LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

I was hoping to do some modding, and never really satisfied with how Oceania simply disappears in the LA. So I decided to stretch MA Oceania into a new LA nation. I'm interested in your balance opinions, since testing against the AI is fairly pointless.

The general concept is that pushed to the edges of the oceans by R'lyeh, the Capricorns turn to blood magic and welcome demons into their nation.

http://i.imgur.com/h4SXK.png

Troops:
Oceanian Triton - 10g 2r - vanilla
Merman - 10g 3r - vanilla
Wave Warrior - 13g 19r - vanilla
Demonic Triton - 20g 31r - A size three unit to guard against tramplers. Wears a bronze cuirass, so fairly well protected. I'm considering giving them resize 2 to cut down on rcost. Aquatic only.
Bronze Sentinel - 15g 30r - Heavy infantry with castle def bonus.
Pearl Guardian - 65g 47r - Sacred heavy cavalry. Ichtycentuars, so they have recuperation. Lance + magic sword. Also a patrol bonus. These guys are pretty awesome, but you'll probably only ever be able to recruit 2/turn from most forts.
Pearl Gatherer - 20g 10r - Cap only. Wields two magic weapons, one does double to magic beings. High MR
Ichtydevil - 55g 29r - Cap only. Amphibious, size 3. Bronze cuirass and trident. Gain a tail attack when they leave the water. Summonable with national Blood 2 spell.
Sea Fiend - 65g 13r - Cap only. Four armed aquatic size 3 demon. More combat effective and easier to mass than the Ichtydevils, but can't leave the water. Summonable with a Blood 2 national spell. Also shows up as a multihero with F1 & 100% B/W.

Commanders
Merman Scout - 25g 3r - vanilla
Wave Lord - 45g 19r - vanilla
Demonic General - 45g 31r - 10 regular leadership, but 80 undead leadership. Aquatic only.
Pearl Lord - 65g 47r - Only 80 leadership, but is cavalry. Possible thug, I suppose. Sacred. Amphibious.
Merman Priest - 65g 1r - vanilla H1
Bishop Fish - 120g 1r - vanilla H3
Mermage - 175g 1r - vanilla W2N1 100%AWEN
Capricorn - 350g 5r - Vanilla (i.e. same as MA). W2N3 110%AWEN
Black Capricorn - 300g 1r - Cap only. The blood hunters and only guys who can cast the national blood spells. they only ave poorleader but ok undead leadership. B2 W1 200% WEN. They lose a point in every path except blood when they leave the water.

Summons
Devilfish - Aquatic demon, animal. Get 5 for 10 slaves. Research level 1. B2W1. Size 2, just a bite attack, but has 15 strength & 22 hp.
Ichtydevil - Same as above, get 3 for 15 slaves. Level 2 spell, B2W1. Can only be summoned underwater. Good way to get around gold cost, though will still have to pay upkeep.
Sea Fiend - Get 3 for 15 slaves. Level 2 spell, B2W1.
Great Devilfish - Size 3, autocasts twist fate at start of battles, fights with poisoned bite and paralyzing tail. Get 1 for 2 slaves. The trade-off is spending caster-turns to slowly gather better units versus getting 5 at a time with the lesser fish. Level 3 spell.
Infernal Culler - Amphibious flying assassin. Solid thug, but no leadership or casting. Full equipment slots. 30 slaves for one, research level 5. Will need to boost a caster to B3.
Blood Vortex - Amphibious flying thug. Ethereal, size 4, comes with B1 and regenerates/heals when in watershape. Used to be too powerful, but I've not used it since I nerfed it. Available to all nations, but can only be summoned underwater. Need B4 W3, so boosting will be necessary.

I also included a unique pretender in the Dread Vortex. It's a size 6 immortal SC, but has weakened casting by giving it a -2 pathboost in its two starting paths. Also only starts with 1 dominion. Aquatic only and three misc slots. I've made it mindless to protect against R'lyeh's madness dominion.

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

Does bloodhunting/blood magic work underwater? That said, I think it is an interesting idea and they should have some blood magic even if it doesn't work under water. They can just do it on land when they get the chance, but probably need some other stuff as well.

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

just some quick feedback, after looking at it.
1. you should definitely mention that the only way to bloodhunt uw is to use shift+B since the command doesnt show up normally, so its kinda a bug that allows it.
2. i'm kinda worried that this nation is too good against LA ryleh early on, then isnt very good later game against land nations. Having basically MA oceania's craptastic magic and then some B2 cap only isn't that great. maybe you should add a B random to mermages so that they do get some cheaper bloodhunters. To balance it out, maybe lower the MR of their guys to 11 mainly, not 12, so that ryleh has a chance?

just my 2c from taking a small look

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

There are some serious thematic and balance problems here:

Theme
(1) Bloodhunting UW is only possible via an exploit. You aren't supposed to be able to do it.
(2) Bloodspells are not supposed to be castable underwater. Bloodspells which summon aquatic creatures are extremely unthematic.
(3) Giving them the same capricorn as MA as a hire anywhere just makes it feel like an extension of MA rather than a unique nation. Ditch these guys.
(4) Nation needs something more. So they turned to blood magic - shouldn't this have some impact on their social structure beyond just Black Capricorns?

