CBM 1.8 released
 

The latest and brightest release from the workshops of QM et-al has been released and if I might add, contains many many cool additions and tweaks.

Here's the original release thread.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Snif, too bad Pangaea didn't recieve any buffs.

Lord of the Wild still doesn't spread dom like most of the other titans

Carrion Dragon is just as bad as it has been from the start of the game (at least the other dragons have got higher protection).

Carrion Woods is still practically impossible (especially for LA Pangaea) to get up.

Ah well, should have been bringing up these things earlier.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Post it over at the other forum. I guess QM will fix it.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

No thanks. While there are some of the best dom3ers and *very* nice people over there, there are also some of the worst scumbags internet has spawned. I'll rather not make myself a target for their bile throwing; if they spit even on people like Edi, then what do they do to mere mortals? I do not want to find out.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Bile throwing only occurs when toolery and trolling is detected. Honest and helpful suggestions are perfectly fine.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Heh, I knew that would draw Sombre from his hiding place :p Right, right, "only occurs when toolery and trolling detected". Like changing Edi's name to "Edi is a tool" after he registered on your forums? You Sombre think I would believe that? You sure wouldn't do that to somebody who doesn't like your bile throwing, and has expressed it multiple times, when you did it to an influental member of the community, who actually tried to make peace with you? Yeah sure, and I also believe you saw some cows fly yesterday :p

Anyway, why don't you Sombre ask your account to be released from the ban? You actually think *anybody* believes TheConway isn't Sombre :rolleyes: Just because Llamabeast is cool enough to close his eyes rather than burn his friend doesn't mean everybody else too hadn't figured out this a long time ago already :) It would be great if you Sombre could update your mods (even if it was to tell people not to use the outdated mods on this forum, but to head to z7... forums to get the updated ones). I am pretty sure if you just *ask* you'd get your access back, without having to hide behind a silly alter ego :) However, I understand your problem, in addition to being an excellent modder and super genious in Dom3 (only a fool would try to deny either of those) you would actually have to act like a human being, and that would be too hard, right?

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

You still seriously think I'm sombre? /sigh, while I have a certain amount of sympathy for him, I am not in fact an alt of his. He has stated that he has no wish to return, and AFAIK he has not. There really isn't a reason for him to. He has a place to host his mods and talk to people he actually respects. I actually agree with you that changing Edi's name was rather childish.

That said, calling edi an "influential member of the community" is a joke. The buglist is cool, and the DB is amazing for modding, but my standard for "influential member" requires more than 1 post every couple months. Take away posts he makes as a moderator and he's contributed very little to forum discussion for the last couple years. None of the mods have tbh.

RE: editing sombre's mods, he actually asked shrapnel to remove them from the site or post links to the dom3mods forums, and they basically gave him the runaround to the point where he simply decided "**** them" and people could just play outdated versions if they damn well pleased.
Edit: llama has actually taken the blame for this, so my info is wrong/outdated I guess.

Its fairly obvious that you haven't even lurked at the dom3mods forums much beyond the first couple weeks, so you can keep your opinions on them to yourself.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Actually the "Sombre's mods on Shrapnel" thing is my fault, I just haven't gotten around to sorting it out (although to be fair I was waiting for Sombre to give me a list of what he wanted me to do).

I also think the Edi thing was quite unfortunate, but the whole community pretty much told Sombre off for that IIRC.

I also feel I should defend Edi's awesomeness, as his DB is absolutely crucial for virtually all modding efforts.

Anyway, this is a bit off-topic, and what I really want to hear about is what people think of the new Machaka spells! (Several of them are mine.)

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Changing so many crosspath items to single path seems like a very major change. While I'm not going to play 1.7+ anyway, it would be interesting to know the reason for it (as it sort of reduces game diversity imo, or at least diversity between nations). Otherwise, all changes seem more or less logical in hammerless world.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Actually, the machaka spells look pretty awesome! Overall I think that this CBM will make them quite a different and better nation to play. The new marverni spells are a bit interesting too, though I'm not entirely sure if they really needed a buff. The predictable GoR/tart change might call for some rollbacks of previous tart nerfs imo. I actually am a little puzzled that there weren't any carrion woods changes, but that probably has a lot to do with no one posting about them where qm will really see.

I'm pretty sure that the changes to item paths were mostly to reduce the cost of items that were pretty much priced out by the hammer removal.

