what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

I am a little unsure of what exactly TCP/IP will do to enhance the game. Will someone please explain this to me. Thank you.

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

testing; quicker play, ESPECIALLY over lans..; playing mods that aren't supported by PBW without PBEM hassles; playing quick games

Phoenix-D

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

quicker play as in the turns will go faster? An this will be good for multiplayer right.

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

Quicker play as in less waiting for people to process turns, recieve turns, etc.

Phoenix-D

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

The death of PBW and PBEM=-( Who's going to keep playing PBEM whn they can have a TCP/IP game?

Those of us who can only commit enough time for one turn a day (not to mention those with slow dialup connections) will probably lose out=-(

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

I think that you would be surprised at how many people have only enough time for one or two turns a day (or two)... And besides, do you know how much of a hassle it will be to try to coordinate 20 people into getting Online at the same time? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

I myself will definitely keep playing PBEM besides TCP/IP. As was pointed out, it is sometimes hard to get all 10 players of the game in front of a PC at one time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
But nevertheless TCP/IP is quite a fun when you have some time as it makes for a much faster game (multiple turns per hour not one per day). With 2 players and a small universe we accomplished round about 10 turns per hour. Further, TCP/IP is made quite comfortable as the game can be minimized at all times and will “beep” if a new turn arrives. You don’t have to sit in front of your PC and watch the same SE4 window all the time unless something is really happening. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

I am staying with pbw as I don't reaaly have time to play a game by tcp/ip

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

I seriously doubt TCP/IP will have a negative impact on the number of people playing via PBW, or standard PBEM. TCP/IPers and PBW/PBEMers are really two distinct Groups of people. Perhaps there will be some overlap, but I expect not much.

In fact I expect the release of the Gold CD, and TCP/IP support with it to increase the overall number of people playing SEIV, and to therefore increase the number of people playing all types of multiplayer SEIV.

Geoschmo
PBW Admin Team

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

To be honest I think TCP/IP is more a draw for folks who don't have SE:IV now because of that feature. Myself, and most turn based folks I know, really don't have the time to sit back and wait for turns to process in a live game.

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Richard:
To be honest I think TCP/IP is more a draw for folks who don't have SE:IV now because of that feature. Myself, and most turn based folks I know, really don't have the time to sit back and wait for turns to process in a live game.<hr></blockquote>

I wonder if TCP/IP support will be stable enough to leave the client/host running for days(assuming you have a DSL or cable connection). If one can play like that, it's pretty much the same as PBW but with less hassle. You come to your computer, you see a new turn, you submit your orders -- the rest is taken care of by the game. No manual uploads/downloads. If the TCP/IP support can do that for me, I'll be quite happy about it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

I might be able to play a TCP/IP game every so often, but for the most part I'll be sticking with PBW. I don't think adding TCP/IP will cut into the number of people using PBW, though I suppose time will tell on that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Eric/LL
PBW UI Guy

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

Huh, you know, you can actually save a TCP/IP game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Aub:


I wonder if TCP/IP support will be stable enough to leave the client/host running for days(assuming you have a DSL or cable connection). If one can play like that, it's pretty much the same as PBW but with less hassle. You come to your computer, you see a new turn, you submit your orders -- the rest is taken care of by the game. No manual uploads/downloads. If the TCP/IP support can do that for me, I'll be quite happy about it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr></blockquote>

[ 04 December 2001: Message edited by: [K126]Mephisto ]</p>

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

Will the new TCP/IP allow for tactical combat against human players, then? That would be sweet.

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Kimball:
Will the new TCP/IP allow for tactical combat against human players, then? That would be sweet.<hr></blockquote>
As of the current beta Version, no.

No idea if he plans to change that. That would require some extensive rewrite of the code methinks. Currently TCP/IP is simultaneous tun based, but the game automagically handles the sending and receiving of game and player files, with a chat function thrown in for good measure. So anything you can't do in a sim turn game, you can't do in TCP/IP, ie. tactical combat.

Geoschmo

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

Most of the older threads about TCP/IP broke down into two camps:

"We want TCP/IP!"

vs.

"Why would anyone want to play SE IV that way?"

I don't expect to see any significant drop in the number of PBW players.

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

For most of us would love to paly TCP/IP when we can but since we usually can't PbW is what to do.

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

For most of us would love to paly TCP/IP when we can but since we usually can't PbW is what we will usually do.

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

Will the new TCP/IP allow for turn based based games or just simultaneaous? Either way, it sounds like this will make it a lot easier to play.

