Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

I have been having a bash at bug-hunting in CB1.82, and qm has kindly given me permission to go ahead with a release. Hopefully this will be a nice stable version. :)

Here is the change list:

I noted down the first few bug fixes individually:
- Cleansing bell now 5 damage AOE 6 (was 10 damage AOE 6)
- Fixed Shield of Valor bug
- Paths fixed for Forest of a Thousand Eyes
- Paths fixed for Drain Magic
- Foul Sacrifice is now Thaum 1, makes 4 spiders and is not better for more powerful casters
- All "kill caster" spells now try to kill the caster twice, so shape changing, elixir of life etc are no protection
- Niklatu gained reinvigoration from his Rainbow Armor
- Niklatu now has no body slots
- Fixed typos spotted by Wraithlord
- Kohen Gadol 400 gold (was 40)
- Cleansing Bell does 5 AN damage, AOE 6
- Icicle Mail encumbrance 1 (was 2)
- Paralyzing Poison (blowpipes) no longer #magic and can be countered by poison resistance
Then my thoroughness in noting things down diminished:
- Fixed all bugs in the CB 1.82 bug thread on the dom3mods forum

Also:
- Tartarian Monstrum gained tail spines to be in line with Manticore (I went wild and made this change on my own so qm may undo it in future)
- All diversity summons upgraded to (not-yet-released!) EDM 1.2. This was actually already in CB1.82 but was not in the changelog. I'll release EDM 1.2 in the next day or so and put the changelog there.
- Diversity summons are included in the zip again.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Uploaded a slightly modified version:
- After a lot of faffing with the "Kill self" effects of Possession etc, I'd managed to upload a version that didn't work when cast by non-immortal casters (because I'd been testing on immortals). Fixed.
- Ice weapons now consistently give "freeze" effect. It was inconsistent before. This constitutes a slight buff to LA Atlantis via freezing Ice Glaives.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Ahem, just uploaded another update. The kill-self spells were bugged again, embarrassingly.

I will try not to upload any more new versions without changing the version number, as it's obviously a bit unhelpful.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

A small bug, originally in vanilla, but Gath's Iassacharite Sybils do not have the female tag (they can be seduced).

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Pretender (crone, mother of serpents) still just gets affliction and doesn't die.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

CBM 1.81 and later include an updated version of the Endgame Diversity Mod, which I still haven't released as a standalone mod (I will do soon but I need to move all the monster IDs around). However I forgot to publish the EDM changelog, so here it is:

-- Changes already present in CBM but previously not in EDM (these are changes that qm made when he integrated EDM into CBM):

Roc now has "Roc beak" attack which is armour piercing
Zmey much cheaper: 25 gems (was 35)
Mechanical giant cost increase to 20 gems (16)
Cyclops cost increase to 35 gems (30)
Grendelkin cost decrease to 35 gems (40)
Asynja randoms reduced from 210% AEDB to 160% AEDB

-- New changes:

Roc gained powerful one-use AOE 1 "Aerial Dive" attack.
Treant: cost reduced to 30 (40). Research level to 7 (8)
Ettin: Cost reduced to 14 (18). Research level to 5 (7).
Ettins gained 50% shock resistance, cold resistance and poison resistance.
Asynjas gained good Enchanted Sword and Weightless Shield items.
Kraken magic: Previously was W3E1B1 in EDM, W1, 150% WEN in CBM. Now W2B1 + 50% W + 50% E + 50% N in both.
Kraken: Cost 30 gems in EDM, 16 in CBM. Now costs 20.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Grendelkin are WAY TOOOO cheap....Basically a standard SC like adon with 30+ protection can not stand before a duel-wielding grendelkin for more than two turns.......

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

:) Well, lots of people tell me they're too weak too. I guess that's a good sign!

