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-   -   Question about Bless bonuses... (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=47068)

earwicker7 February 19th, 2011 03:47 PM
Question about Bless bonuses...
 
When you bless a sacred unit, are their blessing bonuses based on the magic levels you choose during pretender creation, or are they effected by magic boosts/empowerment?

iRFNA February 19th, 2011 03:50 PM
Re: Question about Bless bonuses...
 
Only from creation, but your pretender can die and lose magic levels and it won't affect the bless

Calahan February 19th, 2011 03:56 PM
Re: Question about Bless bonuses...
 
An answer to most of the obvious questions about the game (including the question in the OP) can be found in the FAQ.

Dominions 3 FAQ thread - http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=33869

The Wiki is also a good source of answers, and is slowly expanding due to the efforts of the few dedicated soles who work on it. (the answer to the original question can be found in the Wiki as well)

Dominions 3 Wiki - http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Main_Page

earwicker7 February 19th, 2011 05:17 PM
Re: Question about Bless bonuses...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calahan (Post 771425)
An answer to most of the obvious questions about the game (including the question in the OP) can be found in the FAQ.

Dominions 3 FAQ thread - http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=33869

The Wiki is also a good source of answers, and is slowly expanding due to the efforts of the few dedicated soles who work on it. (the answer to the original question can be found in the Wiki as well)

Dominions 3 Wiki - http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Main_Page
I recently lost what should have been a very easy battle thanks to the Wiki... there is an alarming amount of units with zero protection (according to the Wiki page) that actually have quite a bit of protection. Because of this, I prefer to get answers from people.

iRFNA February 19th, 2011 05:20 PM
Re: Question about Bless bonuses...
 
It lists their base protection and then their equipment, but doesn't add the protection from the equipment. I guess there can be differences due to mods, too, but I'm guessing that's what you're talking about. It isn't an inaccuracy, though.

earwicker7 February 19th, 2011 05:30 PM
Re: Question about Bless bonuses...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iRFNA (Post 771429)
It lists their base protection and then their equipment, but doesn't add the protection from the equipment. I guess there can be differences due to mods, too, but I'm guessing that's what you're talking about. It isn't an inaccuracy, though.
That may be it... there should probably be something on the index, in bright red letters, letting people know this. I went in spamming spells that would have wiped out units with zero protection, and they just bounced off of them :doh:.

thejeff February 19th, 2011 05:50 PM
Re: Question about Bless bonuses...
 
I understand why it is that way, but it is terribly misleading. If you know the game well, you'll see that the stats are wrong and figure out why, but if you're new you probably won't even think about it.

Some kind of warning would be nice. Or changing the label to "natural protection"? Better yet, show the actual protection. I know the data is autogenerated, but could the final number be calculated? We know the formula and the data's right there...

Soyweiser February 19th, 2011 05:54 PM
Re: Question about Bless bonuses...
 
A Poor Craftsman Blames His Tools…

There is a reason for having the base protection on the wiki. First, the data is easier to get. Want to change it, ask LCH for a copy of his database and do it your self. Second, sometimes you want to know the base prot of a unit, not base prot + armor.

iRFNA February 19th, 2011 06:00 PM
Re: Question about Bless bonuses...
 
Take this screwdriver and hammer in those nails!.. Or "stupid cornballing piece of ****!"

I'm glad it shows the base prot, but I do wish there was even a link to the various generic armors so I don't have to look it up in-game or in the dom3db. I'm just used to looking everything up in-game at this point, especially with the myriad CBM changes.

thejeff February 19th, 2011 07:21 PM
Re: Question about Bless bonuses...
 
Yeah, that's a useful solution. Rather than suggest a fairly minor tweak to the existing tool, I should get the base data, duplicate all the work that went into setting up the wiki and put up a competing one?

It may not even be possible with the current data dump. I'd thought the wiki included stats for the armors. If that data isn't available, then it can't be done. In which case the best solution might just to change the label. Do you think I should duplicate the whole project to do that?

Not that I really care. I also usually just look things up in-game. And when I do go to the wiki, I know it's actually showing base protection. I only commented since I've seen several, probably fairly new, people post that they'd been confused by this.

As for wanting the base protection, obviously the best choice would be to show both, if that was possibly/easy.

Edi February 20th, 2011 09:23 AM
Re: Question about Bless bonuses...
 
