamanders. But I tried Eriu without the Earth Bless and found that the reinvigoration was almost mandatory - I don't like to send thugs alone even against PD, but even in pairs and threes they were racking up huge fatigue. Getting the reinvigoration necklace is another 10 nature gems which doubles the effective gem cost of the thugs (since they're limited by nature gems for the shields.)

I guess I could go balls-out and forget the shield, just spam lots of Sidhe Lords with frost brands ala Storm Generals.

P.S. Is there any reason that Vanheim can't do the exact same strategy as Eriu with its Vanjarls? They are very similar units, and might even pull it off better (shields of the accursed?)

Re: Fighting Salamanders as Eriu (cbm 1.71)
 

master druid with E9N4F4 is very doable, can also add a few more paths. you don't need him awake either, though it will certainly help your gem income(especially fire). dormant will also be fine, just not imprisoned. also, speaking of Salamanders and Abysia in general, take C3 scales if you foresee them to be a problem, it will help a lot as long as you're fighting in your dominion instead of his. besides, even with only E4/6 or so you can still use Sidhe Lords as thugs, just take a few more than otherwise and you'll be fine even with a bit of fatigue.

Re: Fighting Salamanders as Eriu (cbm 1.71)
 

IIRC, in Baalz's original design it was the the Sidhe Lord's N, giving them Barkskin that let them go with just Brand/Shield. Without that, or without the E9 Mistform popped too easily. Vanjarls have blood, which is a lot less use for low end thugging.
Of course, against Abysia, Barkskin doesn't help.

Re: Fighting Salamanders as Eriu (cbm 1.71)
 

well, since you're most likely adding a fire plate to get fire immunity, I really fail to see the need for Barskin or whatever. also, if you insist on E9 you can still get it on a Master Druid rainbow, on an enchantress too if you also want higher A+S instead of higher N.

no idea what Vanjarls have to do with anything but blood is a bad path for blood, as blood magic doesn't have any useful self buffs beyond blood vengeance which requires blood 9, and either way all the blood buffs cost 100 fatigue.

Re: Fighting Salamanders as Eriu (cbm 1.71)
 

I'm surprised nobody has suggested Rain yet, which is a nice spell for hurting Abysia if they are relying on anything to do with fire.

It's only Evo 2 and W2 requirements (1 gem), so 25% of your Bean Sidhe's can cast it. And it both doubles the fatigue for all fire spells, and helps cool those heat aura's down a bit.

If you can get to Const 6, then you can forge Water Bracelets (or maybe take a minor W4 bless and get Water Robes at Const4) which allows your Bean Sidhe's to cast both Grip of Winter in battles, and cast the remote spell Wolven Winter, both of which will hurt Abysia a lot. And cold is double hurt for those salamanders, as they have heat power that boosts stats in hot provinces, but that reverses in cold ones.

(also, a frost brand + elemental fortitude will make your thugs 100%CR, and so can ignore the effects of Grip of Winter, and the +2 fatigue penalty for fighting in a Cold 3 province if you've cast a few Wolven Winters)

Re: Fighting Salamanders as Eriu (cbm 1.71)
 

I was responding to the question about Vanjarls using the same strategy.

For fighting Abysia, you'll want FR, which probably means fire plate, rendering Barkskin uneeded. I was speaking more generally. The advantage of Sidhe Lords is that they can be quite effective with minimal gear if they've got the full E9Nx bless. As you put more gear on them they become more of an investment and you can field fewer of them. Without the bless, they'll need armor + reinvig + regen even when you're not fighting Abysia, which means you won't be able to take full advantage of them.

The other thing I see is that if you're relying on your pretender for FR gear, you're only going to get 1 FR thug/turn. I'd be more tempted to use at least some Tuatha and kit them out more fully. You're investing more gems into them. Go all the way and try to keep them alive.