Basically, like most summons, they are situational. If your opponent has a good counter, they're terrible. If not, they're awesome.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Hardly anything can counter a grendelkin...maybe multiple ghost riders can, but it can be solved be following another "standard sc" or just a S mage buff ethereal.

grendelkin combine 3 of 5 most deadly feature for a sc:High protection that make normal units attack useless, tons of HP to undertake massive AP or AN damage like duel wielding quickened dusk blade, and high strength that make sure no normal enemy can stand long enough to kill it——now all it need is take attack value increase item, extra attack items include a brand so that can deal with chaffs too. I tried duelwield quickened axes of hate, yet still can not kill it before it kill mine.

Actually in one of my game, a blinded duel wielding grendelkin can still crush 40+ashdod pd given by events.

And besides, considering there's hardly any use of W gems other than this and water bottle, grendelkin can be much more in number than Ember lords. Wendigos are great as D4 mages, but not even close to grendelkin as sc, not to mention only some nation can and willig to summon it.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Well, they're hard to counter with troops or SCs sure. But they lack native elemental resistances, so are hard to cover completely. No magic means everything they need has to come from items.
I don't care how much Prot or HP they have, if they lack 100% resistance, Incinerate, Frozen Heart or lightning spam will bring them down. If you don't also boost their MR through the roof, they'll Soul slay easy enough.
And they'll need reinvig to, because crits will get through their protection.

And still probably vulnerable to the Vine whip/AN attack trick.

Leech and Life for a Life do unblockable damage. You'll need a few cast to get through the hp.

If all that fails, "Infernal prison" or "Claws of Kokytos".


They are tough. But hardly unstoppable.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Horror mark them, and the problem goes away after a few turns.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

I bet living fire or air would kick a fully kitted Grendelkin ars. An orb lightning or two would likely fatigue him beyond hope. Heck, I bet even some ghouls would kill him with darkness.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

SOP to kill Grendelkin.

If the Grendelkin doesn't have a shield of valour (I bet my hat that is not the standard equipment for grendelkin ;) ) then take one indy commander with Black Bow of Botulf, and another indy commander with Ethereal Crossbow. Script each with Fire at Large target. If you want to be extra sure, bring in a third indy commander (or a nature/airmage who first boosts his precission) with Vine Bow.

If the Grendelkin is not 100% frost resistant. Script your water mages with Frozen Heart.

If the Grendelkin is not 100% shock resistant. Script your air mages with Orb Lighnting. If the Grendelkin is still alive after a couple rounds, send in a militia man to gut the now passed out Grendelkin.

Use an astral mage, scripted with Horror Mark x3, Retreat.

To thejeff:
You cant just expect everytime your enemy follow your plan.

They have no elemental resistance, of course. But if you use them in a massive battle as heavy battle fortress, then give them partial resistance items like birch boots,fire brand or so denpending on what path your enemy massively possess, and max it with massive spell like warrior of nefielheim or even gaia's blessing, then such weakness exist no more. As for MR, standard equipment can give them 24 mr, then an antimagic can boost them to 28, not really dangerous if it is not the only largest unit in your army. Reinvig is not a problem too, since spell like relief can help.

If grendelkins are used as raiders to plunder your land, and more importantly, blocking and killing your raiders, you can not depend on elemental spells,since you can hardly kill a monster with 240HP and regeneration with a single mage's spell, even if it is 100 precision. Spells like blindness work better, but as i said before, a blinded grendelkin can still crush 40+pd, and a 20 marignon man-at-arms squad cannot harm a paralyzed grendelkin in another game.

I suppose massive teleport/cloud trapeze mages could surely kill a grendelkin without much casualty(if target have no winged shoes or you have storm staff, though mr negate spells can hardly counted on if you want kill it immediately....). If you dont want risk, then several arouse hunger wound be good chaff. But the problem is, this hunting party then became best target for your enemy's fire form afar or seeking arrow or any other long range firepower, and many would lost nonetheless.

Vine whip/AN attack trick works fine against most SCs, but for grendelkin, one or two miss of vine whip would be the death of your sc, thanks to the strength of grendelkin, and you really need long time to put down a monster with 240HP/20+regeneration(with a hydra skin armor for instance)

Forget leech which require blood slaves, even drain life spam(with quickened standard of the damned) need a long time to take it down, suppose it has been blocked by your chaff. But still, such hunting team are still vulnerable against seeking arrows or mind hunt even if you use scouts.