Balance
(1) Black Capricorns are awful. 300g for 5 total paths is a disgrace. And as the only blood mage being capital only really hurts the nation's ability to bloodhunt.

Recommendations:
Thematically the only thing to do with blood is to move them onto land and ditch the aquatic part. Force a coastal start if that's modable.

Black Capricorns: B3W2 + 200% BWEN. No out-of-water penalty for magic (its bad for balance for MA too). Recruit anywhere. Make these guys the linchpin of the nation. Might deserve a slight cost increase to 320g. Give them a cooler name so this doesn't feel like yet another 'its Pangaea, but UW' rip off.

Merman Priest -> Corrupted Merman Priest: Make them B1H1.

Ditch Bishop Fish or similarly make them corrupted. Heck, make them demons. Possessed Bishop Fish: B1H3 amphibious or something like that. Give them cool flavor text.

Mermage: Make them W2B1 + 100% WENB

Capricorn: Ditch, this nation is caught in a downward spiral, no uncorrupted reminders from better days.

Honestly haven't even looked at troops yet, but the nation really needs its theme clearly defined, and then the commanders aligned to fit.

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

i for one dont mind being able to bloodhunt underwater. i think it makes sense thematically, just say its merslaves or something. I always imagined LA oceania being an uw bloodhunt nation anyways

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

I 2nd Squirrelloid feedback.

I think UW blood hunt is not thematic. blood hunt is about getting and sacrificing human virgins, not cat fish, mergirls or what not.

Using this exploit in MP is really bad form, I wouldn't expect any player to be doing that.

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

Awesome first post! Not only "modding sounds interesting", but "I've done a whole mod including sprites"!

I haven't had a chance to play with this mod yet, but personally I have no problem at all with the underwater blood hunting. Most nations aren't meant to do it - but maybe LA Oceania has struck a deal with demons to accept mergirl blood in place of human virgins. Why not?

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

Besides, while blood hunting may be about "human virgins", blood hunting in surface provinces with non-human poptypes seems to work just fine. Lizard virgins, even icthyid virgins as long as they live on the coast not in the ocean.

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

Personally I don't see any big thematic problem with UW blood sacrifice. It's thematically different from what the designers originally intended, but that's not necessarily bad.

I would think that in any game using this mod, it would be a good idea for the admin to clearly say upfront "This nation relies on an exploit that some players don't mind using and some do. Does anyone mind if we include it?" As long as no-one in that game minds, there's no harm. But surprising people with it may not be a good idea.

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

I object more to casting blood spells underwater than bloodhunting underwater.

You may notice none of the current blood spells are useable underwater, and bloodslaves become gems instead of units when in an underwater battle and can't be accessed for casting.

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

[quote=Squirrelloid;774467]I dont get why this doesnt work. Just imagine if you will, a blood mage, floating in the deep ocean, over an altar. He sacrifices the mermaid, and is suddenly literally swimming in blood, the magical energy of the blood is surrounding him. i feel like that's almost *more* effective cause he is swimming in blood, not just standing over it.

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

[quote=PriestyMan;774494]
Thanks Priestly, that's exactly the idea behind the national pretender and the level 7 summon - swirling pools of sacrificial blood.

You can't use blood magic in UW battles, but by the time you've got your blood economy going you'll probably have a fairly strong hold on the oceans anyway.

Your point earlier about too strong early and too weak on land is fair though. I'm thinking about adding some more high-level national spells. Probably a farsummon and a stygian paths equivalent. I also agree with squirreloid about differentiating some more from MA.

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

mergirl this mergirl that: they are merMAIDS guys, thus why mermen is actually a bastardised form to begin with. Terrible.

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

Would you prefer Merbutlers?

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

I believe that would be mermanservants...

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

I don't like Pearl Guardian/Pearl Lord - sounds too pure. Maybe Abyssal would be a better adjective?

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

Note: I'm running this with CBM 1.83. If this is causing problems then you should look into mod compatibility with CBM at a minimum.

Ok, some balance feedback:
Capital Sites:
50gpt isn't a good idea. I don't care if its based on the pearl sites elsewhere, it just isn't a good idea. Too abuseable with order + other cash related scales.
Similarly, 4s isn't a good idea when there are no astral mages in the nation. Similar problems already plague LA Man. Getting gem income your national mages cannot use is bad balance.