I'm sorry that you won't be playing any games with the new CBMs, if you want I can edit out the hammer removal or w/e specific bits you have issues with. I actually am surprised that there aren't more games with customized versions of CBM.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Heh, if you aren't Sombre, then who are you on Sombres forum? If you reveal that, and you are not Sombre, then I'll reveal who I am there so that you can kick me out from there ;)

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

he's not sombre and he doesn't even sound like Sombre. Perhaps more CBM discussion and less uninformed invective?

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Right, lets agree he is not Sombre then :) I actually posted one of the two CBM related posts into this thread. That was of course before I knew this thread was not supposed to be used for feedback about CBM 1.8, but that I should post into the cesspit :p

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Stay classy Jarkko. I think you have made your point. No reason to keep calling it names.

But I'm not sure if QM checks this forum. I think he does. But posting at the other forum does get a quicker reply. (And it makes it easier for him. He doesn't have to search all over the place for bugposts).

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Just for anyone reading this, feedback is more likely to come to qm's attention at the link Wraithlord provided. If you're afraid to post there, well, he might drop by here, but don't whine about your suggestions not being addressed.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Astral serpent - not astral anymore?
Crystal heart - not astral anymore?

Doesnt the word LORE ring any bells for QM, I wonder. I hope more people keep hosting 1.6

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

I believe that most of the low-end crosspath item changes are in order to make them worth forging without hammers. QM is actually much more concerned with theme than balance, and has resisted a lot of suggestions for thematic reasons, such as Ulm magic path buffs or drain immune iron priests in MA.

Frankly, the way people get on a ridiculously high horse over changes they don't immediately agree with or understand baffles me. Maybe you should try asking for the reasoning behind them and THEN decide whether you agree/disagree?

On top of that, editing CBM is obscenely easy if you know how to type and read the dom3 mod manual, so if you like parts of the mod but not others then you can easily customize it.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

What if I can't read? Discrimination!

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Did you ever forge these in MP? (In the postclam word).

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Actually QM's an extreme stickler for lore. I agree those two aren't ideal, but I'm sure he feels the same. There are heaps of changes he has refused to make because they're unthematic, even if it's quite marginal.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

The Conway, first of all, thanks for you offer to edit CBM to suit my needs. I'm not a modding guru myself and while I can probably revert mod changes myself if I need it, I will keep your offer in mind. However the problem here, as was stated during gemgen removal, is that most of this (sharapnel + dom3mods) community is attached to CBM and follow it's changes, so I don't think it will be possible to find enough people to play modded CBM game. Besides, many of the 1.8 changes were definitely made to compensate for 1.7 ones, while others are different (machaka ones for example). So deciding what to keep and what to throw is not that easy. That's why I'm going to stay with 1.6 for the time being as it's the most balanced variant imo.
Regarding hammer removal, I think the main reason was that they were no-brainers and so on, while my argument was that they are an important part as an investment tool. In one of my current games I have mediocre e income and good income of other gems and good research, so I reached con8 with only 2 hammers and possibility to forge 20 or so different uniques, including top-tier ones. I had to make tough decisions about spending the gems most economically while also trying to capture most of the arts as somebody else reached con8 a turn or two before me. So I fail to see hammers as no-brainers while they definitely increased the choices I had to make - without hammers I'd just forge everything I can with all the gems I have and that's all.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

I wonder whether at some point it might be worth making a version of CBM 1.8 which reinstates hammers, and partially undoes the item-cheapening/buffing of 1.8. Personally I think I will use the canonical 1.8, but it would be good if even hammer lovers could benefit from the other changes. The new national spells are fun!

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

a masochist version of cbm 1.81 would be welcomed, re-enabling hammer and reversing some price decrease for certain items.

Going through the price decrease list with hammer in mind:

-Amulet of missile prot looks fine at 5A

-Astral serpent can probably stay at 1N, I've never seen it used and there's too many other good misc items competing for slots.

-Staff of corrosion should be reverted to original price, 1w1f staffs is really damn good with hammer.

-Brimstone boots is tough to say, I've used and seen the rare ones at 1e1f, but then it has to compete with quick, birch, messenger and now chi, so seems okay at 1f.

-Elf bane at 1e seems okay.

-Moonblade 1h is good, still kinda expensive at 10S for what it does and const 6, I'd drop it to 5S even, so that it'll actually be used now and then.

-Bone armor can stay D4, D5 was definitely too much.

-Crystal shield should be reverted to 2e2s, I see it (and use it) often on clutch casters already.

