Helicopter Ammo reload
 

Hi I have a question regarding reloading helicopters ordinance.

I was playing the Soviets vs Mujaheddin in 1979. I had a firebase with 6 mortars around an ammo truck. I also had an Mi-24 with rockets. I was using my Mi-24 and ran out of ammo so I flew back to the ammo truck and landed on it. A couple of turns later, it was reloaded and I went back into the action and ran out of ammo again. I did the same thing but this time, they were not reloading my helicopter. During the entire game I was using the mortars.

Is there a reason that the helo wouldn't re-arm? Is the a limit on how many times a helo can reload or maybe is there some limit on the ammo in the truck?

Thanks

Re: Helicopter Ammo reload
 

No, there is NO limit to supplying. What you just experienced is a mere probability check, where some units would be resupplied while the others not for a given turn. Also, since the number of your mortar units sucking the ammo is quite numerous, there's a lower probability that your helo will resupply at a given turn.

That's why I think putting some ammo units in a certain PBeM settings is quite gamey

Re: Helicopter Ammo reload
 

Wheni play pbem we usually agree on no ammo containers, makes uber weapons too powerful

Re: Helicopter Ammo reload
 

There is a protocol that I have forgotten, but it is possible that a unit such as J1 or J2 won't reload until an adjacent unit with a higher letter is fully replenished.

Re: Helicopter Ammo reload
 

Highest unit in database order - which can be different to letter, if some formation swapping and cross-attachments have been done.

Only the one unit is serviced - unlike the original games where you could park an infinite number of units around one ammo unit and all would get supply to an equal level.

I may well look into adding a negative test for either side of the equation firing as well (to stop folks banging away with arty and humping new shells into the racks at the same time). Load or fire - not both.

Andy

Re: Helicopter Ammo reload
 

Andy,
I agree with that idea. That way you will have to use your ammo WISELY or run out of indirect fire support.

Re: Helicopter Ammo reload
 

[/quote]

I may well look into adding a negative test for either side of the equation firing as well (to stop folks banging away with arty and humping new shells into the racks at the same time). Load or fire - not both.

Andy[/quote]

But when arty fires when rearming they give their position away, so it will take away getting an hit on a ammo unit and blowing up everything adjacent to it as it's rearming them.
This is like finding a gold mine in pbem games:)

Re: Helicopter Ammo reload
 

Well, I think the current supply mechanism (esp. for artillery) is quite, good... It simulates the status of "Stockpiled artillery", in which the artillery pieces have saved a good number of shells for later use, hence the "seemingly unlimited" number of rounds they possess in-game (without having to stop firing to "reload"; arty isn't like small arms in terms of reload mechanism, note)

Sure this rule should be discussed first prior to a PBeM game; and I DON'T think the application of which is realistic except for certain situations.

Re: Helicopter Ammo reload
 

From the AI game play point of view, I'm a propionate of ammo units as in "real life" being a part of the make up of my units, I've personally found over the years and across the patches I do pay a "reload penalty" in the the amount of turns regardless of the units experience level between fire missions for my artillery units is in the area of 1.5 to 2.5 turns. Given modern tech in rate of fire and reload capabilities this would seem reasonable as is in the game now and on par with any off map arty being used. The only advantage is sometimes my on map units might shoot longer. This is many times negated by the fact that the AI really doesn't like on map arty very much and you'll pay the price if you don't "shoot and scoot" which within the game is again a limiting factor as you pay a "movement penalty" as well.
With helos (tanks etc.) and ammo resupply even with experienced units I've seen this process take a min. of four to five full turns on average and it always seems it go from machine guns to ATGW in order of reload, also that's with no other units in the hex.
Maybe PBEM games play differently, but sometimes I feel as though we're talking about two different games within the game. And this is not a knock, I just don't have the time to devote to a PBEM game and god knows it's hard enough to get an AI game in these days. If I could change one "major" item in the game and had the smarts to do it, it would be to let the AI buy ammo units if it chose to, for at least it's armor and on map arty.
From a Player vs. AI prospective I think it works well as is, because in real life ARCHER, CAESAR, PALIDAN and others are paired with ammo carriers (And have automated reload systems and can still fire.) and also can fire, move and fire again in 30 to 45 seconds. This will only open up another can of worms of real life vs. game reality. And I don't enjoy fishing as much I used to anymore.

Regards,
Pat

Re: Helicopter Ammo reload
 

Haven't I said it depends on the pre-game agreement? It also depends on the battle circumstances; I have repeated that at least twice here. Well, you yourself just opened that can here I think. I am not against those who put ammo units on the battlefield, nor I am with those who chose to put. I myself had played PBeM with ammo units in; but that is of course from both part's agreement first, and that when the battle circumstances permit.

Putting ammo units on the battlefield can be either realistic, or, gamey. It depends.

No, there's NO such thing as two different games between PBeM and AI. The only thing different from those two is what we call "THE BRAIN". Gameplay etc they're still the same.

Re: Helicopter Ammo reload
 

Sorry, that came across wrong. In my long bas tic way simply meant to say I think the resupply system works as is in the game. Have had units fire while trying to resupply, however it's mostly been against targets threatening that unit vs targets of opportunity. When this occurs the supply process seems interrupted to a point where I've had to pull out that unit(s) to the rear and continue the resupply where issues of direct or indirect attack (Arty or Air.) won't further cause ammo use by it or have the resupply process interrupted due to fire suppression issues from the enemy. Didn't mean for it to be a referendum on to whether or not to use ammo resupply units that's personal perference. Using ammo resupply units in an AI game has it's own set of risks also besides the cost of your "resources".