Life for a life are great SC killer, but you still need 4 mages to kill it in one turn, or 2 in two turns, double the number if it have pendant of luck. Perhaps vampire lords would be great in ambushing, but not everyone able to use such strategy before end game.

"Infernal prison" or "Claws of Kokytos" are of cause useful, except 3 major flaw: 1, not everyone can use it when needed. 2, you cant sure how long you can keep it in hell, twice have my grendelkin been send into hell, and they all coming out within 3 months alive and did not fall into water. 3, these two spell have a range of only 25, with mean if your grendelkin or whatever sc stay at the bottom line for 5 turns, the blood mage will surely waste blood slaves on summon imp or so. I tried very hard in one game to deal with an enemy sc, including put it in frontline and script attack one turn, Infernal prison, yet he still failed, maybe because the blood slaves are still on the way behind him-_-

As far as I tried, seems the best effort would be scatter my mages with hunting squad acoss my land and if a grendelkin happen to attack this province, his bad luck. the only problem is casualty of the hunting mages under enemy assassination spells.

to Executor: living fire or air are no match against grendelkin, ghost rider would be much better than it if grendelkin have no shield and no one buff it ethereal. Size 4 elementals cannot cause any real damage before been destroyed. Orb lightning are somewhat useless because if you have chaffs, then grendelkin wont come into spell range if he wait 5 turns, and if you dont.....fatigue from several hit wont stop it from killing your mage. Darkness....Did you notice that grendelkin have 75 darkvision?

To Jarkko:
What is SOP?
I have tested, if a sc with a shield like shield of gleaming gold, bows like black bow have no chance within 30 turns till battle ends. If he has no shield, he will normally be feeble minded within 5 turns, though. So the "bowman hunting team" still have the same problem: how do you catch him, and how do you kill it before it reach you.

Spell spam are always useful, but as I said before, it is useless in a large battle since your enemy can cast mass resistance spell, and its really hard to intercept a raiding grendelkin with dozens of mages along with chaffs.

In speak of horror mark, I'm afraid only doom horrors have the protential to beat it, which need really long time and many marks. Dont forget that you won't just face one grendelkin——in one game thanks to a enchantment bonus site, I'm able to summon two every three months.....

Basically, grendelkin feels like the doom horror maker of ruins: you need a long time to kill it, while it can kill you with one or two hit. Maybe mass up defence is the only reasonable way——or a mage bane........

So maybe Llamabeast could somewhat reduce some of its stats, like HP or protection or strength.....

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

SOP = Standard Operating Procedure

Black Bow of Botulf requires a hit to cause feeblemind, you don't have to actually deal any damage to cause the feeblemind. After the target is feebleminded it gets -5 Magic Resistance (if the Grendelkin has no MR equipment, this means MR drops to 13), which means the Soul Slay from Ethereal Crossbow is very likely to succeed. If in doubt, use a Vinebow or cast Vinearrow etc to make the target stuck in place.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Oh i see, thanks~

But as I said before, shield CAN parry the special effect of Black bow and eye bow, haven't tested vine bow yet. Actually shield parry is very interesting: the arcane bolt, which deal AN damage to magic beings, can be parried by a shield and deal no damage. Perhaps in parrying missle, the shield just make it miss, rather than plus shield protection to body protection.

Thus, for a sc with a good shield, this bow trick became useless.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Most of the lone or multi single figure target damage spells (bolts, darts, even star fire ...etc) can be parried I believe, those with AoE such as acid bolt are not subject to this of course. and of course, arrows, bolts, magical or otherwise can all be parried, though magical projectiles receives a +2 hit check (I assume a buckler with 2 parry will be almost useless against magical projectiles).