-dusk dagger seems alright at 5s even with hammer frankly, as a specific counter to high prot.

-elemental armor looks fine at 1e1f.

-crystal heart probably okay at 1e.

-not sure about stone idol at 1e, I think actual usage in MP will be needed to really see how it pans out.

-Fenris pelt at 2N, seeing as its a low tier unique it doesn't really matter. I'd make it non-unique to be honest, in which case there might be niche uses for it.

-wraithsword looks good at 2D

-ice pebble at 1w const 6 hmmm... not quite sure on this one, I'd say revert to 10W to be safe.

-knife of the damned looks good at 5s.

-pocket ship looks okay at 5n5a.

-phoenix rod looks okay at 15F.

-shield of valor and silver hauberk looks good at 1A.

-spirit helm at 2a hmmm, probably good, 3A was too much.

-summer sword 1n1e looks good, though it may not bode well for wine and cauldron.

-Wraith crown at D4 looks good.

-shield of accursed at 1s1b hmmm... not sure on this one.

-wand of wild fire at F2, I'd say give it a shot.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Sorry, my intention was not to call any names. Last time I checked the z7 dom3mods forum main page the name "The Cesspit" had been placed at the top of the forums. I wasn't aware it hadn't been placed there by the forum owner (as for some childish reason I still seem to be believe). Many boring people, including me, tend to take written words seriously.

I never asked for a reply, but of course I certainly hope he will notice the post in this thread (it is after all the second post here) :) Like I already mentioned, I should have been commenting the stuff (commenting more strongly and coherently; I've commented on them elsewhere, even in threads QM have posted in, but I never took the effort to really make the point) earlier, and not just hope QM somehow telephatically would become aware of the things. My mistake.


Other than that, I definitively do like CBM1.8. There are bugs and typos in the new spells, but those should be easy enough to fix.

Possession (or however it is written in the mod) is a *very* heavy class spell for LA Ulm (turn a S1 70 gold mage with one pearl to a Dark Vine commander (two misc slots, for example Lucky charm and Ring of Regen) or a Demon Knight commander (full slots and heavy equipment even without any additions). For Bogarus too it can turn crappy old mages into something useful just before they die of old age (for whome it is no use to give boots of youth). For LA Man it is not a very useful spell, hard to figure out something useful that LA Man astral mages could transfer to.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Then buff astral serpent so it's worth using, without removing the ASTRAL part from it. Add MR or luck to it (lucky serpent, anyone?). Then it's just an improved amulet of luck or antimagic, which doesnt make amulets obsolete because nature has other uses.
And yes, I do forge crystal hearts in MP, in Kings of Drama, for my most valuable combat caster. Because some of us dont have fire/nature mages. Its a part of the lore - you know, crystal mages who combined earth and astral to create matrixes and hearts. Its a poor alternative, but an alternative anyway and I like it.
Anyway, with hammers still removed and lots of weitd stuff introduced, I guess I'll have to stick with 1.6 when I can.

Oh, and the SDR change, too. I am playing 1.7 now - my MA Abyssia isnt hurt by the lack of SDRs. Well maybe slightly. Other major blood nations will cope as well, I bet. These who didnt have major blood already will suffer... so much for the balance.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

And EA/MA Agartha lost their Umbrals thug. In exchange, now their move 1 troops would move through mountains faster, and their NNE troops eat even less supplies in mountains.

Perhaps make Umbrals a commander for EA and MA Agartha (LA won't need it that much).

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Frankly, the argument that the SDR change boned people from diversifying into blood is silly. It simply isn't like other paths where you can get a viable income via bootstrapping. If you don't have recruitable hunters you'll still get enough for your niche utility needs, maybe you'll have to get 1-2 more scouts. Still, if you're not a blood power it doesn't matter anyways since your income would suck regardless.

Niche items like astral serpent, crystal heart, etc. could indeed see some thematic additions to perhaps make them worth their cost. If you want to post them where qm is likely to see them I encourage you to do so.

edit: This is definitely something that should be looked at. You seem to have missed the new national spells though, and darkness with PD.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

>> Frankly, the argument that the SDR change boned people from diversifying into blood is silly. It simply isn't like other paths where you can get a viable income via bootstrapping.