Commanders:
Demonic General: W1D1 for 45g? Woh. Ignore everything else, that's too much magic for its price.
Pearl Lord: E2 sacred thug commander for 65g? OMGWTFBBQ. No, seriously, its an even better researcher than the demonic general (less upkeep for being sacred) *and* its a thug. For a bargain basement price of 65g? Woh.
--Also, turns into a golden Naga on land. This can't be right. .dm has #landshape 2812. Should probably be 2612.

Units:
Starting army is too powerful. Took on a greater number of amber-clan tritons by itself and won. (No additional recruits at all).

zOMG Pearl Guardians. Ok, the encumbrance is obscene, but an E9N4 bless on these guys just eats stuff. I've been expanding with 5 of them + priest - meaning you can pump out an expansion party *every turn*. And you'll have 2 expansion parties on turn 2 (initial army + recruit 5-6 and a leader to send with your scout prophet).

So, you take P3, because you do. And O3.

Play:
I'm running a W4E9N4 imprisoned Wave Lord (i think - the W1E1 base one) with Dom 6, O3P3C3Mf2. I've got 5 castles in the middle of year 2 (~turn 18) with labs and temples. I'm just pumping out pearl lords as researchers at the moment while continuing to make Pearl Guardians asap to invade the land.

Now, obviously the AI can't deal, but its clear the early game is too good.

I can't even be bothered to do anything with blood magic. The mages are too expensive for too little payout, and they're capital only so its a pain to actually do any bloodhunting.

I also can't be bothered to really look at most of the units because Pearl Guardians are just so good. There's no reason to use anything else. And the aquatic only units are inherently useless, because they're aquatic only.

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

ok, talked with squirrell, he had mod problems, and the stuff about the E2 pearl lords and demonic general stuff was obviously a conflict. so you can disregard that part.

stuff about the troops though is kinda true. i dont think LA ryleh stands a chance against their regular recruits. IMO buff their mages, especailly the blood aspect, and nerf the troops a little

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

so, the landshape on the Pearl Lord is definitely a mod error. Managed to edit my above post.

I'm still getting magic on the commanders even when i disable CBM. I don't know what's going on. No mod is active but this mod. I think your chosen monster #s may be conflicting with existing monsters, fwiw. You might want to check.

Edit: Restarted Dom3, that seems to have cleared the problem. Ug.

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

Check the .dm file, I found the same problem when I ran it with CBM, and switched all the monster numbers to 26xx from 28xx. I may have forgotten to copy this change to the uploaded version.

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

Yes, but what does the mage do when a swam of sharks sense the blood in the water and come to tear the mage apart?
UW blood summoning sounds very dangerous to me...

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

Actually this is a perfect explanation for why blood rituals but not battle spells work underwater. Try sacrificing during combat and you'll get a cloud of bloody water which a) quickly disperses in the currents and b) attracts sharks to 'distract' you. But when casting in a lab you retreat to a specially prepared room and close the doors, solving both these problems. That seems pretty cool to me.

(Of course if we want to be really picky the amount of blood in one sacrifice must be tiny comapred to the amount flying around a battlefield anyway, but who wants to be really picky?)

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

Here is an updated version. I've adjusted the price/stats of some of the units and added a blood hunter mermage. Also some higher level blood spells.

I've statted two more summons, but don't really have the time to make sprites for them, so they're unimplemented and untested.

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

treant- if your serious about this mod and balancing it, you really should take the time to go through the comments here and talk about each one. squirrell for example, may be a little rude, but he has good thoughts.

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

New Version:

The good:
*Diverse nationally useful gem income, yay!
*recruit anywhere blood hunter, yay!
*cap-site resource boost - UW nations frequently get screwed on resources, so this is a good idea.
*Gold increase on pearl guardians

The not so good
*enc increase on pearl guardians
*still retains vestiges of unfallen past: mermages, bishop fish, capricorns
*Demonic tritons in starting army probably too strong, at least in those numbers
*CBM mod conflict: weapons on pearl gatherer, pearl guardian
*Black Capricorn, acolyte of the shoals overcosted

The weird:
*pearl guardian has a hoof attack in sea form? Seems kind of weird.

Suggestions:
*Black Capricorn needs more magic or to come down in price. A 25% random is insufficient.
*Acolyte of the shoals is an 80g commander at the highest.
*Pearl Guardians encumbrance is really out of line, especially with current CBM. I'd suggest you give them base enc. 5 but make them #mounted (note that you'll want to decrease defense to compensate for the +3 for mounted), which will make them more in line with other sacred cavalry. Alternately, decrease the enc. on the armor they're wearing and go back to base enc. 3.
*Having Black Capricorns cap only but regular capricorns recruit everywhere really takes away from the uniqueness of the nation. Similarly, mermages being unchanged from MA and the continuance of bishop fish add up to a nation that doesn't actually seem that impacted relative to MA, all fluff to the contrary. I'd suggest the following:
**Make your mermages be W2B1 and their random include blood.
**Make black capricorn recruit anywhere and capricorns cap only, if not eliminated entirely.
**Do something to bishop fish. Eliminate, corrupt, or something.