If the wiki only lists base stats of the units, and it likely does, it would need some way of calculating the protection and other things. Aside from looking in-game, the Dom3 DB is the closest thing, since it uses base tables to calculate how a unit actually looks like, so it is not off by a whole lot even in the case of protection. The other formulas there are exact.

The DB can also be modified to match a mod by making a copy and then switching base table values to match a mod and look at the final result.

Soyweiser February 20th, 2011 11:13 AM
Re: Question about Bless bonuses...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thejeff (Post 771439)
Yeah, that's a useful solution. Rather than suggest a fairly minor tweak to the existing tool, I should get the base data, duplicate all the work that went into setting up the wiki and put up a competing one?
Yeah, that is what I meant. Using the edit button on the wiki is VERBOTEN. Duplicating it the only way. It is impossible to help on the wiki. That would beat the purpose of the wiki of course.

Ps: it came to my attention that the armor/weapon data hasn't been uploaded to the wiki database yet. So, I have asked Lch what I can do to help. If Wolfsbane also acquires the database schema from Lch, we can do some more work on this. Perhaps even add the cap only units to the nation lists. (Else, that will have to be done by hand).

But that also has a problem, protection is reasonably hard to determine. It uses some algorithms which are not entirely understood (by me at least, don't know if the information on the wiki is correct, have not looked at it this year.). And then you have base prot, body prot and head prot. But I'm sure that using the information in the Helpful Dom3 DB and the wiki will make it easy to do.

Edit: looked at the protection page. Well, that will not be to hard to implement. Of course there is the problem of having two pieces of body armor, but I don't know if there are base units that have this.

earwicker7 February 20th, 2011 11:17 AM
Re: Question about Bless bonuses...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thejeff (Post 771433)
I understand why it is that way, but it is terribly misleading. If you know the game well, you'll see that the stats are wrong and figure out why, but if you're new you probably won't even think about it.
Exactly... now that I know what I'm looking at, it makes total sense, but I just accepted (off the top of my head) that what was on there would be the same thing I would get if I right-clicked the unit (it isn't).

thejeff February 20th, 2011 11:34 AM
Re: Question about Bless bonuses...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soyweiser (Post 771482)
Quote:
Originally Posted by thejeff (Post 771439)
Yeah, that's a useful solution. Rather than suggest a fairly minor tweak to the existing tool, I should get the base data, duplicate all the work that went into setting up the wiki and put up a competing one?
Yeah, that is what I meant. Using the edit button on the wiki is VERBOTEN. Duplicating it the only way. It is impossible to help on the wiki. That would beat the purpose of the wiki of course.
Well, it was what you suggested. Unless one of us misunderstands the nature of this wiki. Of course, you could edit any individual units protection stat, but that would be a huge project, since you'd have to change every unit's page. I thought the wiki (at least the units part of it) was auto-generated from the data dump. It would be far easier to tweak the generating code than to edit each unit.
Granted, once done, that wouldn't have to be a competing site.

iRFNA February 20th, 2011 11:37 AM
Re: Question about Bless bonuses...
 
The armor calc equation appears to be this, for what it's worth:

Code:
  v3 = sub_506D90(a1, 1); //get overall protection, still dunno head/body mechanics
  v4 = sub_506BF0(a1); //get natural protection
  v5 = (signed int)((unsigned __int64)(1717986919i64 * ((40 - v3) * v4 + 20)) >> 32) >> 4;
  v6 = (signed int)((unsigned __int64)(1717986919i64 * ((40 - v3) * v4 + 20)) >> 32) >> 4;
  result = 40;
  v2 = ((unsigned int)v6 >> 31) + v5 + v3;
  if ( v2 < 40 )
    result = v2;
  return result;
I guess there's a couple other possibilities, here they are:

Code:
  v3 = 2 * sub_506D90(a1, 2); //this and the following 2 lines appear to be calc for head/body/extra prot from bracerish stuff?
  v4 = sub_506D90(a1, 3) + v3;
  v5 = (v4 + sub_506D90(a1, 4)) / 4;
  v6 = sub_506BF0(a1); //get natural prot again
  v7 = (signed int)((unsigned __int64)(1717986919i64 * ((40 - v5) * v6 + 20)) >> 32) >> 4;
  v8 = (signed int)((unsigned __int64)(1717986919i64 * ((40 - v5) * v6 + 20)) >> 32) >> 4;
  result = 40;
  v2 = ((unsigned int)v8 >> 31) + v7 + v5;
  if ( v2 < 40 )
    result = v2;
  return result;
and this one, but it appears to mostly be dealing with a faulty unit index?