Also, does this allow games to be played directly over the internet, then, I assume?

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Kimball:
Will the new TCP/IP allow for turn based based games or just simultaneaous? Either way, it sounds like this will make it a lot easier to play.

Also, does this allow games to be played directly over the internet, then, I assume?<hr></blockquote>Read my post below responding to your original question. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geoschmo

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

That answered the question. Had I read a little more closely, my Last post wouldn't have been needed. Thank you Geoschmo.

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

I would be really nice if games could be played with both TCP/IP and PBW. When all players have time there could there be an TCP/IP sprint and after that the game would continue as normal PBW game.

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Zarix:
I would be really nice if games could be played with both TCP/IP and PBW. When all players have time there could there be an TCP/IP sprint and after that the game would continue as normal PBW game.<hr></blockquote>That has been suggested. I would like to see it as well. Don't know yet if it's going to happen. As it is programmed right now it can't be done.

Geoschmo

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

I hope they get the TCPIP worked out for tatical combat. This would be a great strength for this game. Are they close to it ??? ( Sorry just back so I have not had the time to read every thread for the Last 10 days. )

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

Hmmm, I havent really played SE4 for quite some time but I check back here from time to time to see whats going on. I was really excited to see that the Gold Edition was going to be released with TCP/IP play. A couple of my friends had been holding off on SE4 as it was something that supposedly going to be added and then never was.

Unfortunately, the biggest reason for direct connections like that is not going to be there...Tactical Combat. IMO, this is a large mistake. I would wager that the bulk of the TCP/IP crowd (who prolly do indeed differ from them PBEM/PBW crowd) want to play with the tactical option. To not include it is probably enough to dissuade me (and others) from getting it. If I wanted to play with simultaneous turns, I could do that now via PBW, but, IMO, there is something decidedly lacking in the game without the Tactical Engine.

At any rate, here is my emphatic vote for enabling Tactical Combat in TCP/IP mode. The design and research system in the game are absolutely incredible and it seems an almost criminal shame not to let players use their designs to the fullest in the one area the counts the most...playing against other people.

My $.02

Talenn

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

Tatical Combat with tcp/ip is not really possible...

Consider:

What happens when two or more empires attack you in different locations at more or less the same time? How will that work? Would one person have to wait and twidle their thumbs until the other player was finished with another battle? It would take far too much time and defeat the purpose of having quick tcp/ip play...

Also, there is just too many variables to be consider - would it happen instantaneously? Would all the tatical combats be executed at the end of a turn...I don't really see how it could work - unless the game was real time...

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

well, if you look at how tactical combat works in a non-simultanious game, it would probably work something like that. when it comes down to it, a simultanious game will always be faster than a round-robin one, wither its PBW or IP. i would guess it would have to work more like the single player style of play rather than the multiplayer round-robin style, and combats would occur as soon as ships moved ontop of each other.

but if thats not to be, then its not to be. i will probably stick to PBW even if there is tactical combat.

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>What happens when two or more empires attack you in different locations at more or less the same time <hr></blockquote>

Can't happen. Tactical combat is only an option in sequential mode; you cannot have more than one empire attacking (or doing anything at all, for that matter) in that mode.

The question about when combat would resolve works out the same way as normal- instantly.

Phoenix-D

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

I do not see a reason why the 3 people cannot fight it out at once. ( Combat is still turn based ) and why it is going on everyone else will be fixing their emipres up. And speeking of tcpip and time. Is there anyway to control the lenght of turns. Say 6 seconds a planet or something.

Here is hoping for tatical combat in tcpip mode.

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tesco samoa:
I do not see a reason why the 3 people cannot fight it out at once. ( Combat is still turn based ) and why it is going on everyone else will be fixing their emipres up. And speeking of tcpip and time. Is there anyway to control the lenght of turns. Say 6 seconds a planet or something.

Here is hoping for tatical combat in tcpip mode.<hr></blockquote>Tactical combat in multiplayer TCP/IP is possible with an extensive rewrite of the game itself. As pointed out below Tactical does not occur in simultaneous games at all, and TCP/IP has to be simultaneous currently. You would either have to build in functionality for TCP/IP into turn based, or allow Tactical combat for Simultaneous games. But either way you do it, anybody not physically involved in the ongoing tactical combat would have to be completely idle, aka twiddling their thumbs.