Not true.
First, there are nations with recruitable b1 hunters; they are hit much worse than these with b2. These, in my opinion, are hardly hit at all.
Second, there are summons like Lamia queen and Asinja, they get b1 quite frequently. Of course, it was a costly way to get into blood, but it was an option. Now it's gone. Bad if you ask me.
And lastly, there's a big difference between 'your income sucks' and 'your income sucks big time' :)

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Those nations with recruitable B1s would be Lanka, Mict, and Van out of the actual good powers IIRC. The first two are the major offenders when it came to blood being OP in world w/o clams. Van I agree has major issues there, and you're not the only one who wants to give them a bit of a buff to compensate. As for the rest, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

I think you're overstating your case--a grand total of 3 of EA Agartha's trooptypes have move 1. They're much more mobile now between that and the national Gateway spell they got. Yeah, Umbral thug loss hurts, but it's not like Agartha's a one-trick pony. I've seen especially EA Agartha win a few games through simply reaching critical mass with their troops, which are darn hard to take down once they get going.

MA is definitely hurt more by the change, though cheaper statues/earlier Poison Golems help counteract that. Also GoR'ed Gargoyle thugs are significantly cheaper now. I mean, it wasn't exactly as if MA Agartha was lacking a thug chassis.

That being said, Umbrals can almost certainly be reverted back to 2 gems now.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

SDR removal simply made slaves have a large opportunity cost, and makes it a lot harder to get them. Even if you have b2 recruits. (As these can now fail to find slaves (at least in MA, and LA), which wasn't possible if you gave them a SDR before).

A SDR would also improve the amount of slaves found. Which is also gone. So you now need more mage/fort turns and more gold lost for the same amount of slaves.

Note that the SDR isn't truly gone. You can get the same effect as the SDR with the blood booster items. But that is more expensive. But could be worthwhile if you have a forge boost unit.

Sure it makes it harder to get into blood. But isn't blood supposed to be a bit hard? Being the evil choice after all.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Quick question:

So you can't GoR a tart any more. can you possession a tart?

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

I think you can't as Possession uses the GoR as a nextspell.

But this is something that could be tested :)

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Lanka and Mictlan have a recruitable B2, so they are not hit as hard as one would hope to. This nerf has only affected these who already struggle, which is kinda lame.

Soyweiser - will you consider getting into blood by using blood boosters as SDRs? By the time you will have a half-decent blood economy, the game will be over. Some costs are just too high. :)

I, myself, was glad to see SDRs removed at first. With clams gone, blood is absolutely broken (as in overpowered). But I am playing MA Agartha now, and I dont miss SDRs - recruitable B2 hunters are as good as ever. This nerf failed, imho.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

You can't Possession a tart, no.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Lanka and Mictlan have b2 as cap only mages iirc.

(Sure lanka gets 1/3 b2 on their mage priest, but that isn't that reliable).

And as you now pay more for each blood slave as blood nation you have less gold for other stuff. (And most blood nations still need a lot of god).

But I agree that the b1 only nations are hit the worst and should get some sort of boost.

And now you cannot bootstrap yourself into a large blood econ without serious effort, if you don't have any blood. Not a huge problem.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Hi there!

I m curious can somebody, who already tried the mod, tell me what kind of requirements the spell Possession has? Is it very late in the research tree? It sounds very powerfull and may can be lead to exploit? For example saving design points by choosing the crone and then turn her into something SC like?

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Anyone mind explaining why exactly TheConway suddenly got banned?
I certainly can't find any inflammatory post, personal attack or anything of such nature that would even be considered an infraction.

I though that there were certain forum rules and regulations here that are supposed to be followed and that people don't just get banned for no apparent reason, so am I wrong?

If he in fact is an alt, which is quite improbable as I doubt Sombre would come back to these forums, and behave, why did you wait so long to react in the first place?

It seems to me that TheConway just got banned for no apparent reason, no explanation and as it seems probably at the whim of another member, is that all it takes to be banned here?

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

I've tried the Possession (along with quite a few other spells) and I think this is how it works:
- It kills the caster. It doesn't turn them into anything.
- It's enchantment 0, which needs 1 astral magic to cast.
- Cost is 1 astral pearl.

So practically Possession is a Gift of Reason which kills the caster. No magic or stats is given to the target of GoR.
Since it's so cheap, it can be used to GoR targets of Wish, for example. Nice and cheap as the astral nation doesn't need to have any nature on their god. It is available for only 3 nations though, so not much is changed.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

>> And now you cannot bootstrap yourself into a large blood econ without serious effort, if you don't have any blood. Not a huge problem.