Code:
  v1 = 0;
  v8 = 0;
  if ( a1 < 0 )
  {
    result = 0;
  }
  else
  {
    sub_49DFA0(a1 >= 140000, "getprot: bad unr");
    sub_4478E0(a1);
    v2 = 1;
    do
    {
      if ( v2 != 1
        || (v3 = word_1189550[46 * a1], v3 >= 0)
        && !(dword_536228[50 * v3] & 0x10000000)
        && ((v4 = sub_4DFF00(a1, 182, 0), !v4) || BYTE1(v4) & 1 || v4 & 0x80 && !(dword_1189540[23 * a1] & 0x80000000)) )
      {
        v5 = sub_506D90(a1, v2);
        if ( v2 == 2 )
        {
          v1 += 2 * v5;
          v8 += v2;
        }
        else
        {
          v1 += v5;
          ++v8;
        }
      }
      ++v2;
    }
    while ( v2 <= 4 );
    v6 = ((40 - v1 / v8) * sub_506BF0(a1) + 20) / 40 + v1 / v8;
    if ( v6 < 40 )
      result = v6;
    else
      result = 40;
  }
  return result;
This isn't against the rules or anything, is it?

Soyweiser February 20th, 2011 11:41 AM
Re: Question about Bless bonuses...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by earwicker7 (Post 771483)
Quote:
Originally Posted by thejeff (Post 771433)
I understand why it is that way, but it is terribly misleading. If you know the game well, you'll see that the stats are wrong and figure out why, but if you're new you probably won't even think about it.
Exactly... now that I know what I'm looking at, it makes total sense, but I just accepted (off the top of my head) that what was on there would be the same thing I would get if I right-clicked the unit (it isn't).
Well it isn't intentional. The wiki is simply not complete.

Just as a lot of information about domes is missing.

Soyweiser February 20th, 2011 11:48 AM
Re: Question about Bless bonuses...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thejeff (Post 771488)
Well, it was what you suggested. Unless one of us misunderstands the nature of this wiki. Of course, you could edit any individual units protection stat, but that would be a huge project, since you'd have to change every unit's page. I thought the wiki (at least the units part of it) was auto-generated from the data dump. It would be far easier to tweak the generating code than to edit each unit.
Granted, once done, that wouldn't have to be a competing site.
Well, you could have just looked at the templates. Those get the date from the db, and are editable. Still, I don't know if calculations are possible. (It would probably need some sort of math wiki plugin, but I could ask Lch for this information).

And you should have seen the work AncientHistory was doing. (Dunno if he ever finished, got to check that).

Soyweiser February 20th, 2011 11:50 AM
Re: Question about Bless bonuses...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iRFNA (Post 771489)
The armor calc equation appears to be this, for what it's worth:
Where did you get this? A decompiler?

iRFNA February 20th, 2011 11:51 AM
Re: Question about Bless bonuses...
 
Just a disassembler, the "c" code is only pseudo-code. But ya, it's no wonder you guys could never brute force the equation. haha

Edi February 20th, 2011 03:14 PM
Re: Question about Bless bonuses...
 
That armor calculation looks correct. I had it somewhere sometime, but either I have lost the email, or just can't find it, or it was in some other venue.

In any case, the armors have hidden attributes for leg and arm protection, which were later not implemented, but which enter into the calculations, which results in all those mysterious additions and multipliers, but which end up with the body prot values we know. The interactions between natural protection, earth magic and so on are then factored in and it's adjusted, so that full earth magic and natural prot are not added.

That's because if they were, high natural protection units would become invulnerable to anything other than armor negating weapons or something that did times x multiplied damage against them (with high strength).

Colonial February 26th, 2011 01:10 PM
Re: Question about Bless bonuses...
 
I reckon the problem could be solved if someone just added the data on weapons and armor to the wiki. When I see 'protection 0' my first instinct is to click on the units armor and see what the protection really is, as I could do in game. of course on the wiki, I can't :'(

(hovering over it like for the abilities would be even better).

Soyweiser February 26th, 2011 06:37 PM
Re: Question about Bless bonuses...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonial (Post 771956)
I reckon the problem could be solved if someone just added the data on weapons and armor to the wiki. When I see 'protection 0' my first instinct is to click on the units armor and see what the protection really is, as I could do in game. of course on the wiki, I can't :'(

(hovering over it like for the abilities would be even better).
You could create your own account on the wiki and try to edit it.


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