I read that Androphage arrow with its poison arrow is an exception, as is Piercer Xbow from 1st hand testing likely as a unique attribute of the weapon, I have not tested vision Foe, but I know ethereal bow can be parried.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

I think it's clear that a Grendelkin can be very powerful given good kit and good planning, I don't think anyone would disagree with that. It is intended to be one of the most powerful units in the game. However there is a lot of cost involved in summoning and kitting one fully. I think it's along the same sort of lines with regard to power as tartarians, Ember Lords and high end angel summons. The grendelkin has amazing stats, but no resistances which is quite a big setback when designing what equipment to give him.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Grendelkin is just not as great as you think.
He has certain advantages as not having an undead tag to make his vulnerable to certain items like Tartarians, but he still has no basic elemental protection, and has fatigue. Simply put, you can't equip him and protect him from everything, cold/fire/poison/MR/fatigue. Well unless you use some heavy artifacts but than you can't generalize how unstoppable they are.

I though air and fire elementals dealt elemental, as in slight fatigue damage, guess I was wrong. But still, living water would crush a Grendelkin no matter his HP and protection. Two orb lightnings would probably jump his fatigue over 100 and make him vulnerable to just about anything.

Now, if the Grendelkin moves forward and attacks from the start that you can easily stop him with fatigue damage, and cleverly used battle orders. Combine, air damage, fire damage, some paralyzing poison (eg. ghouls), water elementals, piercer to blind him (works regardless of armor), fatigue damage from stellar cascades, etc.
And if he simply chooses to relax 5x while you scripts fail, than send 2 banes with axes of hate, quickness, stone bird and burning pearl for example.

And as far as large battles go, yes he can have all the possible protections from buffs, every elemental protection to 100, high MR, regeneration, reinvigoration... but so can your troops and SC's. You can beat him by routing, by bringing boxing teams, gloves of the gladiator with quickness and a stone bird, you can boost strength with giant strength, or items. You can cast those buffs on troops and cast weapons of sharpness, and quickness. I bet that would butcher a Grendelkin.
Depending on the battle size the Grandelkin might just sit there and wait behind friendly troops and so on.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

To Finalgenesis：

I thought missle spell can be blocked by a shield or air shield was a common sense-_-....Anyway, I mention arcane bolt only to say that the shield block on missile weapon or spell is to negate the missile rather than plus shield protection on body's(poor iron blizzard....).

And yes, Androphage Archer can poision enemy even the arrow has been blocked, so is the decay effect of banefire bow of skeleton archer form spell reanimate archer. Don't know if its a bug or intentional.

To Llamabeast:

Yes, thats exactly what I am trying to say. Grendelkins are not invincible, of cause, but REALLY underestimated. They are as powerful as tartarians, Ember Lords and high end angel summons, if not more powerful as sc. So they should be enchantment 9 summons, and should not cost only 35 or 40 gems, especially when W gems are almost least useful gems otherwise. Even tartarian costs more, if take the price of keeping goh or grail into count, or if you can't hold them, the price of feeble minded tarts you have sommoned.（By the way, I always wonder why choose grendel as one of the most powerful summons, who can be deadly wounded by a mortal in the story-_-....Why not second generation giant sons of gaia in ancient greek mythology, members of Rimtursar，Anunnaki from Sumerian mythology，or something from Cthulu mythology, or even KuaFu the sun chasing giant/Xing Tian the headless giant from acient Chinese mythology?）

Actually in resent 3+ games with EDM I held or participated, grendelkins are the most popular summon among all the EDM summons. Someone would use ember lord as sc, or treant as anti sc, but few use Asynja, wendigo or cyclops as sc rather than mage. Asynja is excellent as raider for her cloud trapeze and stealth, but why bother hiding if you can beat almost anyone who dare to teleport upon you? Standard raiding sc/thug like Adon or jontun skratti became useless because you cannot affort met one when half a dozen grendelkin raging across your countryside.....