Less diversity and fever viable tactics is not a huge problem? I beg to differ.

By the way, it was a 'serious effort' before the SDR ban. Now its a 'huge effort that wont pay off'.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Trumanator's alt.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

[quote=Joelz;770447]It is super for LA Ulm. A 70 gold S1 mage becomes a demon knight commander (for example, works on devils too, etc) with full slots for the amazing price of one pearl; get them while they still are hot ;)

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Sorry Dimaz, but I still don't see how that explains it.
If anything it just means that his alt was already well known to everyone (well except me it seems) which meant they purposely chose to let him stay.

So why the ban now?

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

I think Executor has a good point. I also don't seem to recall any abuse coming from TheConway, on the contrary (not that I pretend omnipotent knowledge of all things posted here).

Now, I can't help but wonder why was he banned so abruptly :confused:

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

I don't know why he hasn't been banned as an alt before and it's offtopic here anyway. I think all he has to do to unban his main acc is to ask forum administration but that's highly unlikely to happen. Unfortunately.
Back to the SDR question, well, probably moving them to b2 after gemgen removal is the best solution. Again, not in this life. Unfortunately.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Dimaz, I think your comments are good feedback. Did you try to post them at that other forum, the one QM supposedly frequents more?

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

It is still possible, it is just a lot harder. It also reduces a lot of micromanagement.

And if your tactics where planning a large bootstrapped blood economy I think you where playing the wrong nation.

But I must admit I never bootstrapped myself into blood. To much hassle, and I think you could use the commanders and scouts better in other places.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

WL, I stated my opinion pretty clearly in 1.7 thread where he certainly saw my posts, and we had some episodic discussions in IRC. Unfortunately currently with 3 children and 2 jobs I don't have that much time to follow all the forums so I've chosen this one. On the other hand, I have zero 1.7 experience so I don't think my suggestions regarding further CBM development will make much sense. In short, my opinion about 1.7: please don't fix the things that are not broken.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

>> It is still possible, it is just a lot harder. It also reduces a lot of micromanagement.

It was very hard already. There's a point where gains arent worth the cost.

>> And if your tactics where planning a large bootstrapped blood economy I think you where playing the wrong nation.

I think Dominions was a game where you could choose your nation and your tactics - and still succeed if you played your cards right. But CBM keeps cutting 'wrong' paths off. Weird idea to ban something because 'everyone uses it', and then start buffing useless items so they get used more often. Why not just buff everything to the point it gets useful - and enjoy many viable tactics.

Re: CBM 1.8 released
 

Some stuff is so good that you cannot win unless you also use it. The gengems for example. Most give a constant boost to gems after only 15 turns. Create enough of them, and you could not lose, so the endgame became, who can create the most gemgens the quickest.

(With some variation of skill, but it is hard to beat an opponent who gets 100 more gems than you get each turn).

The same with hammers, and SDR's. They are so good, that there is no point in not using them. Games become very dull if each game is, rush construction. Forge Turtle Win.

It creates the runaway leader problem. (Which strat games tend to have). As long as you lead in gems, gold, etc. You can create more gems/gold quicker just because you are in the lead. Removal of gemgens and hammers makes this less so. (Not so convinced about the SDR).

Jade knives where just broken. :). A blood sac spam with jade knives isn't counterable.

Compare this to research boosters. Good, useful, but not so overpowered that you need them asap.

And you cannot always boost everything to the point of usefulness, some stuff is just overpowered. Or, something that is used always. If you use a hammer for all your forgings, you could just as well remove the hammer, and reduce all the forging costs.

Perhaps SDR removal is going to far. I don't know. Perhaps they should have been made more expensive. (b2, 15 slaves... So they take about 10 turns to get your investment back). My opinion about it is waving back and forth.

Sometimes certain concepts just don't work out in a game. Sucks, but it takes a big designer to take something out. And it is difficult decision. Gemgens, Jade Knives I agree. Hammers I tend to agree. (If you didn't have e2 + foot slot as a mage, you would always put it on your pretender). And SDR's I'm not totally convinced.

Ps: I love how the removal of the SDR changes everything Dom3 is about. You are overreacting a bit. Dom is still choose a nation, and win. But blood is not something every nation can do just as easy. Just as not every nation has Jaguars or high astral, or heavily armored shock troops who shoot explosive ammo, have a fanatical devotion to a dead superhuman on a toilet, and cybernetic implants.