If it's turn based, only the peson who's turn it is will be able to play, and anyone they attack during that turn. If it's simultaneous, then everybody issues their orders, and if any combat results then the parties involved resolve each round of combat in turn until all are done. Then the turn is over and everyone gets to give orders again.

This down time for non-involved players IMHO is the biggest drawback to any suggestion of allowing tactical combat in TCP/IP games. It's just not practical in a turn based or simultaneous game. Unless the game is limited to 2 players.

Geoschmo

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

True True. Down time can be done correcty.

Extra time to fix the empire and/ or chat.

And the players will understand this going into the game.

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

Time to chat, yes. Fix your empire, no. You can't have access to your empire at all.

In a turn based multiplayer game only the player who's turn it is can do anything. If tactical were implemented then the defender or any other players with ships in that sector could move his ships during combat obviously, but nobody else.

In a simultaneous multiplayer game you only make changes to your empire during the order phase. Combat occurs during the movement phase. If tactical were implemented then the movement phase would pause for each round of combat which would be resolved by the parties involved, but nobdy else would have access to their empires to do anything.

So you see it is technically possible, but not very efficent. Of course as you say everybody would know that going in. I suppose they could chat or cruise the internet while the guys with ships fight it out.

I also suppose the simultaneous turns turns could be broken down even further. Instead of turns Lasting a month, they would be broken down into days. Instead of giving orders for the whole month, each day would tick by and you would have the option of moving ships that had movement available. No ships could move more than one space per day, but faster ships would have movement available more frequently during the month than slow ones. Build and research queues could be accessed once a month.

It wouldn't eliminate the down time, but it would space the combats out more so you didn't have them all together at once. I wouldn't want to be the one to code that beast though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geoschmo

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

It would be like a hotseat game on different machines...and would take lots and lots of time - kind of defeating the purpose of tcp/ip unless you have lots of hours sitting in front of the computer and don't mind waiting...

Imagine how long it would take in a ten player game? Each person's turn Lasting 10-15 minutes? You'd be sitting around doing nothing for almost two hours between turns...

Tatical Combat with tcp/ip sounds cool and would be fun, but it's just not very pratical in a game like Space Empires IV...

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Tatical Combat with tcp/ip sounds cool and would be fun, but it's just not very pratical in a game like Space Empires IV...<hr></blockquote>Why couldn't you do tactical combat in a simultaneous game? No long waits for your turn, and the tactical combat together. You could maybe set it up so that other players who can see the sector (those with spysats, vehicles or allies in system) would be able to watch the Combat, as it happens, even though they are not physically involved.

Also, you might be able to have multiple tactical combats running in parallel, as long as the outcome of one won't affect the other.

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

Mr SJ,

What would happen say, if you're already in a tatical combat and someone else decides to attack you in another system? What would happen then?

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

Good point Kwok. But even beyond that SJ, we aren't saying you couldn't do it. Just that it wouldn't be very practical. It wouldn't be very fast and that's what TCP/IP is supposed to be about.

But if you don't care about the speed and the tactical combat is your reason for wanting TCP/IP, then I can see your point. I just haven't heard any indication from Aaron that it's even being considered. Although I am by no means in close contact with Aaron so the fact that I haven't heard it means nothing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geo

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

TCPIP is not about speed it is about connectivity.

Sim game with tatical combat would be perfect.

Options like Set turn lenght and Last person to complete turn nag. You could have a clock counting down on the screen to let you know how much time you have left to complete your orders. Ships move out and combat occurs on what day the combatants meet.

When combat is about to start you are given the option of computer resolve, surrender or tatical combat. All combat between each empire is queed up and completed. If their is more than one battle between completed different empires say a-b and c-d then the two battles take place at the same computer time.This contines until the end of the month. Empires E and F have no combat so they can work on their turn or chat etc...

That would be a tcpip game. You do not play SEIV for a quick game.

So the ablility to save the game and carry it on at a later date would be very important.

P.S. Could this forum look into adding a spell check ???

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tesco samoa:
tatical ... lenght ... tatical ... queed ... their ... completed ... contines ... ablility

P.S. Could this forum look into adding a spell check ???<hr></blockquote>Sure, happy to help!

tactical ... length ... tactical ... queued ... there (wrong word) ... completely (wrong word?) ... continues ... ability http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

"What would happen say, if you're already in a tatical combat and someone else decides to attack you in another system? What would happen then?"

Then it waits. In sequentual, this isn't even an issue.

In sim-move, it could be, but given the option to go strategic (and an option to go strategic only if the other player selects the same) should help for things like unarmed colony ship warping into a close-in WP defense, to speed it up a bit.