The other thing to remember about Sidhe Lords is they really shine as raiders, not against armies with mage support. Send the standard ones, without 100%FR, into his backfield. Take lightly defended provinces and vanish. Fight his main armies with the Tuatha and troops and lightning. Cut his income with Sidhe raiders, until he can't replace his losses.

That's just theory. I don't really know how the Sidhe fare against Abysian PD. It may not work at all, but I think it fits their purpose better.

Re: Fighting Salamanders as Eriu (cbm 1.71)
 

I'm surprised slingers aren't able to do enough damage. Have you tried screening them with some infantry to soak up the evocs while you chew up the salamanders?

Re: Fighting Salamanders as Eriu (cbm 1.71)
 

Seriously, Salamanders?
They have like 20 encumbrance, any chaff will stop them And kill them once they pass out.

As for Abysian infantry, easiest way to deal with them would be destruction + archers early on. Once that protection goes does they are pretty easy to kill with archers, slow and no shield. What ever is left can be easily knocked down by your even most crappy troops due to their naturally low defense.
Not sure if Eriu has E2 mages doe.:)

Re: Fighting Salamanders as Eriu (cbm 1.71)
 

The Slingers actually can damage the salamanders, but between the other (sling-immune) Abysian infantry and the mages casting evocations, they arn't effective or fast enough tob e anything more than an irritant.

@Executor - Yeeeeah um no. They do 20 AOE1 damage that never misses. 2-3 kills per attack. Any strategy that relies on losing a minimum of 10 troops per salamander (say 5 with fog warriors) just plain isn't going to work.

Even with Fata Morgana, Phantasmal Army(s) and Mists of Deception, my troops wore out before the salamanders do.

Re: Fighting Salamanders as Eriu (cbm 1.71)
 

2E2W allows the fireward spell. I think Eriu's cap mage can get 1E1W, water ring + earth boots on one can cast it, 1 of them with each large army should take care of things. Fireward is ench 4 or there about. Army of gold might be abit deep on the research tree and only your pretender can cast natively.

Just pack your thugs together and have them cast elemental fortitude, then have the mage cast fireward on them to get a pack of fire immune thugs. If I remember correctly magic damage doesn't pop mistform unless it does damage (so 100% FR means fire won't pop your mistform, do test it though).

Or, even just fireward on your army will hugely improve their effectiveness against abysia, though probably not enough to overcome AI resource bonus if you go toe to toe (maybe setting up a lab in a swamp province and high conj access to animal horde can come close if you have good N income).

Mechanical giant also aren't bad either, seeing how your pretender can make them...

Make sure you drop rain to cut heat and fire evoc down by a ton too.

Re: Fighting Salamanders as Eriu (cbm 1.71)
 

Thunderstrike/wrathful skies is always a crowd pleaser

Ghost wolves/false horrors + sleep clouds - with an E9 bless and soothings songs you can put skellispam to shame. Storm + storm power and every sidhe can spam chaff all day, and of course Tuatha don't even need that crutch.

Clockwork horrors (toss in iron bane for infantry), buff them with haste and script attack large monsters.

Bows of war - eye of aiming + eagle eyes and Sidhe have a ridiculous precision, script fire large enemies and you should mow them down quite fast. If necessary hit and run from behind your PD (eagle eyes, fire X4, retreat).

Dragon master + cave drakes buffed with regen & fire ward - salamanders will pass out long before the drakes.

Re: Fighting Salamanders as Eriu (cbm 1.71)
 

W+E=resist fire，though you may need a E booster on bean sidhe for a massive fire ward

Re: Fighting Salamanders as Eriu (cbm 1.71)
 

Thunderstrike might work well here. Abysians pack a lot of gold into a small surface area. Every square you zap is a toasted salamander and/or three infantry, worth hitting. And their high encumberance means the shockwave should pile on effective fatigue on the neighbors.

Probably set your mages and slingers way back, slingers set to fire and flee, mages with "retreat" after they fire their spells. Don't stand and fight the pile of metal.