To Executor:

No undead or magic being tag is a HUGE advantage combine with their HP——tarts are nasty, but an anti-sc with flamebeau or herald lance can kill them within several turns. Also it is a devastating news for angels and elemental royalty when cbm change moonblade into single handed weapon, you will know it when you trying to kill an enemy sc with a duel-wielding moonblade quickened anti-sc thug. But no weapon have such effectiveness when you want to kill a grendelkin.

Orb lightning? have you tested it? I tested it with a grendelkin given fire brand, sword of swiftness, starshine cap, hydraskin armor, birch shoes(which is a little waste on poison immunity), pendant of luck and amulate of antimagic. The other side use 3 A2 and a A3 Oreiad script orb lightning, yet grendelkin's fatigue never exceed 50 before he reap all the oreiad. and orb lightning's range is too short, if take some chaff, then they wont have chance to use it.

I tested living fire, living air and living water casted by a 9 level mage who summon 10 such elemental, with the same grendelkin who have 50 CR, 0 SR and 50 FR. The result is, air elemental is the least useful one, causing no harm before all 10 get slaughtered. Water elemental did a little better, at least used to reduce grendelkin's hp under 100, but still cannot beat it--24HP regeneration is awesome. Fire elemental did the best, grendelkin fall unconscious when there's still 5 fire elemental left, despite its 50 FR. However, without other unit, 5 fire elemental can not beat grendelkin's regeneration, and eventually dissolved after 50 turns.

So as you can see, spell or damage that can inflicted by one or two hunting mages are far less than sufficient to kill a grendelkin. The bow tricks are interesting, but useless since vine bow have a range of strength——first the commander with vine bow move forward, and get killed before he can hold grendelkin, then grendelkin kill other 2 commander with a feebled mind. 19 mr is still too high for ethereal crossbow which only have 1 attack every 2 turns.

As for bane....Didn't I say that even Adon with 30+ protection cannot stand before grendelkin for 2 turns, what can 2 bane do? With one hit, 2 bane are no more. But maybe 2 bane lord can be enough since they can withstand more than 1 turn.....


My experience tell me that in massive battle, grendelkin are not that deadly because they can hardly reach your sc, and killing chaffs or stand behind your own chaffs are something even a thug can did well, not to mention that enemy S mages would concentrate their fire power on grendelkin who is normally stand taller and ran faster than anyother sc who is now busy buffing themselves.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Not just 2 banes, but 2 banes with axe of hate and quickness. That is one very stunned Grendelkin after round one (and with quickness those banes always get in the attacks first, unless the Grendelkin is protected by an army, and if he is protected by an army then you just rout the army and watch the Grendelkin run).

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Then some Scratti casts claws of cocytus and your mighty SC goes down the drain.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Exactly. The point is if the Grandelkin doesn't kill them in a single round he's as good as dead.
If he attacks than use a different approach. Instead of 3 mages casting orb lightning, script phantasmal warrior on two of them to keep him busy and within range and have the third cast aim + orb lightning, or something similar. And yes, I have tested orb lightning. With as much as 5 militia scattered in groups of 1, but within range, 2 orb lightning mages can fatigue the Grendelkin out, they can't kill him, but than you use something else.

You're not gonna send the air mages alone obviously, even if you teleport you can still spam chaff to keep him busy.

Water Elementals will certainly kill the Grendelkin if he doesn't have regeneration.

If he has regeneration, than he lacks something else. Again you improvise and use something else. Once more just fatigue him out and send a single bane with gloves of the gladiator to pound him into oblivion.
Keep the Bane at hold 5x and attack so he doesn't get killed while the Grendelkin is active.

If he has a frost brend for example, use visions foe to blind him (use a nature 1 or air 1 mage with an aye of aiming and script eagle eyes, that should give about 20 precision), and than just spam cold resistant undead to keep him company, or some fire elemetals if he has a fire brend, and wait until he routs. Of course this one could only work if you can anticipate his movement as you need to be the defender to use the turn limit, but the trap is rather cheap, a few low level mages, backed by some cheap PD. Even when it doesn't work you don't care. But every time you kill a Grendelkin your enemy will be more reluctant to send a new one your way.