Phoenix-D

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tesco samoa:
Options like Set turn lenght and Last person to complete turn nag. You could have a clock counting down on the screen to let you know how much time you have left to complete your orders. Ships move out and combat occurs on what day the combatants meet.<hr></blockquote>Starting to sound like a real-time game. Not that that is bad mind you. Just not what Space Empires has ever been.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>When combat is about to start you are given the option of computer resolve, surrender or tatical combat. All combat between each empire is queed up and completed. If their is more than one battle between completed different empires say a-b and c-d then the two battles take place at the same computer time.This contines until the end of the month. Empires E and F have no combat so they can work on their turn or chat etc...<hr></blockquote>Ok, but the only way to make this happen is to turn Space Empires into a real time game. You cannot allow c-d to do anything with their empires while A and c are fighting otherwise. Here's why...

Say A and B are allies and both at war with C. C sends a fleet to attack A's planet but is intercepted one sector away by fleet belonging to B. So if C wins the battle he goes on and wipes out the colony of A. If B wins the battle the colony is spared. If all this is supposed to be happening in the same turn, how can A be allowed to make changes to his empire and give orders to the colony until he knows the results of the battle between B and C.

This is the definition of a turn based game. And the reason turn based games have had phases (orders phase, movement phase, combat phase, etc.) since they were played with paper/pencils and dice.

Again, I am not saying your idea is bad. It sounds cool. I would love to play tactical against other humans. But I don't like real time games. That's a personal preferance. In a turn based game like Space Empires, you can't have tactical combat without...

1. Sitting at the same computer. (Hotseat)
2. Playing a two player only game.
3. Having everyone not personally involved in the combat sitting idle.

Geoschmo

[ 11 December 2001: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[ 11 December 2001: Message edited by: geoschmo ]</p>

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

It sounds like tesco is describing the Civilization series of games (or at least the FreeCiv Version) and/or MOO3. Both systems have a "Last player nag" feature, etc. Granted, Civ has VERY simple combat, so tactical combat isn't much of an issue. And MOO3 is set up to discourage if not prevent tactical combat (ISTR reading you could use "Focus Points" to take control of combats, but I don't know if that was only in single-player mode).

In any case, tesco's suggestions are similar to other turn-based strategy games with simultaneous turns. I have to disagree with geoschmo's assertion that the suggested features are more for "real-time" games. As far as the result of a tactical combat affecting other empires (like whether a particular fleet could go on to destroy a planet), ISTM the only thing lost would be time spent queuing up orders, since the orders wouldn't be carried out until the end of the turn anyway, and (if I'm reading all this correctly), the tactical combats are essentially taking place "between" the simultaneous turns (defining a "turn" as the time when a player can issue orders, and "between" turns is when orders are carried out). Under tesco's plan, players not involved in tactical combat just get to start their "turn" early. We could either make the game user-friendly and not allow a player to issue orders involving systems where combat is taking place, or let the player find out the hard way and avoid those systems on his own until after combat has been resolved.

Or maybe the players not directly involved in a tactical combat should take advantage of the time to get a drink, answer the call of nature, talk to their significant others, etc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Edit: Some players may already have to "sit idle" and wait for others, just because they have far less to do in a given turn; I ran into this problem in FreeCiv since my gaming group had one player who ended up creating twice as many cities as the rest of us, and micromanaged everything to death, so we were constantly waiting for him to finish his turn. Tactical combat just makes the problem more likely...

[ 11 December 2001: Message edited by: DirectorTsaarx ]</p>

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

Truefully if I had it my way.

Combat in space would jump you into a homeworld type game with the whole system mapped out and all items come into play.

You could micromanage it to death or just issue orders based on what is happening.

And ground combat would jump you into a Total A. game so you could battle it out on the ground. Or even a Steel Panthers type game.

Now that would be cool and I would probally be fired and/or divorced but cool non the less.

P.S. I am just complaining about the lack of tatical combat since the combat system currently is rather lacking that micro-manage control I want.

P.P.S. This topic also stirs up everyone's blood.

Also thanks for the spell check ( I laughed my .....well you get the idea)

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Later. Off to start my christmas shopping.

I am early this year......... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

Yeah, tesco samoa, that's my dream too.

Re: what are the advantages of TCP/IP
 

My dream and my life's nightmare.

I think we will see it some time in the next 10 years.

I can see the warning on the box. This game will take 3 to 5 years to play