Regards,
Pat

Re: Helicopter Ammo reload
 

People always talk about what is real. Because there is no real ammunition supplies in the rear?
A situation where supply is not available may be in a raid behind enemy lines. You have to differentiate what may be real to what we can disturb the game.
Greetings.

Re: Helicopter Ammo reload
 

But the game is about frontline combat lol.
If i put ammo carriers in the battlefield i tend to hide in in my rear areas, so retreating a unit to resupply may be OK in a long battle, but most engagements in the scale of the game will end before ammo does

Re: Helicopter Ammo reload
 

Yeah, pretty much like that. Agreed

Re: Helicopter Ammo reload
 

Personally, i don't use ammo units for reloading Atry,it's really unnessary unless you buy the uber low load-out MRL's and big guns and plan to pummel the opponent to the ground.

Which would be unrealisic and a gamey way to go,as these would be used in a very limited way to soften certain area's in a planned area of attack, not fired as the big kahuna all the time,not to mention having a very unhappy opponent who might scrap the game.

I guess some reason to spend alot on these "WMD's" if you will and buy some cheap ammo units to keep them firing.
There's so many other arty units that have more than ample rounds to last a battle and still pack a big punch IMO.

Re: Helicopter Ammo reload
 

I digressed from the original topic.

As far as Helo's rearming,with the AI do what you want,the AI will not pitch a ***** and nobody cares,
But when playing a human opponent in MBT there should be rules set on whether to "allow" or "not allow" rearming them.
Makes for less hard feelings:)

It's all relative to the size,turns and map size of the battle.
For example, for an 2K pt battle with less than 20 turns on a med.map,why would one need ammo resupply?

On larger scale battle,say 20k 40+ turns on a huge map maybe it's more reasonable.

Keep in mind fixed wing Air units cannot resupply between sorties,but helos can,it's doubtful that a helo could rearm several times in the span of time in this game.

Re: Helicopter Ammo reload
 

If you find yourself getting pwned by helicopters, consider changing strategy or at least tactics. If you find annoying the enemy re arming the artillery, attack them.
And always.
Buy more AD guys! more AD!!!

And because I know someone will post this, no, I am not referring to the thread starter.

Re: Helicopter Ammo reload
 

I think the case may be different between aircraft and helicopters.
The planes need runways for takeoffs and landings and no helicopters. The tracks for landing and takeoff of aircraft is likely to be far from the front. Helicopters may be in bases near the front.
What I do believe is that helicopters should not be able to rearm more than once in a battle of less than 30 turns.
I'll try to investigate real cases such as Vietnam, Afghanistan. So far I found nothing.

Re: Helicopter Ammo reload
 

Again I only speak to playing against the AI personally. Usually that is the case in those games. I normally only get one shot at reloading a helo. I tend though to set up my campaigns on a 17, 19 or mostly 21 battle cycle (Odd numbered to get the tie breaker if needed.), over that longer campaign cycle I will experience a handful of games at or just over 30 turns as such I might get a second reload in if any of my helos are still in the field. But given the choice in a "tight" game I'll give priority to my land based units for ammo resupply to keep what I have or make the final push to improve my victory conditions. There is no "in the rear with the gear" for my support units. But I don't needlessly sacrifice them either as I plan my routes around terrain concealment as much as possible.
It takes a little more time but I see the game as a "thinking man's" game much as I play chess if you will. Are most PBEM games generally of a shorter turn duration?

Regards,
Pat

Regards,
Pat

Re: Helicopter Ammo reload
 

Haha, ya that's the way I think I'm playing it too. It's a thinking man's game. The best thing and the most rewarding thing from playing SP is that when I conceive the plan thoroughly, and when I do some review or AAR from that battle. Kinda fun if I can make a short CG movie outta that battle or write a short military "novel" or "review booklet".

Also, the best feeling when playing PBeM is when your javelin can shoot right through the armor and WHAAAM, the damn thing explodes!!! :up:

Re: Helicopter Ammo reload
 

Admitedly helos can be reloaded rather frequently, why supply post is right on the front not traveling vey far. Pretty sure this did happen in real life without checking in Vietnam for instance when strategy changed & attacked citys helos were based at one popped up shot & back at reload point in 5 minutes. Or how about Black Hawk Down situation in Somalia think base was pretty close then not sure.
Simple agreement between players can sort ammo reloads while not entirely realistic Dumps bunkers only allowed if defending makes reload times long if have missiles. More complex & can of course cheat play with people & only thing we change names of is ammo supply vehicles. Arty Sam ATGM Arms - only use to supply right type of unit keeping simple ATGM includes helos Arms is tanks AFVs. Never used but could also agree say only one reload allowed.

Re: Helicopter Ammo reload
 

I know during Gulf I the USMC had forward resupply/rearm sites for AH-1's.

Three trucks, 1 fuel, 1 ammo, 1 basic maintenance.
They operated just out of mortar/light artillery range of the front.
Helo radios for resupply, resupply unit gives them a grid coordinate, trucks pull in, helo lands, refuel & rearm, helo returns to combat, trucks move to the next location.

The resupply column intentionally DID NOT set up a "permanent" resupply point.