The point is, like any other SC, there is no universal way to kill them. You obverse them and exploit their weaknesses, elemental vulnerability, low MR, anti undead/demon/magic weapons, morale, lack of shields for the bows, etc...
Like I said, the Grendelkins main problem is, he has no magic, he can't buff, he can't teleport so the air drops will always get him (unless you vortex him with a mage), you can't equip him for all elements and give him high MR and make him invulnerable to magic, as you can a Tart E3A2 Cyclpos for example, you can't catch and kill a large army since he moves in regular phase, so his raiding is limited in a way also.

One more easy way to lose a SC, Grendelkin or any other is to put a bane or two with appropriate items in the open on top of a bait army for example. Banes don't tend to be shown in scout information.

I for one would never send a lone Grendelkin out, it takes at least 70 gems to summon and equip one, and there are simply too many ways you can lose him easily I might add.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

I didnt say 2 banes with axe of hate and quickness cannot kill the grendelkin, just....they can be killed in one hit, too, and you cant guarantee that your bane will perform the first blow. Perhaps give them jade armor and winged shoes. But if grendelkin have winged shoes too and is the defender, or if there's something blocking the way, They are still not safe. And the other problem is you cant expect everytime your bane can successfully intercept grendelkin since they can't teleport,two isolated bane are excellent target for mind hunt or ghost rider- two ghost riders can be the death sentence for anti-sc like them.

And....dont keep talking about orb lightning plz.....It is practically impossible to keep a sc within a range of 15 for long time....phantasmal warrior is good meat shield, but they will surely move forward to engage grendelkin, if they can block grendelkin from moving forward(which need a lot of A mages), then no such thing "within range" before your mages rout, and if they can not block, 1 or 2 orb lightning are far from enough to knock grendelkin unconscious within 2 or 3 turns. In optimized occasion, phantasmal soldiers just keep grendelkin SLOWLY moving forward, then when grendelkin finally reach in 15 range from bottom line, your poor mages are surely already unconscious first. same problem for militia who can only hold 2 turns or even archers who would move into its 30 range first. You can always use your A9 pretender to knock unconscious a grendelkin with one hit of orb lightning, though. But I would rather use 5 or more air mage cast lightning bolt, which have more chance to knockout grendelkin should one of the mages cast phantasmal army....Then the only problem is these mages will very likely become victim to seeking arrow or earth attack.

Yes if you send enough elementals to a grendelkin without regeneration, he's probably doomed. The problem is, why dont give grendelkin regenaration? They have 240HP, which means 10%regeneration will regenerate 24HP per turn, plus their high protection....no need to waste a misc slot for ring, a hydra skin armor is enough since higher protection armor provide little improve on its already high protection. Or if you have N bless, a shroud of the battle saint is a better choice.

Your next suggestion is....well, as I said before, arrow trick is useless if grendelkin have a shield. If it is dual wielding, as I said at the first place, a blinded grendelkin can still crush 40+pd of ashdod....While such trap can kill a normal sc, it can only rout a grendelkin, meanwhile isolated mages wandering outside castle and dome are really in great peril.

Like I said before, I never say grendelkin are unbeatable, just....too hard to beat compare to other sc, seems the easiest way is max its fatigue, yet how to made it before it kill you is still a problem. I try to teleport adon upon a grendelkin with dual axe of hate and winged shoes, but he died before even move: a S1 mage stand behind it(also buff it ethereal) win a magic duel.

And I don't think send a sc like grendelkin into a whole army is a good idea. Use them as heavy raider, backup with S mage, and you won't want to play guerrilla tactic with him...If further backed up with earth attack/seeking arrow/ghost riders, you won't want to set trap everywhere

Yes you can manage to kill a grendelkin, but combine with the failed trying, the price are very likely exceed that of grendelkin, or even twice. Thats why I suggest increase the price of grendelkin.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

We all understand what you're saying Sajuuk. The thing is many of us have fought and killed many Grendelkins in a plethora of different ways. Personally I don't think they're overpowered at all, just a good summon.