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

Idea seems quite good. Not tested yet, but some thoughts occurred right now:
Using Abyssal in unit(s) name as somebody here suggested. Much more thematic than "pearl".
Generally, I think undersea Blood magic/sacrifice quite thematic. After all, it was present in real world. But - probably the game designers had some reasons for not using it in the basegame, so bugs are quite possible here.
I do not think 4-armed demon is thematic here. However, there are a score of quite demonic-looking or called deepwater animals. E.g., there is a squid called "sea devil" - actually, it's quite small, but... Some extinct animals may also be handy. I'd also look into, say, Polynesian mythology.
Maybe, too, blood vortex should look more like vortex in a sea and less like a tornado?
Maybe more later.

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

any chance of getting the homecoming spell to work soon? also, you should maybe make the great devilfish sprite bigger to differentiate it from the normal ones.

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

So i really like this mod, and the idea of an UW blood nation. in fact, i like it so much i can't wait to see it become more balanced etc. so i decided to make some adjustments of my own. I hope you dont mind, i am of course giving all the credit to you, and if you add anything new, i will fold it into my rework. I made a lot of changes, feel free to look or comment. the thread for it is here:
http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/...?showtopic=426

Thank you for this great mod

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

Hey, some guys said you were on IRC the other day talking about me editing you mod. I dont want you to think that i am stealing it in any way. I give you full credit for it, and that is the first thing i say in my posting of my version of it.
Basically i apologize for being too impatient. I loved the concept and you didnt seem to be too keen on updating it and making it MP playable etc, which i understand if you are just busy and dont have a ton of free time.
That said, anything you add, i am sure will be really awesome and probably much better than what my limited modding skill can produce, so i surely dont want you to stop improving it.

Btw, if you want to talk more on IRC, i am usually on pretty much all day (US Time)

Oh, and you should allow pm's on your profile

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

I've not done anything to this mod since May. You can play around with it, but I think you all are missing the thematic point - blood magic is evil, and Oceania's rulers wouldn't be dealing with demons if it weren't for the madness and death R'lyeh causes. Much like LA Ulm is a nation whose mages and vampires are (meant to be) hidden from the population.


I haven't checked your changes but I recommend giving the Black Capricornss a 200% random pick (like I originally intended, but was not available at the time). I also think #onebattlespell Sabbath Slave works well on the acolytes.

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

I was bored so I made some minor adjustments to the mod, mostly fixing spelling errors and changing MR values to things that make more sense against LA R'lyeh.

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

Frozen said I should actually give a change log, so with the latest iteration I'll give one:

MR is higher for demonic/demonically altered units. From lowest to highest:
Devilfish 13,
Demonic Triton 15
Greater Devilfish 16
Sea Fiend 17
Inferno Born 17

Ichtydevils have 100% FR now and heat-2 in water instead of useless heat-1.
Blood-Bathed Kings have 100hp, reinvig 5(from 75 hp, reinvig 2)
Unit slots tightened up so the mod doesn't actually run into Ulm Reborn's slots anymore.
Blood Vortexes now just as good on land as on water.
Summon Aboleth cheaper at 24 gems
Various bug fixes and typo fixes.

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

Whee, another iteration! FL wanted a baseline to work off of, and I figured I might as well put in the changes he told me about. So...

Capricorns have evolved to Survivor Capricorns which are exactly the same but don't go insane!
Acolytes of the Shoal now are F1B1H1 and cost 140g, up from 115. Might need more, who knows?
Black Capricorns are now W1B2 200% EWN 100% EWNB 10% EWNB
New national spell! Low-research Shark Attack in the blood tree that requires W3B2!
New national spell! Semi-low research battle summon that gives you a Blood Vortex! It's, uh, pretty powerful at the moment. I don't have a unit number free to make a 'lesser blood vortex', which might be a good idea. As a reminder to me for later if we do make a lesser Blood Vortex, full Blood Vortexes used to have BV 3, not BV 0. Might need to go back up, who knows?

Re: LA Oceania - seas of blood
 

Whee, five in a row! FrozenLama has been giving good suggestions and I've just been implementing them.

1.24: Blood Vortex as commander summons is out. Battle summon only! Nerfed just a little bit(mostly taking out the fear aura) and I think they might be okay now. Really powerful against unscripted stuff but some cleverness on LA R'lyeh's part can greatly reduce their effectiveness.