I found Wendigos just as useful, both great mages and SC:s. If you plan ahead for their growing they have a lower opportunity cost since you can use them in peacetime as well.

Consider the possibility that you simply need some more practice against Grendelkins, rather than them being overpowered.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

@ Sajuuk,

I apologise, it indeed seems Grendelkins are immortal and can't be killed.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Based on my own personal experience with EDM summons I'd say that Grendelkins are well priced for their value.
A thing to take into acct (that was mentioned here) is that EDM summons tend to have some roles in which the excel and others in which they sub-perform. So when weighing their price it's important to amortize all the aspects, good and bad, weak and strong points. You can't say that X is OP just b/c you had the bad luck to meet it when it's on "upper ground" (or favorable conditions).

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Fantomen:
Well, actually I have killed quite some grendelkin,too, especially in massive battle. Just...it's so hard to hunt down a raiding one since many method became useless

Executor:

Oh, of cause not, how can they be unbeatable, even half a dozen size 4 air elemental can kill them, or some undead in darkness, right?

WraithLord :

I made this conclusion partially by comparing it with other 2 (almost)pathless sc summons: marble oracle and iron angel, both are 20E in cbm. Comparing their utility, it feels like a grendelkin worth at least two of them, thus keep reducing grendelkin's price to 35W may make it underprice.....

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

intermission in the grendelkin argument:

is there any plan to reintroduce some kind of blood stone-like booster in CBM? it got cut because of its generator ability, but i miss them very much as E boosters.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

It has a e4 one. But it is a bit hidden. And it replaces an old artefact.

#selectitem "Boots of Antaeus"
#mainlevel 4
#name "Ring of Earth"
#constlevel 6
#secondarypath -1
#copyspr "Precious"
#type 8
#descr "This ring is forged of metal from the deepest reaches mortals have ever ventured. The ring aids in the use of earth magic, and will heal and reinvigorate the wearer, but at the same time they will feel the weight of mountains drawing earthward."
#armor "Curse of the Earth"
#end

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Introduced in 1.7

*New E booster replacing the now unique blood stone- 4e const6 Ring of Earth (unfortunately uses the slot of Boots of Antaeus)


Edit: Ninja'd.

I assume the "Curse of the Earth" Armor offsets the reinvig?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

I think it does. I'll search:
#newarmor 270
#name "Curse of the Earth"
#prot 0
#enc 5
#def 0
#end

Bonus: if you have a e9+ bless you do get some additional protection. But not much.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

thanks!

i wonder what the reasons are behind the E4 requirement, instead of B3E2 like the stone.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Earth needs the booster. Blood doesn't need the bonus.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Possible bug?

The weightless scale gives -2 encumberance.
The heart of life gives chest wound +5 encumberance.

If you give both to a commander the weightless scales bonus seems to double for calculating the spell casting encumberance. Once for the armor and once for the wound totalling -4.

Example;

Enchantress. Encumberance all around = 3.
Give her a heart of life and her encumberance is 3/8/8
Then give her weightless scale and her encumberance is 3/6/4

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

That's not to do with the heart of life is it? I think armour encumbrance is always doubled when calculating spell casting encumbrance.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

I fail to see how ur post answers my question. As i see it:

-before cbm there was an earth booster with forging requirements B3E2.
-in cbm there is an earth booster with forging reuirements E4.

and i asked: what the reasons were behind this change.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Ah good catch! The weightless scale does become -4 for spell casting encumberance. Still though is that WAD?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Slobby: yes, that's WAD. It's intended to be an awesome casting armor--that's the only way it can be superior to Lightweight Scale Mail if Lightweight Scale is already 0 enc.

Honestly I believe the reasoning behind changing the Earth booster was to keep all the Earth nations from having to have a Blood pretender to get their boosters--it was worth it for nations to do that when Blood Stones gave gems, but after that was eliminated it seemed simply cruel to force MA Ulm etc to get blood on their pretender. It only really affects MA Abysia, who of the blood nations was nerfed least by the lack of SDRs. Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few etc.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

While I would like to think that Vans having an encumbrance of 2 was was an intentional boost to help with some of the hits they've taken the last couple of CBM releases, I suspect it's just a typo given all the other mounted Van units have an encumbrance of 3. Before I realized it was an error I briefly considered an F9 bless (when was the last time someone used one of those with Van?) with some kind of E bless and finding indie/summoned mages to quicken them.

On the topic of Vans, their price was increased from 75 to 90 gold as part of the great glamour nerf. I think this was unnecessary as the glamour nerf by itself solved whatever problem there was (and I sometimes think the real problem was Helheim's recruit anywhere svartalfs). Anyway, this seems overpriced, especially because iirc at the time most games were vanilla and now most MP games are CBM, which opens up rush counters earlier. And I actually do use Vans for expansion since they suffer a very low rate of attrition and don't need to be reinforced (unless of course they run into a mage province). They also can do a nice job raiding PD but facing even minimal mage support they die very quickly. Post glamour nerf 90 gold seems too much given their fragility.

Also, how about a forge bonus for the dwarves? Heck, hammers were named after them - it seems completely thematic they should have one.

And while it's worth waiting for feedback from current games as to the hit Van has taken in blood, I think Vanjarl/adrotts should get a dousing bonus. Or just de-emphasize blood and give them something else in exchange.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

The biggest problem with Vanheim is IMHO that they are boring. Especially EA vanheim who has very little diversity of mages and troops, and have no national spells.

But yea, the Van cavalry is overpriced compared to other nations sacred cavalry. Possibly worth it if you could recruit them everywhere though. It would be thematic at least for MA Van. As they get the rest of their glamor troops everywhere.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

MA Vanheim has the same magic diversity as EA Vanheim, and there are nations with much less access to magic (E4, A4, B2, F1 and D1).

EA Vanheim's main problem is too little differentiation from Helheim. And Helheim is stronger, the only Vanheim advantages are sailing, A4 and E4 access.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

This encumbrance gets doubled when spellcasting, which seems to limit the usefulness of the ring for combat. Is that intentional?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Probably more of an unavoidable side effect.

You can't actually change a lot of things when item modding. If you want the Earth Booster from the Boots of Antaeus, you also get the regen and reinvig. There's nothing you can do about the regen, but you can add an armor type with encumbrance to get counter the reinvig. Of course, that gets doubled for casting, but leaving it with any net reinvig makes it too good for SCs.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Llama, I was running some tests with TNN on 1.83 and noticed Song of Power is now Ench. 0 (it was Ench. 6 in 1.82). Was this intentional to help deal with rushes or is it a typo?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Typo. :(

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Where can I find a complete list of changes made with CBM 1.83? This is not opposed to a previous version, but changes from the base game itself. Do I have to dig through the coding myself?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

There is no such log. Korwyn and kiandutha have attempted to get all the changes listed: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=46904

If you notice any other differences, I am sure you are more than welcome to post there :)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Hey llama, if you're doing another typo fixing release... could Son of _Fenrir_ finally have its name spelled right? (Currently its Son of Fenrer, which is all sorts of wrong).

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!
 

Sorry, a little late to the party on this post. What do folks think about wild ettins? Too powerful? I believe they are. Here is my reasoning:

I am currently dealing with two they are fully equipped. Here are the stats:

HP: 142
Prot: 18
Morale: 22
Magic Res: 19
Enc: 3
Str: 28
Attack: 15
Def: 14
Prec: 12
Move: 3/17
Leadership: 0

Extras: two head slots, shock res 50%, cold res 100% and poison res 100%

Summoning requirements: 14 nature gems, Level 5 Enchantment, level 3 nature and level 3 earth

WOW! Equip them with two helmets and full gear and you are in trouble! If you have not seen this beast on the battlefield, you need to.

I humbly submit that the level of this enchantment needs to go up or the gem requirement does.



Sea_Dog